Speed modules cost and tier1-2-3 balancing

[Nexarius]

Is it intended that they dont have the same ratios?

[Harkonnen]

Thanks for noticing that. Fixed for coming release.

[sillyfly]

Are you sure it's a bug? viewtopic.php?t=4734

[Harkonnen]

I think it is because there is no such balancing between tier-1 and tier-2 modules (and when you reach tier-3 mass-production - you are rich enough to not really care if it would be 4 or 5). Looks more like a typo to me because all tier-2 recipes consume exactly 4. Also, that discussion is 3 years old, many things have change since that time.

[MatHack]

I always figured it was because Speed Module 1 are used for Assembling Machines 3 and Rocket Control Units.
Those are the only items, besides the one-time Power Armor Mk2 craft, that use any of the modules as an ingredient.

[Harkonnen]

In that case i think it would be logical to put 3 on tier-2 recipe (as opposed to 4 on all others) or probably remove tier-2 modules completely from the game and have proportions like 10/15/20 on advanced-modules - does anybody use tier-2 modules at all or goes straight to tier-3 with a bit of tier-1? (that's just thoughts)

[StoneLegion]

In that case i think it would be logical to put 3 on tier-2 recipe (as opposed to 4 on all others) or probably remove tier-2 modules completely from the game and have proportions like 10/15/20 on advanced-modules - does anybody use tier-2 modules at all or goes straight to tier-3 with a bit of tier-1? (that's just thoughts)

I personally never touch tier 2 I always skip from 1 to 3. If there was say a 1 - 3 -4(or 5) I might consider it that 5 being something stupid end game. I like to someday see really expensive you beat the basic game play (that some people call it) and here is some really expensive things you can make with resources outside of just rocket launches / research.

But to answer your question I never use tier 2's.

[Dimanper]

In that case i think it would be logical to put 3 on tier-2 recipe (as opposed to 4 on all others) or probably remove tier-2 modules completely from the game and have proportions like 10/15/20 on advanced-modules - does anybody use tier-2 modules at all or goes straight to tier-3 with a bit of tier-1? (that's just thoughts)

I also don't use tier 2, and barely even use tier 1 modules. In most cases i just jump from assemblers 2 without modules to assemblers 3 with production modules 3 + beacons with speed modules 3. But with that said, please, don't remove tier 2 from the game and don't just make their cost built-in into tier 3 recipes, because i enjoy logistics of modules production facilities with managing 3 different tiers getting produced in right ratios and stuff like that. Much more interesting than just setting 1 straight belt line with circuits and crafting just 1 item from them (like many other facilities in the game). At the end of the day, it's all what factorio is about: figuring out and making chains of (probably) efficient poduction units.
Better guys do something with efficiency modules, since i don't think i used them even once. Why would i, if i can just craft few solar panels and accumulators at the cost of these modules and benefit more energy this way? Or maybe it's just me and other people do find cases in which they are useful and actually use them.

I think it would be better if the game somehow motivated players to use tier 1 and 2 modules, like it does with assemblers (i use all 3 of them in all my games, since they are reasonably far from each other in tech tree and have good scaled costs). Right now i find next problem which keeps me from using them in my games: they are close to each other in tech tree. Yes, they have pretty noticeable difference in their pack requirements and costs of research, but at the time of completing tier 1 modules research, you don't really want to use them, since they are pretty expensive at this state of the game, and once you can afford to use tier 1 modules, you might as well just research tier 2 and tier 3 and use them instead. So i think you guys need to make different tiers of modules be viable at different states of the game. Maybe with the increase of tech cost / pack requirements / prerequisite techs for high tiers (like tier 3 tech requiring high tech packs in addition to increased to 500 packs cost). Or with reduced resource cost of lower tiers (with compensation to high tiers, of course).

[BenSeidel]

I never/rarely use T2 modules, so if they were gone I wouldn't notice.

[Aeternus]

In that case i think it would be logical to put 3 on tier-2 recipe (as opposed to 4 on all others) or probably remove tier-2 modules completely from the game and have proportions like 10/15/20 on advanced-modules - does anybody use tier-2 modules at all or goes straight to tier-3 with a bit of tier-1? (that's just thoughts)

I frequently use Tier 2 Efficiency modules. 2 of them in something like an Electric Furnace puts you exactly at the 80% energy reduction cap - useful to keep power consumption down in early to midgame factories before you get nuclear power going. But the same result could be achieved with 1 tier 3 and 1 tier 1 module, so as long as the tier 3 modules remain as accessible as tier 2's, the tier 2's can be omitted.

I use tier 1 modules all the time - they're cheap after all. 2 efficiency and 1 production per electric mine, works well.

[raid]

... I like to someday see really expensive you beat the basic game play (that some people call it) and here is some really expensive things you can make with resources outside of just rocket launches / research. ...

Maybe introduce bobmod's God Modules (just Tier 1) in the base game

[Selvek]

I use tier 2 speed in the mid game when production is still low and gradually replaced them with speed 3.

On another note, does anyone use efficiency 3 for anything? The benefits over efficiency 1 are minimal compared to the cost...

[FasterJump]

When I reach endgame, I use T2 productivity modules on electric mining drill mainly. I also use some T2 on furnaces, and on assemblers that doesn't consume a lot of ressources (copper wires for red circuits)
I use T2 efficiency modules on stuff to get the -80% energy cost.
Blue ones (speed) are the only ones that I don't use a lot.

[DjTeo]

The only usefulness of T2 was that they didnt need alien artifact like T3, now that alien artifacts removed there are no use of T2.

