Boiler \ coal ratio with 0.15

[Sapik]

Hi !!

I try to find the ratio between the number of coal drill and the new boiler because i just start a new map this morning and i need to find a lot of coal

i try to get the no solar achievement and i don't have nuclear yet.


thanks guys !!

[Frightning]

Are you looking for Electric mining drill to Boiler ratio? That's not hard to calculate:
Electric mining drill produces 0.525 Coal/sec (before modules at least), the Boiler is iirc, still 50% efficient, so it will consume 2x fuel needed to produce the amount of power that it does (the ratio with Steam engines is 1 Boiler to 2 Steam engines iirc, and Steam engines produce a maximum of 910kW iirc, so that means a Boiler would consume fuel at a maximum rate equal to 4 times the energy produced by a Steam engine, or 3640kW=3.64MW=3.64MJ/s). Coal has a fuel value of 8MJ=8MW for 1 second, which means it consumes a maximum of 3.64/8=0.455 Coal/sec, so we now want the Coal produced by Electric mining drills to equal Coal consumed by Boilers. Let x be number of Electric mining drills, and y be number of Boilers. Then we want 0.525x=0.455y => 0.525/0.455=y/x (divide both sides by 0.455 and by x).

y/x=525/455 (multiply top and bottom by 1000 on right side; this is a form of 1 and hence didn't change the value of the right side)
which reduces to
y/x=105/91 (factor of 5 common to top and bottom)
y/x=15/13 (factor of 7 common to top and bottom)

So we want 13 Electric mining drills to 15 Boilers (unless I got the power numbers or efficiency wrong anyways).

[mergele]

And for the whole setup: 3 Pumps, 60 Boiler, 120 Steam engines, 52 coal miners

[Aeternus]

Wait, 2 engines per boiler? Boiler consumes 1.8MW, but is 50% efficient, so should produce 900KW in steam. Which is exactly one steam engine. If water consumption is also 50% efficient, a boiler eats 60/sec in water (steam engines eat 30/sec). Pump produces 1200, so you could do 50 boilers per pump if my math's correct. And 1:1 on steam engines per boiler, so 50 steamers too. That'd allow for a double row 25 units deep to be powered from one pump ('tho I'd do 24 to account for some pressure loss due to distance)

As for how much coal that needs... I rarely bother with that, I fuel mine with solid fuel and garbage wood But Frightning's math looks sound, if you run the power plant to maximum capacity. Add a little extra if you intend to use Burner Inserters to do your coalfeeding - with these newer boilers it might actually be smarter to not use those since they'll be active a lot more - standard inserters might be more efficient power wise.

[Frightning]

Wait, 2 engines per boiler? Boiler consumes 1.8MW, but is 50% efficient, so should produce 900KW in steam. Which is exactly one steam engine. If water consumption is also 50% efficient, a boiler eats 60/sec in water (steam engines eat 30/sec). Pump produces 1200, so you could do 50 boilers per pump if my math's correct. And 1:1 on steam engines per boiler, so 50 steamers too. That'd allow for a double row 25 units deep to be powered from one pump ('tho I'd do 24 to account for some pressure loss due to distance)

As for how much coal that needs... I rarely bother with that, I fuel mine with solid fuel and garbage wood But Frightning's math looks sound, if you run the power plant to maximum capacity. Add a little extra if you intend to use Burner Inserters to do your coalfeeding - with these newer boilers it might actually be smarter to not use those since they'll be active a lot more - standard inserters might be more efficient power wise.

It burns at 3.64 MJ/s, not 1.82MJ/s, that's how much energy is harvestable from the steam generated by the boiler. It must consume twice that much energy from fuel to generate it though.

[Permittivity]

Basically this, but the power of a steam engine if 900, not 910 so the boiler is 3.6 MW and not 3.64. The erroneous 10kW came from confusion with the old steam engine value that was 510 IIRC.

I've already reported the bug that the 1.8MW tooltip on the boilers is wrong and does not account for the 50% efficiency. See viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44741

[Frightning]

Basically this, but the power of a steam engine if 900, not 910 so the boiler is 3.6 MW and not 3.64. The erroneous 10kW came from confusion with the old steam engine value that was 510 IIRC.

