Train Roundabouts

[Deadly-Bagel]

Wait until tomorrow for the updated chain signal logic that prevents trains from changing direction in the middle of a junction =)

[Engimage]

Actually there are no chain signal logic impending changes.
The only change that effects this is the change of repathing calls for trains. Currently a repath will be issued by all trains whenever any change to train tracks occurs. This is why intense rail building/deconstructing might catch a train inside the crossing and force it to repath. In 0.15 a repath will be called only if you deconstruct a track which is a part of a train's current path.
This change will not actually fix any train behaviour problems but it will dramatically lower the probability at which they do happen.

So the tests that aargha makes show artificially simulated "worst case scenarios" which will deadlock the intersections regardless of all upcoming changes

So one of the recipes that will tell if your crossing can deadlock is that two different train paths do actually intersect more than once within it. The explanation is quite simple - both trains can enter the first of this crossings (as they are most likely a separate blocks) but they won't be able to advance to the second one as they are already occupied. The thing is that no number of chain signals will be able to help if trains move slowly as the yellow state in this case won't happen in advance. However to actually happen you will need these two trains get inside the intersection simulnateously.

Actually all of these deadlocks come from your will to increase throughtput of the intersection. The most simple solution that is leaving the whole intersection a single block by providing only entrance/exit signals, will totally eliminate the probability of a deadlock of any non-roundabout crossing. Roundabouts in this case will let your train crash into itself. However this will drastically limit throughput of such intersection and effectively turn it into a bottleneck on a network with high traffic.

[xng]

Answer to OP from 13th of April (and other people thinking about this):

If you are using the smallest possible roundabout you never need to allow more than one train inside the roundabout at any one time, which means you can just get rid of the signals inside your roundabout and repathfinding won't bother you again. Just make sure you always have enough space for a whole trainset in between any 2 crossings, trains overlapping 2 roundabouts at the same time usually causes problems.

[aaargha]

You are pretty much on the money here, PacifyerGrey. There are two parts I'd like to address though.

So one of the recipes that will tell if your crossing can deadlock is that two different train paths do actually intersect more than once within it. The explanation is quite simple - both trains can enter the first of this crossings (as they are most likely a separate blocks) but they won't be able to advance to the second one as they are already occupied.

This is true in that all the intersections that can cause a deadlock have this configuration (and I'm sure there is some way to generalize the wording to fit more/fewer than two trains, with minor modifications). That is not to say that any intersection configured like that can be the cause of a deadlock, just wanted to clarify that.

Perfectly safe

clockwise-twister.png (969.58 KiB) Viewed 9082 times

The thing is that no number of chain signals will be able to help if trains move slowly as the yellow state in this case won't happen in advance. However to actually happen you will need these two trains get inside the intersection simulnateously.

While it's true that more chain signals wont help fix the issue it's not for the reason you describe. When a chain signal comes within an approaching trains braking distance the train will try to allocate all signals along its path up to, and including, the next rail signal. Train speed only affects how far ahead of the train this happens. In fact most setups will have a minimum speed requirement for the deadlock to occur (depending on the length of the exit block).

Train approaching from the west, red dot is braking distance.

allocation.png (769.65 KiB) Viewed 9082 times

[Deadly-Bagel]

Ah, that's a pity. I remember reading that topic not long after joining.

Guess for now you either make do with no signals in your intersections or you design your network to cut down on train repathing.

[Engimage]

Ah, that's a pity. I remember reading that topic not long after joining.

Guess for now you either make do with no signals in your intersections or you design your network to cut down on train repathing.

Right now you can go with deadlock-safe designs with no problems. X-crossing on the previous aaargha's post or commonly used T-crossings are absolutely deadlock-safe if you have enough space between crossings to fit at least couple of trains.

All we do write here is to make people understand that "best practices" we are trying to form here are not something we came up accidentally. There are recipes of 100% success here but you need to understand what to account.

