Queuing orders (+shift in many RTS) and Ghost mode

[Claudius1729]

Suggestion: When you use Ghost building mode, if you have the buildings in your inventory, and the Ghost is in reach, then the building should be placed upon the ghost.

This would be Factorio version of queueing orders that every RTS has since the beginning of the 2000's at least (earlier for the first case uses). In many RTSs, you can use a key like shift to queue orders (like a patrol, or even building orders for your workers). For some reason, this isn't possible in Factorio.

Because it's definitely weird that you can't queue orders without researching a T3 technology and building robots.

This isn't really a "technology" issue in Factorio's tech tree, it is a quality of life and UI issue. There shouldn't be any need to research a technology for the avatar-engineer in the game to simply plan their next actions, it should be part of the core game. It also saves a lot of wasteful clicks and actions.


As for the mod question, here's a mod that does what I describe:
https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Nexela/PickerExtended

[Metzger43]

What you're talking about just requires robots to do. There are many lazy mods that allow what you're describing. I don't think it's really something that needs to be included in the base game

[ssilk]

AFAIK this is more or less already implemented in 0.15.

[Claudius1729]

ssilk, would you happen to know where the developers mentioned it? I've read that unofficial patchlog made by players:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xug ... wkill054at

But I didn't see it anywhere

What you're talking about just requires robots to do. There are many lazy mods that allow what you're describing. I don't think it's really something that needs to be included in the base game

I would like to understand the reasoning behind why you shouldn't be able to queue orders (a basic RTS function) in a game where you're laying hundred of structures before reaching robots?

I genuinely don't understand so I would like to hear your thoughts on the subject.

[ssilk]

ssilk, would you happen to know where the developers mentioned it? I've read that unofficial patchlog made by players:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Xug ... wkill054at

But I didn't see it anywhere

Ah, I now understand, what you really mean. No this works not like so!

As I understand it, that would mean, that something isn't build, until a former construction is finished?

If yes: What if just one item is missing? A lamp?
And how do you know if something is really finished, if you build two blueprints so, that they are "shrinked" together? Like a wall with laser defense for one blueprint and you can fill the space inside with some kind of production, like smelting or refinery?
And similar questions.

[Claudius1729]

Queuing orders exactly like in old RTS wouldn't be efficient for Factorio that is true. I should have used another word maybe. But there is already something in Factorio that allows you to "see" and put down what you want to build: Ghost Mode. So it would be interesting just to use that.

The mod I linked ( https://mods.factorio.com/mods/Nexela/PickerExtended ) does it in a basic way, you can see it at work in the image the mod author linked:

https://mods-data.factorio.com/pub_data ... 7dyHtR.gif

I hope this image explains my suggestion a bit better.

You place the ghost of everything you want to build, and if you have the building in your inventory and you are in reach of the ghost, they get placed down. Maybe you have to hold down a key, point the cursor at it, I can't say exactly how powerful should the functionality be. But it's basically about saving clicks and you having to reach in your toolbelt or inventory everytime to fetch the correct item. There are also other benefits such as visualizing your layout and avoiding layout mistakes. And as soon as you can use Blueprints, then the two synergize extremely well.

[IronCartographer]

Related: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43531

Placing ghosted structures the same way the submachine gun auto-targets biters but using the axe seems like a really cool way to implement this, hence that post. I'm sure they'll go with something satisfying.

[SupplyDepoo]

Nope. This is a bad suggestion. First of all Factorio isn't an RTS game like other RTS games. The reason you have shift-queuing in other RTS games is because you have many different units and this allows you to multi-task. In Factorio you only have one unit that the camera is always centered on. There's no need for shift-queuing.

If you want to build something, just walk within range and place it normally instead of ghost-placing and then walking within range. You literally just have to do these two steps in the reverse order.

Also, ghosts are useful for planning things. It would suck if I'm holding 1 belt and I place a ghost and it's automatically built and now I can't place anymore ghosts.

Just no.

[Claudius1729]

I am not suggesting to do exactly like other RTS, just have the concept of queuing actions available in the game. The reason queuing orders in RTS is so popular it's because it saves so many clicks and time. If one can save time and clicks in Factorio with a simple solution, then I feel that solution must be used.

