Science Pack Balancing

[smboss]

I find that the blue science packs are way too costly. I will have a dozen or so labs and I can research a tech requiring only red and green science packs. I can sustain research indefinitely with only 2-3 iron furnaces and 1-2 copper furnaces. Blue science packs require everything under the sun to make. When I try to research a tech with blue science packs it will wipe my entire production line clean even while having more than a dozen furnaces for both iron and copper. I think its great having a way to put my factory to the test but the blue science packs are too much too fast. Perhaps make the green slightly more expensive by adding a third input so red has 2 input, green has 3, and blue has 4. Also, maybe this would be better, make the purple science packs the ultimate science pack. I kill the biter bases early so they don't grow as the pollution rises and I end up with more alien artifacts than I know what to do with. Instead, make the purple science pack require other inputs in addition to the alien artifacts (like express belt sections or something).

[Phy]

I think the cost is fine (minus T4, as it doesn't require anything factory related). If anything, the research cost is the wierd part. The research recipes require the same amount of each science pack, rather than more of the previous packs, like I would expect. There's not a lot of incentive to keep building on the T1 or T2 lines, especially when some research takes longer (45-60 sec/unit) which then allows more packs to build up on the line.

Whether the game should have exponential research cost rather than the linear cost, is a different topic.

[Tenebrous]

Whether the game should have exponential research cost rather than the linear cost, is a different topic.

This makes a lot of sense. By the time you're on blue/alien, you have stockpiles of red & green and everything is backed up.

[ssilk]

When I come to the blues I need about 25 furnaces for iron and 20 for copper. You just need to dig deeper.

And that is nothing when you really start to go outside. Guys, I know this is currently not needed, but with v0.12 and later content will be added per sure, the rocket defense is only the first step. See into the roadmap, there it is planned.

Or in other words: no change needed, the dimensions are just much bigger than most assume.

To the suggestions about green science packs: well, yeas and no. I see there is a big gap between green and blue science packs. With v0.9 this is already smaller, than with 0.8. Your suggestion to have three items needed doesn't work, cause at that stage we only have assembly 1 - when I remember right?

There is already a mod which uses 8 science packs instead of 4. Don't remember the name and don't know, if it still works.

[bulldog98]

Hm you need to make inserters and these require 3 inputs.

[hoho]

The cost of the pack is fine in my opinion but the alien-one should be more expensive in terms of non-artifact materials.

Though, as was mentioned, it would be more logical higher-end researches would require more lower-level science packs. As long as they are more or less equal one doesn't really need to increase the lower-level science pack assembly lines the further into research they get into.

I'd say it would make sense to have the number of science packs multiplied through by some constant depending on the amount of different packs used in recipe. E.g 2^(num_sciencepacks_in_recipe - 1).
That way all recipes using only red packs would keep their current numbers, stuff using red and green would need 2x more red packs. Things using red, green and blue would need 4x more red packs, 2x more green and stuff using 4 packs would require 8x more red, 4x more green and 2x more blue packs.

[Sander Buruma]

you need to make about 8 electronic circuits a second to produce blue packs at a decent rate (7 of those go to smart inserters). As someone else stated, you need lots of miners and furnaces to produce blue packs at a decent rate. If you get oil sorted out early and 4 blue assemblers producing circuits constantly (fed by 30 & 20 copper & iron miners+furnaces) you shouldn't have much trouble... blue science forces you to think big.

[Nova]

Could you make a screenshot of your blue science factory and of the laboratories? (Or upload your savegame.)

I use 10 laboratories and research production module 3, and my blue science packs back up. Three blue assemblers work on the science packs and i have a forth back up assembler.
All in all i think the blue sciences packs are not too cheap. A fifth, even more expensive science pack would be nice, but it's not as easy to route them into the laboratories.

I like the way the red science packs are managed. You change so much factories in the game to a new, modern variant, but the red and green science packs stay the same for the whole game. I like.

[Sander Buruma]

this may give a general idea.
http://puu.sh/agxDo/e6b1c53e65.jpg

[bobingabout]

Generally speaking, I build up my production line for T1 and T2 science packs, then expand it slowly to about 4 factories for each, which feed a dozon labs, and then I never expand it, the only expansions I make to it later is for T2 and T3 factories (and more with my mod.

once I have this set up, I then basically burn through all researchs that can possibly use only T1 and T2 while I expand my chains, untill I can make T3.

