Friday Facts #183 - Aiming for the release date

[Exasperation]

Regarding nuclear power - heat 'pipes' idea is just bad, what is it supposed to resemble? Steam pipes are already a 'heat carrying' pipes. Please, I'm not trying to be mean or anything, but comapre this implementation of nuclear power to what was mentioned at the beginning with cooling towers, closed water cycles and so on...

I've answered this before...

heat pipes are a real thing in utility scale power generation. For an example, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Ene ... ng_Systems. Specifically (from the linked article),

Heat transfer
The sunlight bounces off the mirrors and is directed to a central tube filled with synthetic oil, which heats to over 400 °C (750 °F). The reflected light focused at the central tube is 71 to 80 times more intense than the ordinary sunlight. The synthetic oil transfers its heat to water, which boils and drives the Rankine cycle steam turbine, thereby generating electricity. Synthetic oil is used to carry the heat (instead of water) to keep the pressure within manageable parameters.

If the reactor is something like one of these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molten_salt_reactor, then it makes perfect sense that there would be heat transfer pipes carrying heat between the reactor and the water to be converted to steam for power generation.

[Harkonnen]

1) allow blueprints and deconstruction planner to be used right from the beginning of the game, and make them craftable right away. Also make it so that if the player is within range of a ghost item and they have it in their inventory, it will automatically be placed for free. Same if near a deconstruction order and the player has space in their inventory, they automatically pick up the item. This is a solution to a problem that has been discussed before, even my Factorio staff, which is to provide some sort of early robots. I think this is an elegant solution, as anything within player range, a player can manually place anyway, so why not have the game just do the tedious work of placing the item automatically for free. This way it's also still balanced as it's not large/unlimited range as when you get a robotic network set up, but it also allows using blueprints right from the start of the game.

Well, I had similar ideas. Mostly due to tedious process of setting up early smelting lines where you need to be very careful at placing inserters/power-poles with accurate 1-2 tiles spacing like 20-30 times in a row, and then see you did it all wrong with respect to parallel smelting line, and have to redo everything. So - yes, automatic construction while running near ghost was considered an option (actually only when the player moves and only in his rear hemisphere, so that auto-placed entities do not block further running ahead).

Then Klonan came up with alternative idea - clicking on a ghost automatically builds that entity if you have it in you inventory and stay close enough (and you can hold mouse button while rolling over ghosts around). so together with early blueprints that will make setting repeating patterns of furnaces/assemblers much more fun, especially if early game takes longer. There is a chance that this will happen somewhere during 0.15. As for automatic deconstruction - I'd just remove deconstruction progress for entities marked for deconstruction (except trees of course) because it serves no gameplay purpose other than misclick protection, and sometimes even annoys when you have to deconstruct a long wall that you have built yourself in seconds. So if entity is marked for deconstruction - there is no need for that misclick protection. Still, there must be an explicit click (or hold-button roll over) to deconstruct entity into your inventory because otherwise you will have big problems with deconstruction planner when robots appear and tons of stuff will clutter your inventory just due to running near long transport-belt (or chest!) marked for robotic deconstruction.

[timeshifter]

Had an idea regarding turret creep and the combat revamp... "sensor nests", that can detect blueprint ghosts, and sends biters to block them. That'd make for some kind of opposition to turret creep without seeming like an arbitrary "screw you" to the tactic.

[Mr. Tact]

Disappointing, but perfectly acceptable.

[IronCartographer]

When copying from assembler or similar to a requester chest, please do so additively, so using a chest for two or more machines with different recipes would not require adding all the items for all but one recipe manually. Possibly something like clicking adds the items once per click? That would be easy for recipes that might share consumables.

Previous discussion here: viewtopic.php?p=181980#p181980

Adding 2x the recipe's ingredients per paste would work well.

[lingnau]

This is getting so good. <3

The downside: It completely makes me NOT WANT TO PLAY RIGHT NOW because I "rather wait for 0.15", just because I know that it's going to be that much better. Even these small changes have a profound impact to usability and gameplay. Very well done! Release it when it's ready and don't mind the trolls.

[factoriouzr]

1) allow blueprints and deconstruction planner to be used right from the beginning of the game, and make them craftable right away. Also make it so that if the player is within range of a ghost item and they have it in their inventory, it will automatically be placed for free. Same if near a deconstruction order and the player has space in their inventory, they automatically pick up the item. This is a solution to a problem that has been discussed before, even my Factorio staff, which is to provide some sort of early robots. I think this is an elegant solution, as anything within player range, a player can manually place anyway, so why not have the game just do the tedious work of placing the item automatically for free. This way it's also still balanced as it's not large/unlimited range as when you get a robotic network set up, but it also allows using blueprints right from the start of the game.

Well, I had similar ideas. Mostly due to tedious process of setting up early smelting lines where you need to be very careful at placing inserters/power-poles with accurate 1-2 tiles spacing like 20-30 times in a row, and then see you did it all wrong with respect to parallel smelting line, and have to redo everything. So - yes, automatic construction while running near ghost was considered an option (actually only when the player moves and only in his rear hemisphere, so that auto-placed entities do not block further running ahead).

