[MOD 0.12.x] Science Overhaul Mod A.K.A Science Cost Tweaker

[nagapito]

\o/

When I get home I will try to get a report on the resources.

You removed evolution settings, maybe you should remove difficulty cost too and integrate it with factorio vanilla multiplier if it is not done automatically by the client when a player chooses a higher value.

[nagapito]

Desktop foreman is not updated to v15 yet..... no cost analysis

What I found:

• Active biopaste and bio-silicate extrace are on the wrong sub-group (science 3 instead of 5)
• Atomic sensors and laser emitter are missing the name resource
• Weapons testing circuits seem to be on the inverse order
• On one hand, a bit oil heavy but on the other hand, there is oil from coal... not sure
• Not sure about the waste recipes. Femto laser foci needs 6 iron and 4 copper but gives 4 copper waste that converts into 4 copper plates. This is a closed copper loop, so you only require an assembly at the side picking the waste and converting it back to plates. The small time difference is easly bypassed with diferent machines or modules. Maybe a small loss so it requires the need to bring copper?
• Active bio paste only requiring bio-silicate extract.... maybe some coal or sulfur catalyst to activate the biopaste?
• No uranium or uranium by-rpoducts being used.
• You could be very evil for high tech packs and require something to be dont in a nuclear reactor or some steam at such amounts that it needs to use the nuclear reactor
• make the waste actually be waste and worth nothing, like 0.1 or 0.2 plates but the recipes also give 10x more waste. This forces it to be something that you have in huge amounts, and need to actually build a 'recycling' area, annoying for being so much but not that worthless that you can just ignore it.

My 2 cents just looking at the recipes.

[Neemys]

Just a thought :

Regarding space science, as mod can change what player can obtain when launching a specific item. Why not, make 2-3 item to craft to obtain some material by launching them with rockets. Those materials could be used to craft the space science pack.
So player will need to take care what they launch so they have everything for science with your mod. Add a layer of complexity for the last pack ^^

[nagapito]

Just a thought :

Regarding space science, as mod can change what player can obtain when launching a specific item. Why not, make 2-3 item to craft to obtain some material by launching them with rockets. Those materials could be used to craft the space science pack.
So player will need to take care what they launch so they have everything for science with your mod. Add a layer of complexity for the last pack ^^

You mean, launch item A to receive B, item C to receive D, 10 fish to receive frozen fish and assemble space science pack with A+B+frozen fish?

I like it

[hoho]

You removed evolution settings, maybe you should remove difficulty cost too and integrate it with factorio vanilla multiplier if it is not done automatically by the client when a player chooses a higher value.

Well, the "difficulty" of SCT isn't quite the same as in vanilla. In SCT, the difficulty doesn't scale linearly - higher tier things will require MUCH more things at higher difficulty settings than jus a flat multiplier applied to everything.

Though expensive recipe versions would be nice to have.

I like it

Same here!

Perhaps something like different satellites/"rovers" for different ingredients. E.g something to collect solar winds, something to mine He3, something to mine palladium from asteroids etc. Of course, there won't really be any real mining-collecting, just a different type of "satellite" that would be sent up delivering different kinds of resources.

Any chance to get 5dim integration? It's currently the only "modpack" that seems to be fully released and working with 0.15. It has similar ores to bob but different intermediates.

[UberWaffe]

Desktop foreman is not updated to v15 yet..... no cost analysis
What I found:
...
My 2 cents just looking at the recipes.

Thanks, I'll fix the incorrect subgroups and names today.

As for the waste byproducts.
I'm not happy with them yet. I started doing a proper test-play yesterday (i.e. no commands or test scenarios) and found that they also currently feel like they take too long to process.
I'll be reworking their numbers a bit over the next few passes.

Thanks for pointing out the issue with productivity modules. Didn't think about the waste possibly being infinite resource potential. I'll fix this.

Biopaste <-> Bio-sillicate is just to throw furnaces in the production chain for gibs and giggles.

As for uranium products, see the expensive plans below.