Why wouldn't you be able to place any more ghosts?
Nothing would prevent you from building more ghosts.

Also this feature would synergize well with blueprints (who will be more accessible in 0.15).

For instance I could make a blueprint of my basic furnace smelting unit, then place them rapidly in the guise of ghosts, then just build them.

[SupplyDepoo]

The reason queuing orders in RTS is so popular it's because it saves so many clicks and time.

Yeah, because in a traditional RTS you have many tasks to do in different places in a short amount of time. In Factorio there's no unlocked camera that can jump around, so there's no need for queuing actions.

If one can save time and clicks in Factorio with a simple solution, then I feel that solution must be used.

You're not saving clicks with this idea, though. You literally just want to reverse the order of 1) go where you want to build something, 2) click.

Why wouldn't you be able to place any more ghosts?
Nothing would prevent you from building more ghosts.

Because if I'm in range it'll automatically place the entity and you can't create ghosts without having at least one of that entity item.

Also this feature would synergize well with blueprints (who will be more accessible in 0.15).

For instance I could make a blueprint of my basic furnace smelting unit, then place them rapidly in the guise of ghosts, then just build them.

Are you talking about making automated construction available earlier in the tech tree than flying robots? Because the devs are already aware of this issue. See FFF-160. I'm sure they can come up with something better than your idea.

[Claudius1729]

The reason queuing orders in RTS is so popular it's because it saves so many clicks and time.

Yeah, because in a traditional RTS you have many tasks to do in different places in a short amount of time. In Factorio there's no unlocked camera that can jump around, so there's no need for queuing actions.

There's already a feature in the game that saves a lot of time by queuing actions: it's robots + blueprints, so I'm not sure why you keep saying there's no need to queue actions where a lot of players actually enjoy that feature already and it is considered a core part of the game. I just want a limited version of that feature right from the start.

Besides, even when you have one unit, it's beneficial to queue orders and save time, because it frees you time in the immediate future to make other decisions, to think, to focus, to plan.
Just like when you begin a game of Supreme Commander, you have one unit, yet many players will queue orders right at the start. Or in MOBAs, where you usually control one unit, you can also queue orders sometimes to pre-plan stuff.

A tiny benefit in Factorio, that is true, but still a benefit to add to the main benefit, which I explain below.

If one can save time and clicks in Factorio with a simple solution, then I feel that solution must be used.

You're not saving clicks with this idea, though. You literally just want to reverse the order of 1) go where you want to build something, 2) click.

At the very basic level, you would be planning better, and thus saving time. Put down the ghosts of the section in advance, then build them. Example:



Solution1: I could either put down two furnaces, four inserters, 12 belts, 2 poles, etc. which saves the time of walking multiple time along the bus, but not clicks.
Solution2: Or put down all the furnaces, then all the inserters, then all the belts, etc. Which saves a few clicks, but not the time of walking multiple times along the bus.

With ghosts+, I would have the better of the two world, and have the minimum amount of click of solution 2, and the time of solution 1.

Then when you combine it with blueprints, the gain of time is obvious.

Why wouldn't you be able to place any more ghosts?
Nothing would prevent you from building more ghosts.

Because if I'm in range it'll automatically place the entity and you can't create ghosts without having at least one of that entity item.

That's not really an argument against the idea fundamentally. If we change ghosts, then we also should change ghosts limitation to accomodate for the idea. Make it require an action to construct ghosts in range, which would save a lot of clicks, or change the UI slightly.

As to what UI action would be better, what ghosts to prioritize, etc., those are still in the air.

Also this feature would synergize well with blueprints (who will be more accessible in 0.15).

For instance I could make a blueprint of my basic furnace smelting unit, then place them rapidly in the guise of ghosts, then just build them.

Are you talking about making automated construction available earlier in the tech tree than flying robots? Because the devs are already aware of this issue. See FFF-160. I'm sure they can come up with something better than your idea.

It's not technologically automated if the engineer is doing the construction. It's just serialized construction done quicker and better. As I said before, it should not be a tech issue.
Your engineer is perfectly able to see and plan a few buildings in advance. In fact, by putting down the ghosts, you've given a list of instructions to the engineer that you could painfully execute click by click, or that could be done by the engineer as it's not rocket science.