I've already reported the bug that the 1.8MW tooltip on the boilers is wrong and does not account for the 50% efficiency. See viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44741

Boilers have always reported power produced rather than fuel consumed. I think mentioning the 50% energy efficiency in the item's description would suffice.

[Aeternus]

Wait, 2 engines per boiler? Boiler consumes 1.8MW, but is 50% efficient, so should produce 900KW in steam. Which is exactly one steam engine. If water consumption is also 50% efficient, a boiler eats 60/sec in water (steam engines eat 30/sec). Pump produces 1200, so you could do 50 boilers per pump if my math's correct. And 1:1 on steam engines per boiler, so 50 steamers too. That'd allow for a double row 25 units deep to be powered from one pump ('tho I'd do 24 to account for some pressure loss due to distance)

As for how much coal that needs... I rarely bother with that, I fuel mine with solid fuel and garbage wood But Frightning's math looks sound, if you run the power plant to maximum capacity. Add a little extra if you intend to use Burner Inserters to do your coalfeeding - with these newer boilers it might actually be smarter to not use those since they'll be active a lot more - standard inserters might be more efficient power wise.

It burns at 3.64 MJ/s, not 1.82MJ/s, that's how much energy is harvestable from the steam generated by the boiler. It must consume twice that much energy from fuel to generate it though.

Are you sure? The label on the boiler states "Energy Consumption: 1.8MW". Not energy production. If the boiler consumes 3.6MW to produce 1.8 MW in steam, then the label is wrong.

I'll give the boiler a try with one and two turbines under an artificial full load and see what happens. Could be a bug in the label - in which case I need to revamp my power plant by doubling up on steamers! Might actually need a faster belt to keep that stuff fueled under load...
[Edit] Looks like you're right. One boiler supports 2 steam engines, just tried it using an artificial load of 6 radar stations (1.8 MW power use exactly). So it's 1 pump - 25 boilers - 50 steam engines, and 13 coalmines to 15 steam engines to keep it all fed. I guess the mislabeling bug report has been filed already.

[iceman_1212]

So it's 1 pump - 25 boilers - 50 steam engines, and 13 coalmines to 15 steam engines to keep it all fed. I guess the mislabeling bug report has been filed already.

An offshore pump produces 1200 l / s and a steam engine consumes a max of 30 l / s.

[Aeternus]

Gah, you're right. I suck at math.
1 pump, 20 boilers, 40 steam engines. Storage tanks can still be used to store steam for short term fuel issues (or an extra steam engine for short term extra production). And you need just under 35 Mining Drills on coal production to fuel that array. (34 and 2/3rds to be precise)

[Permittivity]

Gah, you're right. I suck at math.
1 pump, 20 boilers, 40 steam engines. Storage tanks can still be used to store steam for short term fuel issues (or an extra steam engine for short term extra production). And you need just under 35 Mining Drills on coal production to fuel that array. (34 and 2/3rds to be precise)

That seems wrong to me. 20 boilers @ 3.6 MWt each is 72MWt. To calculate it another way, 40 steam engines @ 900 KWe each is 36 MWe. The 50% thermal efficiency means that needs as input 72 MWt.

According to https://wiki.factorio.com/Mining an electric drill on coal mines 0.525 per second and each coal is 8MJ, so that gives a single miner a coal output of 4.2 MWt. That means that 18 drills outputting 75.6 MWt is enough to drive that setup. Your 35 drills would produce 147 MWt, capable of driving 40 boilers and 80 steam engines.

I've always ended up replacing coal for power faster than I replace coal for furnaces. Somehow electric furnaces are way higher tech than solar panels.

[Xeorm]

Gah, you're right. I suck at math.
1 pump, 20 boilers, 40 steam engines. Storage tanks can still be used to store steam for short term fuel issues (or an extra steam engine for short term extra production). And you need just under 35 Mining Drills on coal production to fuel that array. (34 and 2/3rds to be precise)

That seems wrong to me. 20 boilers @ 3.6 MWt each is 72MWt. To calculate it another way, 40 steam engines @ 900 KWe each is 36 MWe. The 50% thermal efficiency means that needs as input 72 MWt.