[NotABiter]

I frequently use Tier 2 Efficiency modules. 2 of them in something like an Electric Furnace puts you exactly at the 80% energy reduction cap

Same here. Also in pumpjacks. Also when using beacons I'll tend to use mostly T3 efficiency modules (in a mix with T3 speed modules) in the beacons (and T3 productivity in the assembler/chem-plant/whatever), but will often use one or two T1 and/or T2 efficiency modules in the beacons in order to reach the -80% power limit without spending unnecessary resources on T3. It can also turn out the other way - full T3 efficiency modules and only enough room under the -80% for a T1 or T2 speed module, or even a mix of the two. (How it turns out depends on the type of production being beaconed as well as how many beacons you're using as well as what level of productivity module you're up to.) I also use T1/T2/T3 productivity modules based on progression - not just tech level but what I can afford at the time - I often have the tech for a given level of beacon long before I have the resources to mass-produce that level of beacon. (This is in part thanks to power armor.)

But the same result could be achieved with 1 tier 3 and 1 tier 1 module, so as long as the tier 3 modules remain as accessible as tier 2's, the tier 2's can be omitted.

No, that's not the same result - that's a (~2.5x) more expensive solution.

On another note, does anyone use efficiency 3 for anything? The benefits over efficiency 1 are minimal compared to the cost...

Yes, you need a lot of T3 efficiency modules in beacons if you want to max out productivity (in the resource amplification sense) while minimizing pollution (which requires hitting the -80% power limit -- with 4 T3 productivity modules in a factory, and due to the 50% derating of modules in beacons, you need to provide at least 800% worth of efficiency modules, e.g. 16 T3 efficiency modules, to pull power usage down to -80%). And then pushing pollution even lower (and speed higher) requires using a mix of efficiency and speed modules in any remaining beacon slots to push speed as high as possible while still maintaining that -80% power usage.

EDIT: While I sometimes use T3 efficiency modules in beacons to allow for more speed modules, I usually stick to mostly T2 efficiency modules in beacons because it's cheaper to get more production throughput by building more rather than building higher tier. Or another way of looking at it - the small reduction in pollution of going from T2 eff. to T3 eff. (which allows for more speed @ -80% power) often isn't worth the cost. There can be exceptions though - if one is space-constrained, power-constrained, not using beacons, or just needs a tiny bit more efficiency to squeeze in a T3 speed module, then T3 efficiency modules can make sense.

The only usefulness of T2 was that they didnt need alien artifact like T3, now that alien artifacts removed there are no use of T2.

Wrong - T2 are still cheaper, allowing you to get them with less resources and get them sooner and scale up your factory faster.

[QGamer]

In that case i think it would be logical to put 3 on tier-2 recipe (as opposed to 4 on all others) or probably remove tier-2 modules completely from the game and have proportions like 10/15/20 on advanced-modules - does anybody use tier-2 modules at all or goes straight to tier-3 with a bit of tier-1? (that's just thoughts)

For efficiency modules, I use T1 until I have enough resources to mass-produce T2's. I then replace all my T1's with T2's. I rarely use T3's as they are super expensive to craft, and so I use them mainly in machines that consume a lot of power. I use 2 T2's in a Level 2 Assembler when crafting something like Fast Transport Belts, which can't be productivitfied and only take half a second to craft. This gets me to the 80% power reduction. I would get the same effect with a T1 and a T3 but it would be much more expensive to make.

For speed modules, I usually prefer T1 or T2 if I have the electricity or efficiency modules to support them. I don't like to have my machines consume a lot of power.

For productivity modules, I prefer T1 or T2 because they don't increase power consumption as much. I really only use T3's for my Alien Science production, but since that was removed I don't use T3 productivity modules that much.

For mining drills, my favorite setup is to have 2 T2 efficiency modules and a T1 productivity module. Especially with the mining productivity research, I don't need productivity modules in miners as much, and having T3's in miners seems like a waste of resources (unless your super-megabase can make a gazillion modules a minute).

Personally, I like the T2 modules because they give the player a choice: do you want to save resources, save energy, or some balance in between?

[iceman_1212]

Tier 2 modules came in extremely handy in my playthrough on the new marathon setting.

[NotABiter]

Personally, I like the T2 modules because they give the player a choice: do you want to save resources, save energy, or some balance in between?

This is really the key point: Having meaningful choices to make makes playing the game more satisfying. Preserving and creating meaningful choice should be a guiding principle for the Factorio devs (and for anyone doing game design really).

Not only should T2 stay, I think there should probably be even higher tiers of modules (T4+) - but so expensive that they are only sometimes, even rarely, used. Why? Because that makes using the top tier module a meaningful choice rather than "the obvious and only right choice" as T3 modules appear to be now for so many players. (That's one thing I appreciate about the FactorioExtended mod set -- it's got higher tier assemblers and chemical plants and other things (though not modules), but for most cases I don't use the absolute highest tier stuff, in some cases I do. The highest tier is so expensive that it's not a "no brainer" to use, but it's also not so expensive that it never makes sense, and that remains true even in the "end game".)

[Harkonnen]

Ok, Tier-2 stays Now the question - should tier-2 speed module consume 3 tier-1 modules (instead of 4) or maybe 4 circuits instead of 5 to compensate for tier-1 speed modules consumption by other recipes?

[Tev]

Tier 2 modules came in extremely handy in my playthrough on the new marathon setting.

+1

Also compensating of spd1 consumption feels weird, I (and many others) spam eff1 modules all over the place, so I have always smaller spd1 production until rockets (which get their own spd1 assembly line).