Just a thought :

Regarding space science...

I've considered this, not sure how I want to do this yet.

• Specifically, I considered making the satellite return a remote control.
• You click the remote control on a spot.
• Satellite comes barrelling down with an asteroid in tow.
• Multiple atomic bombs levels of destruction, apocalypse and fun.
• Meteor ore deposit is created at the target location. Which can be mined and either processed into base ores, or made into space science packs.
• Maaayyybeee also space biters. But veeeerryyy maybe.

I'd have to get help with the animation and graphics though. Code wise I can follow the Orbital Ion Cannons mod in how this is done.

...
Well, the "difficulty" of SCT isn't quite the same as in vanilla. In SCT, ...
Any chance to get 5dim integration? It's currently the only "modpack" that seems to be fully released and working with 0.15. It has similar ores to bob but different intermediates.

I've not played 5dim before, so I'm not familiar with it. If you can tell me what the recipes for 5dim should be like, I can rather easily create a config option for it.

By far the most time consuming thing is figuring out what the recipes should be. Actually putting them in doesn't take that long.

Well, ignoring graphics. I like ignoring graphics.

As for the scaling. You explained it well.
The biggest gripe I have with the flat multiplier is that it really slows down the start game. (Other than that I think it actually works fine. Kinda invalidates this mod. )
Personally I play with red only science being half price. Red+Green being normal, and then after that it scales up really quickly (5, 10 then 25 times). And again unadjusted for infinite (since it scales very quickly already).
Essentially, you can get to trains and other decent tech normally, but pay through your teeth for the good stuff.


With regards to expensive recipes:
I am planning on doing this, but first want to make sure the normal recipes work fine.

I am open to suggestions as to what the expensive versions should be.
I haven't really started planning for them yet.

Definitely want to include Uranium-238 as a resource in high-tech science packs for expensive. (1 to 20 ratio or something)

[hoho]

I've considered this, not sure how I want to do this yet.

• Specifically, I considered making the satellite return a remote control.
• You click the remote control on a spot.
• Satellite comes barrelling down with an asteroid in tow.
• Multiple atomic bombs levels of destruction, apocalypse and fun.
• Meteor ore deposit is created at the target location. Which can be mined and either processed into base ores, or made into space science packs.
• Maaayyybeee also space biters. But veeeerryyy maybe.

That sounds fun as well but unless you plaster warnings all over the place, people might not think so when they use the remote in the middle of their base

I've not played 5dim before, so I'm not familiar with it. If you can tell me what the recipes for 5dim should be like, I can rather easily create a config option for it.

I'll see what I can do. I've not really played with 5dim for over a year and just started a game with it today. I'll probably do a run with it before trying to figure out what should go where. No clue how long would that take.

With regards to expensive recipes:
I am planning on doing this, but first want to make sure the normal recipes work fine.

Yes, that's quite obvious way to go.

Definitely want to include Uranium-238 as a resource in high-tech science packs for expensive. (1 to 20 ratio or something)

I hope you meant U235. 238 is the stuff you get mountains of. Though, after one has enrichment, getting mountains of 235 is just a matter of time and energy. I accidentally managed to convert several steel chests full of 238 into 235 by leaving my enrichment process running in a matter of a few hours.

[nagapito]

Thanks for pointing out the issue with productivity modules. Didn't think about the waste possibly being infinite resource potential. I'll fix this.

I wasnt even thinking about productivity modules!!! That just makes it even worse then I thought!:P
I like a lot the Angels sludge to mineral system, it has a lower then 1 result ammount, so instead of being something like dump 100 items and wait 30 seconds for a result, you dum the same item 100 times and wait for the 100 'tries' to get one in return. After a little, you lost track of how many runs you made already and it starts to look like it has a random chance of giving a result. The trick is to make it not deterministic, so never allow that summing multiple fractions gives the number 1. That is, a 0.2 result will always return an items at the 5th time. A 0.3 returns an item on the 4th time but the machine keeps the 0.2 excess from the 1.2, So, next result is at the 7th try, not the 8th, with 0.1 left over on the machine. This gives a randomness feel which looks cool for something like salvaging scrap. And productivity modules, if allowed, will only return an extra 0.3 of the item.

