Circuit Net Ideas

[Wolfie]

do you think we could have more circ modules like: more colored wires,more signals (lowercase letters, programmable constants (like these signals= this signal types of thing), "programmable" signal algors, map/ position circuitry programables, etc

[ssilk]

New circuits will come with 0.15.
Other stuff is more or less thing of mods.

[Wolfie]

New circuits will come with 0.15.
Other stuff is more or less thing of mods.

Want kind of new circ things? (unless of course its oneo of those suprise types of things)

[ssilk]

Some. Get inspired by viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30853 Circuit network features for 0.15

[Shiandow]

Any chance combinators will get special 'each red' / 'each green' signals that work the same as 'each' but only return the values of the red / green network respectively? It would be amazing if you could multiply two sets of signals together (other operations would also be nice, but multiplication is the most important). You could use this to e.g. filter out a subset of signals, or even perform linear algebra.

[PadreSperanza]

Well, I have another idea for circuit networks: The idea of using two different colors for two different kinds of networks is quite good. But when you are at that high research-tech-level to be able to have intelligent networks which are counting everything in that network and where you can use all of their information for effiency upgrades, wouldnt it be better to go a step deeper in that technology? Instead of having 2 techs split by color it would be much more awesome use something like "internet"-working. So use green and red wires (and even more colors) to create your network for you optical view but let all of these colored wires be able to transmit all datas of all wires.

So in my opinion it would be great to add another specification for input and output which is used to address the logics you want to use.
For example: Implement something like IP-adresses (e.g. 0 - 9) or blocks to use. Every wire is able to submit every data in every IP-adress-block. That means you can connect everything in your network with red wire (or green for optical split) even two different iron plates productions you have without the needs of any attention to wire-connection. You can connect everything to the same wire but distingish the two iron productions by adding 'IP-adress 1' to the first iron-prod.-output and 'IP-adress 2' for second one and if needed 'IP-adress 3' for iron production sum and so on.
So you can use different Networks in network-wires to have much more flexibility to use. So you can, for example, use network 1 (iron Prod. 1) in input and compare it with iron prod. 2 even on large distance.
For now, when you connect both iron productions to same wire it'S the sum. To different them, you need to split into two different networks and this makes it more complicated. But with an aditional adress (Own network block) it's more easily to create.
So you could implement this into research. So every level of research add another logical network to use.
And with this optimization you can also impliment combined hardware. I am thinking about something like 'servers'. Servers need elect. power to work. And those servers are able to combine the hardware already exists - like an arithmetic and decider combinator in one hardware or more on. This would create more stuff for researching, handle networks more practical and easily and would give you the chance to make the the logical-programming smarter and would save much of space. For example: lvl 1 -> normal decider, lvl 2 -> AND-gate && OR-gate, lvl 3 -> NOR, XOR, NAND-gates (so you do not need to build them yourself which means to use a lot of space), lvl 4 combined AND and OR-gates or give them more inputs and/or more outputs, lvl 5 -> Impulse-gate, RS-Flipflop, turn-on/off-delays, etc.

I great feature I really would love to have to have much more possibilites in using automatical and logical factories and of course makes it all much easier to use. And with every level of intelligent-logical-circuits researched more logical standard-operation-hardware is availibe to use.

I hope you can understand what I am talking about... my english isn't that well.

[ssilk]

Why then even making wires, if you just need to connect anything with everything. It makes no sense.

What you describe is WLAN. There are mods (something with radio?) and more suggestions to have that implemented.

But that has nothing to do with circuit network.

[PadreSperanza]

Will it has.

Our real internet is srongly built on wires. When you think there is no sense to do it think about this: you can connect a normal network like now. Nothing changed within this. Now this is a local area network. Now you can build a Server-Centre (doesn't need to be cheap at all) to connect the local area to it. With stronger wires you can connect your data centers (e.g. Blue wires) to transmit datas over large areas. So a connection between two Data-Centers can transmit one piece of information per level.
That would give you the possibility to transmit signals over large areas without having red or green networks spreading the world. Because you could use data Centre's network to transmit far reachable signals.
This also need to be planned. And Data Centres should cost a lot of power to run to makes it more expansive to use. But then you could decide to use or not use this functions for global overall signals.
"Just" implement an abstraction of our internet to the game to make it comfortable but tricky to use

[ssilk]

Our real internet is srongly built on wires. When you think there is no sense to do it think about this: you can connect a normal network like now. Nothing changed within this. Now this is a local area network. Now you can build a Server-Centre (doesn't need to be cheap at all) to connect the local area to it. With stronger wires you can connect your data centers (e.g. Blue wires) to transmit datas over large areas. So a connection between two Data-Centers can transmit one piece of information per level.