[Caennanu]

Hola, if below is left driver side shouldn't the enter sign be a chain signal? that way when any of the blocks across its path are occupied, it will halt even before entering the entire block.
so instead of using chain signal's on the exits, try put them on the entrances?

This is what I get for taking too long to finish my posts, half of the discussion passes by while typing.

As for what tools Bagel used I can't say

That would be regular blueprint string, an 18 month child, a wife with a chronic pain disability, and a full time job =P
Take2.JPG

Ah, I see you are playing on the hardcore difficulty
Take two, while being much more resilient than take one , still falls prey to the pathfinder. I'd say it's about equivalent to Keldereks solution.

DB2-lock.png

Sorry for the "dickness" the post was made too late at night for me and I just did not have time for the right arguments.

Yes I was refering Deadly-Badgel's designs (several last from him). I can understand having chain signals on exits to extend safely zone but you just can't use normals on entrances.

One you have on this screenshot is perfect signaling-wise but is deadlockable by design. However this design is much less deadlockable compared to roundabout in 0.15 as the train can't deadlock itself and repathing will be much less frequent in 0.15.

No worries, we've all been there some time or other.

Yeah, I read about the changes when building stuff, hopefully that will improve things in the wild, but so far I've not seen anything that breaks my tests.

[Deadly-Bagel]

That's not the problem, it's that the train passes any number of chain signals, suddenly decides to go a different direction and stops halfway across the junction. It causes all sorts of grief.

Though this train network seems incredibly unstable. You would need to have two trains going opposite directions on the straight BOTH change paths to turn the corner while already on the junction, at the same time. The probability of that should be next to nil but you're saying this happens consistently? Suspicious.

[mazedragon]

I agree, T-Intersections are deadlock safe, as are roundabouts with no signals.. however, they only allow a single train to be inside them at a time, which becomes a big bottleneck.

I've found that a well signaled roundabout can be used by multiple trains at once to increase performance, as long as each train is using a different part of the intersection.. I had that working well with chain signals, however, once my track layout got complex enough to start having multiple routes around the map, there was a possibility that a train would change it's mind about a route partway around the roundabout and block itself. It still works OK in parts of the map with only one route, but the areas with multiple routes are where the most traffic is and where I'd need the good roundabouts the most.

It sounds like the updates in 0.15 will reduce this.. It also might be possible to update the signal code so a train will ignore a signal if it sees that the train occupying or reserving the block on the other side of the signal is itself, but that might get messy...

I haven't upgraded yet, I'll have to test again when I start the next game and move to 0.15

[Shokubai]

While I would avoid roundabouts in general you may fix or drastically lessen your problem by adding chain signals at the NE, SE, SW, NW positions of the junction...Still I would go away from them as a whole.

[porcupine]

While I would avoid roundabouts in general you may fix or drastically lessen your problem by adding chain signals at the NE, SE, SW, NW positions of the junction...Still I would go away from them as a whole.

Playing a game now, where I've had all the iron/copper mines named the same, and written a little logic bit to enable/disable stations, and dispatch trains from a wait when there is an available station (pathing to the closest non-disabled station). Sometimes 2 trains get released in a row, as you'd expect (IE: 2 mines open up at the same time), and both take the same path for the same mine. When this happens, the first train in, gets to stay in (station then disables, and the second train has to find the next mine). This leads to the trains trying to do a 270 degree turn in my round-abouts, and even though they're just 1 engine, 2 cars, properly signaled (chain signals n/s/e/w, with chains on the entrances, and double-regular signals on the exits), the trains *FREQUENTLY* deadlock themselves (IE: deadlocked against its own 2nd car, just *barely* blocking the exit on a 270 degree path).

This happens every ~10 minutes at this point (and I have a TON of the smaller, rails spaced with 2 rail sized blocks between 'em round-abouts).

Total PITA, and no obvious resolution (short of ripping out every intersection.... for ones that are larger, and might not have space around 'em.

Balls =\

[Burny]

@porcupine
Can you post me a screenshot or give me the blueprint string of your roundabout (or both)? I might be able to help so that they will no longer deadlock themselves every X minutes.