I've considered this, not sure how I want to do this yet.

• Specifically, I considered making the satellite return a remote control.
• You click the remote control on a spot.
• Satellite comes barrelling down with an asteroid in tow.
• Multiple atomic bombs levels of destruction, apocalypse and fun.
• Meteor ore deposit is created at the target location. Which can be mined and either processed into base ores, or made into space science packs.
• Maaayyybeee also space biters. But veeeerryyy maybe.

You might be over-thinking it a little....
Its a cool feature for a new mod, lauch rocket, get asteroid, mine, blabla...

For a science revamp mod, something more simple like, sending samples to space (the "fish") and receiving the result of being in space (the "frozen fish"), analysing that result in combination with other materials or space experience results gives space science packs makes much more sense and is a lot less work! And, you cant actually control how many rockets player is forced to send according to any level of difficulty by requiring different space results in normal/expensive mode.
I'd have to get help with the animation and graphics though. Code wise I can follow the Orbital Ion Cannons mod in how this is done.

The biggest gripe I have with the flat multiplier is that it really slows down the start game.

I kinda agree but its also not that much. if your expensive mode is just a multiplier with different values on different technologies, then honestly the effect is not that noticeable and is kinda redundant unless for ultra hardcore player that have the option of setting the mod to expensive and the vanilla option to x4
But, if expensive means tweaking some recipes, like space science requiring a few extra items instead of just requiring double of the same, then yes, give me expensive mode

Definitely want to include Uranium-238 as a resource in high-tech science packs for expensive. (1 to 20 ratio or something)

Ignore expensive for a while.If you never thought about expensive, then... nuclear needed to be in the normal recipe set! So, add it to the normal recipe.
Then, once you have the normal recipes, you think about the expensive and how to make us suffer even more with nuclear materials

And, take in account that its not like nuclear is that hard at all. It has a natural high cost entrance and take some initial setup time, since its for endgame but once you have a proper setup running, there is no lack of nuclear material.

[UberWaffe]

Just a quick post.

New version v0.15.2 is uploaded to the mod portal. Only some minor fixes.

• Fixed placeholder graphics for thermal storage and heated thermal storage.
• Fixed some recipe byproduct issues.
• Moved the cost difficulty setting to an ingame mod setting. (Tested and seems to work fine for new and already started games, but let me know if shinanigans.)
• Fixed recipe ordering for new games (still need to figure out to do it for already running ones).
• Fixed some missing locales (for now I've just used the English locales in the German one where missing.)
• Fixed issue with migration script.

[nagapito]

I thought recipe order was not affected by save games.
At least, I never had any issues opening a save game and the order not updating.

Is this for all the recipes that I reported out of place or one some in specific?

[orzelek]

Tbh with new research costs I'm a bit affraid to use an additional multipliers on top
I usually used only multiplier from here - it would be still better then vanilla since it won't make red techs that bad. But multiplying costs of stuff with high tech packs... thats scary

[UberWaffe]

Quick note (might just be me that didn't know this):

If you are having trouble joining another player with this mod, and you are getting a message that the mods differ even though the version is the same, then see this bug: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=46364

Basically, the game is complaining that you have mod settings that differ for settings that require a game restart.
Obvious in hindsight, I know.

[Trainwreck]

Haven't tried a full playthrough yet, but from browsing the tech tree I don't see any way to get a thermal store. Possibly a missing recipe unlock on advanced-electronics-2?

[UberWaffe]

Haven't tried a full playthrough yet, but from browsing the tech tree I don't see any way to get a thermal store. Possibly a missing recipe unlock on advanced-electronics-2?

Thanks for reporting this. It is indeed missing. Will fix tonight and put out an updated version.

EDIT:

Turns out the bug I reported was in fact just me doing bad things with requires.
I'll have to rewrite the mod slightly for the before v0.15.4 of the mod.