I understand that and you are right. But it has no game-value to let the player connect "everything". It's no fun. See viewtopic.php?f=6&t=27087

The "picture" of that is clear. But if you take that picture: Even in very modern intern-/network-structure not everything is connected with everything. There are many reasons to split networks. It makes in reality no sense to connect everything with everything.

That would give you the possibility to transmit signals over large areas without having red or green networks spreading the world. Because you could use data Centre's network to transmit far reachable signals.

That's the theory. Now please make one or two specific examples, how that should be useful in Factorio. And useful means: Playable and fun. That's not like reality. See linked article above.

This also need to be planned. And Data Centres should cost a lot of power to run to makes it more expansive to use. But then you could decide to use or not use this functions for global overall signals.

You are making step two before step one. Please explain more detailed, how you think that would have a game-value (in the sense of "playing" with this system around).

"Just" implement an abstraction of our internet to the game to make it comfortable but tricky to use

... but still too unspecific.

[PadreSperanza]

Okay. Let me expand with my theory.

I love to take the time to optimize my productions. For example I use many productions for iron plates. One is in the north, one west, one south of my factory. To have a working flow and do not use electricity for mines or assambling machines that cannot produce because there is a over production of this I connect them to a logical network to read the production rates and compare them with the consuming rates. As long as the difference is close under the golden ratio, the switches to mining areas are on. If the difference is over golden rat. my assambling machines are reduced in power.
Therefore it is important to get the overall process which is possible easily by connecting everything to one network.

But now I have the specific way that some productions of items of the same kind are not delivered by all iron plates I am creating but by the southern ones. So I want to switch off the way the iron could take for other productions. Therefore I need to get the overall signal of just the southern area. The global network is used by all plates so I need to create a new one or use a specific signal (e.g. a-z). But in that case you want to create everything with circuits and logical ways, the additional signals may be used already. So the only way is to create new networks apart of others. You can do it for sure but because of the power poles you need to grind wires the whole factory looks like a horror scenario.

And after 100 networks onto your factories and power poles just everywhere it's not that easy to plan or build machines the way you (or in this case I) like to.

So this brought me to this idea.

For my scenario I need following "instruments" (explanation later on):
-red/green wire for LAN
-other colored network wire for DSL
-A Server/Routing Point for interaction with LAN
-A Data Centre (DC) for transmitting and recieving special data of interest.

The first step would be to create a local area network (the way you are already doing this). For example you can count the amount of iron plates production or the amount of iron plates availible in a special area (chests, on transport belt, etc.). This data would be transmitted in the whole LAN with red and green wire. Both do the same but the changed color is quite good for visual and optical things or even when you need to handle two different LANs on the same places. That's all to say to red/green wires (i call LAN here) because everyone knows this way aroung.

Server/Routing Points: The server/routing points (R/SP) are the interfaces you need to use to connect the inforamtion to the DataCentre with "internet/DSL". The R/SP is connected to the LAN with normal red/green wire on one of the sides. The S/RP itself is handled like the combinators but transmit everything of its LAN-information to net DSL-network (what happenens to network is explaning at DataCentre) but is only able to recieve a few information from the data centre (which may be needed to get some information you need for combinator's decisions). For example lvl 1 R/SP is able to recieve 1 signal, lvl 2 recieves 2 and lvl 3 4 signals... or something like this.