[porcupine]

@porcupine
Can you post me a screenshot or give me the blueprint string of your roundabout (or both)? I might be able to help so that they will no longer deadlock themselves every X minutes.

Thanks for the offer. I already nuked the BP on the roundabout though. It was the smallest possible round-about basically, using rails that were spaced with 2x full bank rail spaces between (IE: I think 4 actual spaces between?).

I'm using this abomination now, and it's still very wrong (and I know it, I tried re-working it 2-3x in the same size, and just got frustrated that I couldn't manage to cram all the signals in reliably):

Code: Select all

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This doesn't break, but doesn't trigger properly either (because it's missing signals obviously, which won't fit), so trains going east>west, and west>east for example have to wait on each other.

Most of the BP's I kept running into, when doing google-fu, were either unwieldy, huge, or not a "+" intersection, for an offset, etc. (which I didn't feel like dealing with, at least not this play-thru).

[Burny]

@porcupine
Can you post me a screenshot or give me the blueprint string of your roundabout (or both)? I might be able to help so that they will no longer deadlock themselves every X minutes.

Thanks for the offer. I already nuked the BP on the roundabout though. It was the smallest possible round-about basically, using rails that were spaced with 2x full bank rail spaces between (IE: I think 4 actual spaces between?).

I'm using this abomination now, and it's still very wrong (and I know it, I tried re-working it 2-3x in the same size, and just got frustrated that I couldn't manage to cram all the signals in reliably):