And I'm glad the devs are aware of the issue, but then you should be aware that so far 0.15 isn't solving the issue from what we know, just making robots available earlier. Unless miraculously blueprints are available right at the start, and when I use them, my engineer will go build the ghosts. That is also what I am suggesting.

[SupplyDepoo]

There's already a feature in the game that saves a lot of time by queuing actions: it's robots + blueprints, so I'm not sure why you keep saying there's no need to queue actions where a lot of players actually enjoy that feature already and it is considered a core part of the game. I just want a limited version of that feature right from the start.

That's not what queuing is. That's just automation/delegation.

Besides, even when you have one unit, it's beneficial to queue orders and save time, because it frees you time in the immediate future to make other decisions, to think, to focus, to plan.

Nope, it doesn't. You'd just be staggering those decisions and splitting your focus for no real purpose.

Just like when you begin a game of Supreme Commander, you have one unit, yet many players will queue orders right at the start. Or in MOBAs, where you usually control one unit, you can also queue orders sometimes to pre-plan stuff.

I fail to see how something like this would work in Factorio.

At the very basic level, you would be planning better, and thus saving time. Put down the ghosts of the section in advance, then build them. Example:



Solution1: I could either put down two furnaces, four inserters, 12 belts, 2 poles, etc. which saves the time of walking multiple time along the bus, but not clicks.
Solution2: Or put down all the furnaces, then all the inserters, then all the belts, etc. Which saves a few clicks, but not the time of walking multiple times along the bus.

With ghosts+, I would have the better of the two world, and have the minimum amount of click of solution 2, and the time of solution 1.

Then when you combine it with blueprints, the gain of time is obvious.

I don't understand your example. You still have to click once for each entity, and you still have to walk up and down the row of furnaces. You're not saving clicks, you're not saving time. It just doesn't make sense to me.

That's not really an argument against the idea fundamentally. If we change ghosts, then we also should change ghosts limitation to accomodate for the idea. Make it require an action to construct ghosts in range, which would save a lot of clicks, or change the UI slightly.

Now you're making a little more sense. Still, this would only be useful in combination with blueprints.

Your engineer is perfectly able to see and plan a few buildings in advance. In fact, by putting down the ghosts, you've given a list of instructions to the engineer that you could painfully execute click by click, or that could be done by the engineer as it's not rocket science.

But by putting down the ghosts you've already painfully executed a lot of clicks... unless you used blueprints.

And I'm glad the devs are aware of the issue, but then you should be aware that so far 0.15 isn't solving the issue from what we know, just making robots available earlier.

Well, that'll partially solve the issue, depending on how early the construction robots will be available. But they haven't actually confirmed that this will come with 0.15.

Unless miraculously blueprints are available right at the start, and when I use them, my engineer will go build the ghosts. That is also what I am suggesting.

Yeah, and I think this would be useful - as long as it's done via a dedicated hotkey.

[Claudius1729]

I'll wait for 0.15 and repost my suggestion more clearly worded. My compareason with RTSs has unnecessarily muddied the water. I'm also curious to see what's going to happen with blueprints.

I don't understand your example. You still have to click once for each entity, and you still have to walk up and down the row of furnaces. You're not saving clicks, you're not saving time. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Solution1:
If you do one walk, switching between items as you walk down your assembly line, then each time you switch items, you add an action compared to solution 2. If you use the toolbelt it's just that, one action. But those actions add up.

Solution2:
If you go first the furnaces, then all the inserters, etc.

Then you walk up and down the line as many times as the type of items you're laying down in your range. So in a simple furnace line, you would have to walk at least 4 times as much as solution 1 (furnace, inserter, pole, belt).

Now given how far up the tech tree automation and blueprints are, you're doing solution 1 or solution 2 for a few hours in a classic game of Factorio. When you lay down 20 furnaces in a row, with solution 1 you are wasting at least 80 or more actions. With solution 2, you are walking the assembly line multiple times.

Additionally, if you make a mistake in this tedious process, fixing your layout can also eat some time (depending on the kind of mistake). With blueprints and ghost+ building, the likeliness of mistake like that severely decreases.


And yes of course, my general idea is to evaluate with blueprints in mind. Let's see in 0.15 how they changed that.