DataCentre: The DataCentre is the main structure of this internet. The DataStructure can only be connected within blue DSL-wires to other DataCentres or to R/SPs. The main difference between DC and R/SP is that the R/SP is able to transmit everything in his LAN to DSL but the DC is only able to recieve and handle a few signals to the DSL-network. DataCentres are only availible to handle (1+lvl) items in their network (how many levels DCs can be upgrades is not relavant at this moment. So while the R/SP theoreticly could transmit everything to DC the DC will only ask for two specific data-values (on lvl1).
In our example you can select in the DC the network with internal ID 1 (Iron Plates) and this DataCentre will handle these dataValues. So every other DataCentre connected to this one is able to read the Network-1-Iron-Value when these DCs are also set up for ID-1-Iron-Values.
So if you decide to have two or even more DataCentres to transmit this signal over a large area you need to set up ID-1-Iron-Signal in every DataCentre which is transmitting this signal. The second Iron production you build on the other half of the factory can now set up in the second transmitting slot (level 1 DC has 2 slots) and gets the value for the new network ID (e.g. 319). So the DCs are now transmitting both iron plates signals (when set up in every DC which needs to transmit these signals) seperatly. If you need to use them for arethmetic or something else you can build a R/SP and let the R/SP recieve both signals and turn them into specific signals in its own LAN to take you calculations. These calculations can be made far far away from the factory on a place you do not need for anything else. After you have made a new signal you can transmit this signal to you R/SP and transport this via the DC (on blue DSL wires) when the DC reaches the level to handle that many different signals.
But there are some restrictions to that DCs. A DC is only able to connect a small amount of R/SP at the same time and just a few numbers of other DCs. First: Every DC who has R/SP(s) connected to it can only be connected to one more DC. Every DC which is not connected to any R/SP can communicate with 3 other DCs to transmit and recieve dataValues. To bring up Signal A from DC1 over DC 2, DC3 and DC4, all DCs need to be set up with this signal A. When any DC in the transmitting path is not transmitting signal A the dataValue of signal A is not transmited to the last DCs and stops where the continous path stops. A higher level DC is able to transmit more values. But the other DCs will only get the values they contain. For example:
we have 5 DCs in cross. DC "centre" is in the centre and the DCs "north", "south", "west" and "east" are at their positions. All of them are only connected to DC "centre". North is level 1 and transmit ID1-Iron-Plates. West is lvl 1 and transmit ID1-Iron Plates and ID1-Copper-Plates. South is lvl 2 and transmit ID1-Copper-Plates, ID4-coal and ID9-oil, east is lvl 2 and transmit ID3-Iron Plates, ID18-munition and ID9-oil. Centre is lvl 4 and transmit ID1-Iron Plates, ID4-coal, ID3-Iron-Plates and ID9-oil.
That means that north can see west's Iron-Plate's value because it's transmitted by west, centre and itself.
west only notice the ID1-Iron Plates but not south's Copper Plates because ID1-Copper Plates are not grind by the DC centre.
East and south are connected within ID9 oil. Centre is seeing ID4's coal value from east but not the number of munition.
the blue wire has max. length of 40 tiles and can only be connected to DCs or R/SPs with the limitation that a R/SP can only be 5 tiles away from DC. The blue wires cannot be extended by power poles and are not shown on the map. These blue wires' connections are only displayed when you click onto a DC. The reason is: They are laying underground.

These districtions make the DC useful for single signals but will not make them to overpowered because they are only transmitting a few little signals. But the best point is that you can transmit single signals over the whole map in an uncomplicated way without confusing yourself with tons of red and green wires all around. But when you need more signals you have to build more DCs and connect them wisely. But they are expensive to not overfill the world with them and use them only when needed.

Because DCs needs some security expansions it's better to build them with cement, steel, copper wires (for electricity in the building) and [servers] (of course a DC needs to have servers to work)
Servers created with [serverframes] and [Computers].
Serverframes are created with are Iron Plates, Copper Plates and plastic (to make the frames solid)
Computers are created with Processing Units, [Twisted-Pair-Wire], green circuit and plastic

R/SP are build with [Computer] and [Computerframes] and red circuits (doen't knwo the name for them now )
Computerframes are build the same way [serverframes] are but for 1/4 of their costs because you only need one computer in there.

DSL-wire (e.g. blue) is created with [Twisted-Pair-Wire], red circuits and green circuits (so here are the network-cards integrated)
[Twisted-Pair-Wires] are created with copper wire, red-wire, green-wire and [Wire-coat] (for data-wires and coat)
[Wire-Coat] is created with plastic, iron plates and lubricant (Plastic for the coat, iron plates for protective Screen and grounding and lubricant for the overall processing of wires)


The items to be built with or the item's values and level-strength are just examples. Of course this needs to be balanced. But this way you could get some easy way to handle single signals but with a price of high costs and long producing times and steps in here.

I hope I have showed up what I mean with this. And with these restrictions and the example I do not find that this solution is useless or overpowered. It's a solution for single signals transprtet over large areas withing their costs, positive and negative characteristics

[ssilk]

Pfffff...