Code: Select all

0eNqlnOtOIzkQhd+lfyfI5bt5ldVoFaDFtJSbQhgtQnn3TSAJIVOmz3F+jebCN8dll8tVLvd79zB/7debYbnt7t+74XG1fOnu/3nvXobn5Wx++LPt27rv7rth2y+6SbecLQ6/28yGebebdMPyqf+vu5fdr0nXL7fDdug/f/7jN2//Ll8XD/1m/w/OP/n4uvnTP00/AJNuvXrZ/8xqefiP9pxpmHRv+18k7dlPw6Z//PzLsJv8hbTfxEwff8+G5fQoWwHfHdHW3IWdgnNn3Mt2D3z+va1p9CeQhvHgQJ0+UK8gA4YU3HQRIxIaE2o9+5Px8vcprU2m+zaXo9oKO7OSNXFiyDFWMELLiSrHsnJ0jGPc6OxFEq4t7zS4h8eaj1z7nZo0aqCpHtAa6XnxqkFhV5haYswZpRp9yNo2IIWWChjSGlbq1fhFgwq72tXJsbDTRNyM1rFQZMC468jJjmZ8HdnAYy0w57EtGIvVg7FNtDMig8801arqSgNn1IbOUDaUsw3leivWFqkTim7qdM2yjg5GFpDseKiG8SzGjLunC4w53bf1PnpgcXAoyoQ1EwtFzIB7lBytm4HVVGjqtVjNwTwcmKYR1uqFhUJSbcP+p3Ecv/Y1DOxCld1YW5A+kNA8vh497Dm1oKkqTSwVkZrBTPFwoDwwrzYOqzELF0LOcThdb0ua4oD7j+hTpi31IOxpPo57ZbAsFFFKlwjUBDD4i0l6mm1+iu1JPx6FQLq1LiSS59Y87iohkcwIrDs4yFRijCq0gFWVoHqftuiiwcoXH2WLI/UO8Ooo9JndA2q5+tnh5MJodrTmOO6B0VOa40lyRE7IMbTlMFH30RjbtGLmpfMjtfgTc1vKgWn88rBF/zS8Lqb9fP/vN8PjdL2a9z8lHUE3aWIrcOqgE5UJ+eoa0pwq2aa0ICJZQXJNuqG5Sp5MDuK4P6VAMv14KEiUUwm3YFOi4JmD45mS1TdxlVrIQ6Qb32QzcczLsNJMBLGIUy2dKQLF1uzogy6i1dNaEWq4laqugXjrkUPVmthTOQLNbAKOQOkKHwAthodqGGGr9og2SxbtESZbfNCH62nKuDK29IAw2WwKYdKFB+C6ouTb4rIqtNwo1KoXroalAhcrYoRNJyGtlssnrwJxVJmwAxFhSAzsUEQgFgO7FHFoEBO5840gzERHd+D2RkxmsQZZrGRF7+tWCEl5ReiQZPWehi+fehieRxO9U6uKzroIRYvZfD6dzxbrn7LFyh2iCBt/KmPz5H4B3ESKUMWGUp1VHR7ZHc4iayVRO5wgQunrI4MIbfUZA/W0WMOKRqKSlbbqU6WbTSx7g2R0jMOc8WTDqhzyFFdR03brCnWJiWXvjpC2HZua/Nwg9zGC9zMcFRtkeRe2UGGBoHvR3AAFcqBOIU7YQgWk1LKFCohKlxQgqr9xK9KpdI8QEj5cvJGqa00sFagyCtHWQCysQhYqEKhnD3D6GccLjQG0WbJQAUEdV6iAmGRwgpiBZaqUyBUqIGXkFS3EJGsKwP2k+MIxEZ14C4PKVMMQ3sBA7GuBKycg1QS8fYGIFcGTJQoIGsgKBQSNZIECglLHu6+Lf3d9vtNnjC4pAN0UEkrbxT+mORoydCJ96pHtEULsENseEPlKhhNd030/aNW2xgcPJbQxkMFff/dANjwIZ4ALR1s9rNarzbZaV9LfuVz0OpDtCK4244UL8ZXnIqblWh+zWhIu1AOdddLW4uChFLytxcFDyTLe4hC1fUn1HLzF4RhSIQO39TiAKyJhPWrn7gYQSxfygAYSSXQfONB3K5ltA0ekZrYNHFLK1vD0nQ9vZ/CaNP05GpkyVZSR97BAi6BktowHDZe9iIWUUt13ctpKA3SzQ3Qw6HbQHwwaloq8IpHClh8graz3YFIdLVXFkP6DPG+TQtYcKtIiSxlf6oV8fIQNlyw6QEILmWkg70esYZMi6IWoabsyksodjTUNDqNyHFn3w2zoucIf8qra4l0LJ6nQxLRlQgXJ1izevqBvwDo0N70OLcjJ25pC73XqC3DDHeChBSDSks0IdKNohXxtDk3VRVcD8ikV0X1duO+UCDLPwtYRKq+rJTIfPKkNMDHfOMHGl8l1XBkeV39LpzXnkN4Pa9kLodqHEsgPLtQwdEyJOofs5alhPPhE6xwscyVYWnqxZ51DnrZqmNS0j+W/97Ffk89PPd1ffBlq0v3pNy+f6b/3NrgoXmS3+x8+Kz0z

This doesn't break, but doesn't trigger properly either (because it's missing signals obviously, which won't fit), so trains going east>west, and west>east for example have to wait on each other.

Most of the BP's I kept running into, when doing google-fu, were either unwieldy, huge, or not a "+" intersection, for an offset, etc. (which I didn't feel like dealing with, at least not this play-thru).

I try to avoid 4-way intersections if possible. In my current savegame, I have no 4-way intersection because either the intersection takes up too much space (because of the space you need for proper signaling) or trains will have to wait too long for another train in the same intersection.
Instead, I try to use T-intersections where usually 2+ trains can go into the same intersection without blocking each other (at least for straight forward and right-turns) combined with lane switchers between two intersections. This way, I have dedicated left-turn-lanes and right-turn-lanes: http://i.imgur.com/U3mQu4g.jpg

I tried to recreate the roundabout you spoke of. Most people don't put signals inside the roundabout, but in this case putting chain signals should help. For example for 2 trains coming from the same direction, 1st wants to turn left and the other turns right. The 2nd train will already enter the roundabout as soon as the 1st train passed the chain signal at the top.
I recorded the example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2l9CewZlZM
Without chain signals, the 2nd train would wait for the 1st train to leave the roundabout before entering it.
In both cases (with or without chain signals), trains should never deadlock themselves. They will only deadlock themselves when there are normal signals inside the roundabout though.