According to https://wiki.factorio.com/Mining an electric drill on coal mines 0.525 per second and each coal is 8MJ, so that gives a single miner a coal output of 4.2 MWt. That means that 18 drills outputting 75.6 MWt is enough to drive that setup. Your 35 drills would produce 147 MWt, capable of driving 40 boilers and 80 steam engines.

I've always ended up replacing coal for power faster than I replace coal for furnaces. Somehow electric furnaces are way higher tech than solar panels.

That 50% efficiency number always throws people off. Each boiler consumes 1.8MW of energy, and produces 900kW of energy. That's where the 50% comes in. The steam engines themselves are 100% efficient, and produce 900kW each. So, 1:1 ratio.

20 boilers require 36 MW of coal, or 8.6 miners.

[Permittivity]

That 50% efficiency number always throws people off. Each boiler consumes 1.8MW of energy, and produces 900kW of energy. That's where the 50% comes in. The steam engines themselves are 100% efficient, and produce 900kW each. So, 1:1 ratio.

20 boilers require 36 MW of coal, or 8.6 miners.

Here is a screenshot showing one boiler drive two steam engines powering 6 radars for a total of 1.8 MWe. Notice that the tooltip for the power pole shows that 100% of electricity demand is being met.

OneBoilerTwoSteamEngines.png (645.88 KiB) Viewed 24411 times

For good measure, I timed that boiler consuming 50 coal at 112 seconds. 50 coal time 8 MJ each is 400 MJ. Dividing by 112 seconds yields the expected 3.6 MWt input from coal.

[Xeorm]

That 50% efficiency number always throws people off. Each boiler consumes 1.8MW of energy, and produces 900kW of energy. That's where the 50% comes in. The steam engines themselves are 100% efficient, and produce 900kW each. So, 1:1 ratio.

20 boilers require 36 MW of coal, or 8.6 miners.

Here is a screenshot showing one boiler drive two steam engines powering 6 radars for a total of 1.8 MWe. Notice that the tooltip for the power pole shows that 100% of electricity demand is being met.

OneBoilerTwoSteamEngines.png

For good measure, I timed that boiler consuming 50 coal at 112 seconds. 50 coal time 8 MJ each is 400 MJ. Dividing by 112 seconds yields the expected 3.6 MWt input from coal.

Hmm. Seems you're right then. Still, odd with the way they followed conventions. Opposite of how they did boilers before.

[Frightning]

That 50% efficiency number always throws people off. Each boiler consumes 1.8MW of energy, and produces 900kW of energy. That's where the 50% comes in. The steam engines themselves are 100% efficient, and produce 900kW each. So, 1:1 ratio.

20 boilers require 36 MW of coal, or 8.6 miners.

Here is a screenshot showing one boiler drive two steam engines powering 6 radars for a total of 1.8 MWe. Notice that the tooltip for the power pole shows that 100% of electricity demand is being met.

OneBoilerTwoSteamEngines.png

For good measure, I timed that boiler consuming 50 coal at 112 seconds. 50 coal time 8 MJ each is 400 MJ. Dividing by 112 seconds yields the expected 3.6 MWt input from coal.

Hmm. Seems you're right then. Still, odd with the way they followed conventions. Opposite of how they did boilers before.

It's not opposite, it's the same, old 0.14 and before Boilers consumed fuel at a rate of 780kJ/s to produce 390kW, hence 1-14-10 setups.

[Aeternus]

Not exactly the same since they doubled the energy capacity of water - so you only need half the pumps now for the same amount of energy. So the rate becomes 1-10-20 on pumps/boilers/engines. A simpler ratio. The only annoying thing I've found is that the boilers are so wide that the early energy poles don't reach a steam engine behind it, preventing constructing a tight row of them until you research the medium poles. Well, unless you plop a pipe inbetween but that widens the pattern needlessly.

[BlackDeath]

Thanks for all the maths you do. Now I have a similar question:
When you research nuclear power you get the new steam turbines.
Even I know they can't work on 100%(low temperature steam) when you only use boilers but do they produce more electricity instead of the "normal" steam engines?
I tried a few setups but can't find any differences.

[Aeternus]

They can consume 60/s of fluid instead of 30/s for standard steam engines, so they can consume the entire output of a single boiler. When using 165dgr steam, their maximum power output at 60/s fluid use is 1.8MW therefor. So yea, they can produce more electricity per turbine, but that energy still has to be made by the boilers.