Some questions:
- You know that it is not fun to connect 500 tiles by cable?
- Do you really mean that DSL, twisted pair, LAN etc. is the right technology in 200 years?
- Do you really mean, that everything needs to be connected by wire or is eventually wireless more useful?

... all in all too complex. You need to reduce the idea to the essence.

[PadreSperanza]

Wireless would be easier but in that case maybe to easy to use.
It's neither important whether DSL,LAN etc. are the future's technology nor how you name it. The names where such an example to make my idea more understandable and to create relations to something existing for others to understand.
I have connected more then 500 tiles by wires but with 100 power poles On the way. So my DataCentre would give a little expansion to the possibilities. And because I want to lay the wires underground there wouldn't be that many wires hanging around to confuse.

Too complex? Well for some people it would be, yes. But for those people Even the normal logic gates would be complex too. A good game needs to be complex in my opinion to be good because I want some difficultness to get myself happier when constructing working parts of it. And Factorio is a complex game at all so it perfectly would pass in it.
It'll be boring when everything is just a simple thing to do, isn't it?
And my idea is an idea "On the mind". Of course they may are points to improve it or some things to handle it more easier or on a better way. But that's way we can make our suggestions here. To give others the possibilities to rate it, improve the idea and - for the last step - may convince the developers. Even when they have the last word on it and do not implement it. They may think about that idea and take little parts of it to implement when useful or implement this idea their own way.
But in my opinion this setup would perfectly pass in that kind of progress that is already implemented in the game. It's complex, would give a special solution to a special problem and expand the ingame features.
I made a whole idea from the problem over the possible solution's way. Now it's to others to think whether this is useful or not.

[Engimage]

Factorio is a game for building complex stuff out of basic elements.
The resulting solution should be visually readable.
Making it all work "somehow" behind scenes is not a good idea.
Why not to introduce an Arduino simulator in-game with a text code and multiple in/out ports? Because you can't visually understand what is the purpose of this device.
So if you need to connect two points in Factorio - there should be a wire between them. Even if you get a wireless transmitter for the circuit network, you should be able to identify where is it connect wirelessly.
If you implement internet - you can never know how things work when you look at them.

[PadreSperanza]

in my case I have explained how everything works. And there is nothing you cannot understand working. Everything at my solution is understandable and the solution to DC is simple like the roboport. Connection is shown with hover on with mouse

[ssilk]

Well, I just gave tips, for example the pure length of an explanation is directly proportional to the complexity it has.
And added complexity doesn't mean in all cases more game-value, more fun.

[Yoyobuae]

The resulting solution should be visually readable.

Circuit network solutions are not visually readable. Wires are often ambiguous, ALT info is not complete (even with signals overlay, which covers the operator).

Every circuit network solution I create needs to be accompanied for a lengthy explanation and diagrams and blueprint strings to have any hope of being understood by others.

@PadreSperanza: There are a few ways to multiplex many same-type signals over a single circuit network. There's the obvious "turn IRON signal into SIGNAL-A" kind of solution. There's also a fancier time-division-multiplexing solution. Heh, could even implement a simple token-ring network.

I'm a fan of circuit network personally. Something I've learned about using the circuit network: complexity kills.

It's just like programming really. Complex solutions results in complex programs and complex programs never come out right. Solutions needs to be as brain dead simple as possible, so that when unexpected problems arise the solution remains manageable.

[PadreSperanza]

I'm a fan of circuit network personally. Something I've learned about using the circuit network: complexity kills.

It's just like programming really. Complex solutions results in complex programs and complex programs never come out right. Solutions needs to be as brain dead simple as possible, so that when unexpected problems arise the solution remains manageable.

yeah I know. That's the reason for my idea. This will split off the problems into little pieces to make them usable for other functions. In fact: instead of using complex connections and wires all over the factory you simply could create a little function in a small area and just the result is transmitted to the point I need it. It's like programming in real: Use you functions to give you the possibility to use it whenever you need to without changes.

Yes you can use the transform signal A to B method. But as I have written 3 or 4 posts before: When you try to connect many things to a network to make a logical work of this these signals may be used for other things. And: This doesn't solve the problems of clearity. Have network wires hanging around everywhere is just confusing after creating the 20th network for overall influence. So more colored wires would be nice but then I had the idea to give my creativity much more freedom. And The solution of this could be a nice feature.

But in fact: It seems to me that I am one out of just a few who really like to play the game the way we connect everything to everything to let it work with requirements only