But for now, I plan to upload v0.15.3 for the missing high-tech recipes tonight.

Definitely want to include Uranium-238 as a resource in high-tech science packs for expensive. (1 to 20 ratio or something)

I hope you meant U235. 238 is the stuff you get mountains of. Though, after one has enrichment, getting mountains of 235 is just a matter of time and energy. I accidentally managed to convert several steel chests full of 238 into 235 by leaving my enrichment process running in a matter of a few hours.

Yes, I meant Uranium-235.
But ironically upon further inspection it turns out that the Kovarex Enrichment Process requires high-tech science packs to research, so that is probably a no-go (given the chicken/egg situation).

EDIT 2:

v0.15.3 uploaded.

• Fixed missing High-Tech intermediates recipe unlocks (Thanks @Trainwreck).
• Fixed biopaste and biosilicate ordering (Thanks @nagapito. @nagapito was right, it is not save game. I was derping about with item ordering, not recipe ordering.)

[nagapito]

Yes, I meant Uranium-235.
But ironically upon further inspection it turns out that the Kovarex Enrichment Process requires high-tech science packs to research, so that is probably a no-go (given the chicken/egg situation).

You can always change the nuclear technology requirements....

[UberWaffe]

New version v0.15.4 is uploaded to the mod portal. Only some minor fixes.

• Moved setting to new ingame mod settings
• Moved labs to science tab and ordered them.
• Tweaks to some of the configs.
• Minimum cost is 1 science pack, to prevent game crash. (For lolwhat option)

I played around a bit with splitting out the settings, but in the end it didn't add much. Base game already adds finer control through its multiplier.

Next step is bobsmods compatibility (i.e.incorporate bobsmods intermediates and ores).

[canadajebus]

New version v0.15.4 is uploaded to the mod portal. Only some minor fixes.

• Moved setting to new ingame mod settings
• Moved labs to science tab and ordered them.
• Tweaks to some of the configs.
• Minimum cost is 1 science pack, to prevent game crash. (For lolwhat option)

I played around a bit with splitting out the settings, but in the end it didn't add much. Base game already adds finer control through its multiplier.

Next step is bobsmods compatibility (i.e.incorporate bobsmods intermediates and ores).

ETA for bobsmods compatibility? I'm about to start my blue science in my 0.15 playthough and hoping to have this ready again.

[UberWaffe]

@canadajebus:
Unfortunately "not soon".
Still busy with my playthrough and figuring out what changes would fit.

If anyone has suggestions on how the recipes should change for bobsmods, then that would help a lot in speeding this up.

[canadajebus]

I still haven't started my blue science yet cause my marathomation game is so long lol. I was looking at temporarily fixing it so it used the old bobsmods tweaks for up to blue, but I kept having problems with the fluids. I'm distracted by Rimworld for a short bit now anyways.

I would recommend keeping the red, green, and blue science ingredients the same as the previous version. I find the big challenge with them is the gold plates in the blue science. Have to do sorting for gold since the combined ore processing for gold can't be done until a couple researches into blue science.

As far as the other science types, I'm not too sure on how to redo the ingredients for bobs because I haven't actually got that far yet. Military science seems like it should be somewhere in difficulty between green and blue. Maybe using some of the early alloys like brass and invar would work. Beyond that, I'm not sure yet.

[romtos]

I just started using this mod after Bob's Extended didn't get updated, since I mostly liked what it did with science. SCT does it even better, though! Now I'm also waiting for the Bob's compatibility (that's the reason I looked up this thread), but I can understand it'll take a while. Science changed a lot in 0.15.

I do have a question, do you plan to reintroduce the logistics science pack of bob's mod when you make it compatible?

Oh, and a tiny bug report/mod compatibility issue: AAI industries changes the SP1 recipe as well, to something very close to vanilla, but slightly higher copper costs. I now tweaked that mod to match the SCT recipe, but I wanted to give a heads-up just in case.

Thanks for your efforts with this mod!