Roundabout with chain signals inside:

Code: Select all

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

However for good 4-way intersection designs, you can check this thread: viewtopic.php?f=194&t=46855

If you want to continue using your own 4-way intersection, if I was in your position I'd change 8 chain signals to normal signals, so your 4-way intersection looks like this:

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

[porcupine]

I tried to recreate the roundabout you spoke of. Most people don't put signals inside the roundabout, but in this case putting chain signals should help. For example for 2 trains coming from the same direction, 1st wants to turn left and the other turns right. The 2nd train will already enter the roundabout as soon as the 1st train passed the chain signal at the top.
I recorded the example here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2l9CewZlZM
Without chain signals, the 2nd train would wait for the 1st train to leave the roundabout before entering it.
In both cases (with or without chain signals), trains should never deadlock themselves. They will only deadlock themselves when there are normal signals inside the roundabout though.

Yeah, that's the exact style I was using, the one that deadlocks . It'll deadlock if the train tries to switch stations (in the opposite direction say) while in the round-about, trying to do a 270 degree (or more) turn. Even with chain signals, it'll deadlock on its own last car (even if there's room for the entire train in the roundabout, as soon as its path can see itself, it freaks out).

However for good 4-way intersection designs, you can check this thread: viewtopic.php?f=194&t=46855

Ah thanks for the link, I'll take a poke when I have a few . I know next factory needs different signaling (even my "turn-around" over the existing tracks didn't pan out that well within a screen or two of other intersections, have to have a "lump" off to the side of the tracks entirely it seems [as opposed to a "C" with the tracks running through it, unless of course, I change its signaling as well of course! .

[Burny]

Yeah, that's the exact style I was using, the one that deadlocks . It'll deadlock if the train tries to switch stations (in the opposite direction say) while in the round-about, trying to do a 270 degree (or more) turn. Even with chain signals, it'll deadlock on its own last car (even if there's room for the entire train in the roundabout, as soon as its path can see itself, it freaks out).

Wow, haven't thought about that! Only now I understood the problem.
Hmm I guess this is a very solid reason to avoid roundabouts all together.

[porcupine]

Yeah, that's the exact style I was using, the one that deadlocks . It'll deadlock if the train tries to switch stations (in the opposite direction say) while in the round-about, trying to do a 270 degree (or more) turn. Even with chain signals, it'll deadlock on its own last car (even if there's room for the entire train in the roundabout, as soon as its path can see itself, it freaks out).

Wow, haven't thought about that! Only now I understood the problem.
Hmm I guess this is a very solid reason to avoid roundabouts all together.

Ah yeah, if you check this thread where I've been posting, I made a little combinator/setup to allow you to name all your mines/etc. identically, and dispatch trains as necessary to visit 'em when they're loaded up, to grab ore and drop off at the refinery or what have you:

viewtopic.php?t=18666

Because it makes the stations shut down when a train arrives (or when there's not enough ore), there are lots of trains re-pathing while in transit, etc.

[sarcolopter]

https://i.cubeupload.com/8Iz6cY.png

I've been having good results with this design, recently added the diagonal bypasses, no deadlocks since then. 1-4 trains.

[Jap2.0]

https://i.cubeupload.com/8Iz6cY.png

I've been having good results with this design, recently added the diagonal bypasses, no deadlocks since then. 1-4 trains.

It looks like it shouldn't deadlock, although it doesn't have amazing throughput it should be fine for most small areas.

[Haniel87]

I've made this roundabout for my trains. So far it's been problem free, although it's not suited for trains longer than 4 cargo wagons.

(If you see any problems with it, do let me know, as I cant see any errors with it on my own.) Dont know how to post the proper blueprint string either, other than :

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