At this point, I build 2 or 3 Science pack 3 factories, and 1 for alien science, making sure my production can feed these factories.


That's basically how the first part of your game works, you're literally building up to being able to do research. Once the T3 science system is up and running, it's alien hunting time to get the alien science.

[lxl]

I'd like to see something like
science green requires 2x science red and one inserter,
science blue requires 2x science green, 1 battery and one red circuit,
science purple requires 2x science green and one artefact.

So I would need to increase the production of lower level science packs when i am getting the higher levels.

[The Phoenixian]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Science packs are less about being a resource cost in and of themselves and more about pushing the player to add certain facilities and production lines to their factory. On which note, how well do you think adding all their variants of teir 2 modules to the production requirement of alien science packs would go to both making tier four science part of the factory and encouraging players to build and use modules?

[n9103]

If it would end up a net gain over the current 10:1 ratio, I would say that's a decent addition.
Otherwise, it's focusing on the post-endgame, rather than the intended goal. Something that I'm not opposed to mods for, but stock shouldn't specifically cater to if it will affect pre-endgame.

[FatMcK]

I also think that that science production gets boring in mid/end game. If you have set up red, green and blue production and set an assembler for purple you are done for the rest of the game. But I don't really like the idea to just increase production of the lower science packs to produce the higher one. It would just be copy and pasting what you already have and consume more resources. I would prefer some more puzzeling for endgame science.

What I'm thinking about would be dividing between early science and late science. We would start with red, yellow (instead of green) and blue science without much change to what we have now. And instead of the 'boring' purple packs I would add three new ones, orange, green and purple.

Orange would be made of a red, a yellow and a white* science pack plus a fourth ingredient.
Green would be made of a yellow, a blue and a white* science pack plus a fourth ingredient.
Purple would be made of a red, a blue and a white* science pack plus a fourth ingredient.

*White science packs are intermediate science packs that couldn't be used directly for research. They could be made in two ways. The simple way would be out of alien artifacts. The second way would be something real expensive resource and time wise. The second way would be an alternative for situations where you are to weak to hunt for artifacts (Currently where you have researched anything but purple research and don't have high end armor and its modules and not fully upgraded weapons, with which you have to attack lots of big biters and worms.) or for people that just like it really big and expensive.

This would bring us a big puzzeling factor for late science. Do you use your current science production to feed the new assembling lines? How to distribute them evenly? Use splitters or circuit networks? Use an unefficient way of self regulation while some packs overflows? Or will you build the low packs new for the late packs? And how will you setup your labs which needs up to six science packs? Or will you go the boring way with logistic robots?

[bobingabout]

I'd like to see something like
science green requires 2x science red and one inserter,
science blue requires 2x science green, 1 battery and one red circuit,
science purple requires 2x science green and one artefact.

I on the other hand dislike this type of thing, It's one of the things I hate about Circuits for example, to make Advanced you need to pour lots of standards into it, to make Processing units you need lots of Standards and Advanceds. Just throwing more and more of the same resources into it.

As science stands now, I like the way it works, pack 1 requires 2 easy to make things, pack 2 requires 2 slightly harder to make things, pack 3 requires 4 fairly hard to make things. the best thing about the step from 2 to 3 is the ammount of extra difficulty, and primary resources that are required to make it.

[tecxx]

i was and still am really disappointed about how easy science pack 4's are made. i would expect the super ultra complex production line for pack 4, which tops 1, 2 and 3 combined.
would appreciate a change in this regard....

the idea to require more red and green packs for higher tech levels (e.g. logarithmic?) sounds also good.

[ssilk]

I won't say it's easy, we need to produce capsules with enormous amounts of resources to get them.

[tecxx]

capsules? whats that?
no i'm serious. and can even prove this with replays: didnt build a single of them.
we just spammed towers, and took a roundtrip with the tank. each round one biter nest goes down. sack in the results, we got half a box full of those pink globes. and we played with "hard" setting.
i am aware that this part will get balanced and improved "soon". but right now tech 4 production is actually easier than tech 1.

[bobingabout]

but right now tech 4 production is actually easier than tech 1.

try doing that the moment you start the game then.

It may be easy to make alien science once you get the parts, but getting those parts requires a lot of effort. The effort I speak of is not directly attacking the nests when you're ready, but it's the getting ready, such as researching and building your armor and weapons that takes the time.