Then Klonan came up with alternative idea - clicking on a ghost automatically builds that entity if you have it in you inventory and stay close enough (and you can hold mouse button while rolling over ghosts around). so together with early blueprints that will make setting repeating patterns of furnaces/assemblers much more fun, especially if early game takes longer. There is a chance that this will happen somewhere during 0.15. As for automatic deconstruction - I'd just remove deconstruction progress for entities marked for deconstruction (except trees of course) because it serves no gameplay purpose other than misclick protection, and sometimes even annoys when you have to deconstruct a long wall that you have built yourself in seconds. So if entity is marked for deconstruction - there is no need for that misclick protection. Still, there must be an explicit click (or hold-button roll over) to deconstruct entity into your inventory because otherwise you will have big problems with deconstruction planner when robots appear and tons of stuff will clutter your inventory just due to running near long transport-belt (or chest!) marked for robotic deconstruction.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I like that we are pretty much on the same page.

I think that things should be built right in front of the player as well (in fact all around the player 360 degrees). I get the running not being blocked, but if the items were already build anyway, the player would walk between the buildings, or would go around. I don't want to have to turn my character's back to something I want built every time. That would just get annoying very quickly. Also right now if the player places one or more blueprints on themselves and all around themselves, the robots (personal and from roboports) will build things in essentially random order based on various factors and can easily build in front of the player. This is a non issue now, and it will be a non issue with this new automated construction as well. Please don't introduce more inconsistency. Both forms of automated construction should build everything within range. If the player blocks themselves, that's their own fault as right now, you can do the same things with bots and block yourself. I don't see this point as an issue and turning my back to things is annoying.

I also don't get the restriction on the player having to move to construct things. Right now I can just sit beside something I want constructed with a personal roboport while I'm crafting the things I need and they get filled in automatically. This early game automated construction should work exactly the same as the personal roboport. This way it's also consistent.

For the idea about dragging your mouse over entities to build them, that's not bad, but I still think my suggestion of building everything within range is better. One big reason for this is that hovering your mouse over many small things (1x1) like power poles or inserters is extremely annoying, to the point that you can easily miss a few inserters or powerpoles thinking everything is built when it's not. With this solution, it's almost like building things manually. Just place the blueprint then manually fill in each entity. Granted it's better, but it feels almost as tedious.

The deconstruction idea I like. You are right that there is no need for that progress bar for accidental right-click when something is already marked for deconstruction. I think that will improve gameplay.

I suggest two other related ideas to do with automated construction:
1) Add support for an upgrade planner like the upgrade planner mod into the base game and have it's settings saved or exportable with the player data such as the blueprint feature
2) make logistics request and auto trash slots upgradable forever (like the infinite research items) and make them be added to other tabs after a certain limit is reached or make the list scrollable. Also related to my other suggestion of merging auto trash and logistics requests into one slot.

Also what are your thoughts on my other suggestions for the game in the post you replied to?

[mophydeen]

I suggest two other related ideas to do with automated construction:
1) Add support for an upgrade planner like the upgrade planner mod into the base game and have it's settings saved or exportable with the player data such as the blueprint feature
2) make logistics request and auto trash slots upgradable forever (like the infinite research items) and make them be added to other tabs after a certain limit is reached or make the list scrollable. Also related to my other suggestion of merging auto trash and logistics requests into one slot.

Also what are your thoughts on my other suggestions for the game in the post you replied to?

yes to both but the logistic request slot should work like the auto trash slot. only show 1 empty slot at a time.
much cleaner that way.
The is shown in the bonus tab/table anyway (if it isn't it should be).

[factoriouzr]

I would love to have this implemented into the game:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=38496

Managing lots of train stops becomes extremely annoying due to the following reasons:
1) lack of much intelligence in trains (such as that described by the above link like labeling trains, grouping train stops into stations, and sending trains to stations automatically going to their stop within the station based on the stop and the train's label)
2) small train GUI screens
3) train GUI screens are very limiting, no features to reorganize/move items, toggle things on and off, no copy paste of stops etc
4) hard to set up many similar trains and cargo wagon limits due to not being able to blueprint trains on tracks and place them with blueprints

I currently don't use trains because of the issues mentioned above. I love trains, I love the idea, what you can do with them, but even with blueprints due to the above limits, it becomes tedious (even with proper stop naming) to manage and configure even small to medium sized train networks. It becomes a repetitive chore the way it currently is, so much so that I stopped using trains a while ago hoping these issues would be addressed.

[factoriouzr]

I suggest two other related ideas to do with automated construction:
1) Add support for an upgrade planner like the upgrade planner mod into the base game and have it's settings saved or exportable with the player data such as the blueprint feature
2) make logistics request and auto trash slots upgradable forever (like the infinite research items) and make them be added to other tabs after a certain limit is reached or make the list scrollable. Also related to my other suggestion of merging auto trash and logistics requests into one slot.

Also what are your thoughts on my other suggestions for the game in the post you replied to?

yes to both but the logistic request slot should work like the auto trash slot. only show 1 empty slot at a time.
much cleaner that way.
The is shown in the bonus tab/table anyway (if it isn't it should be).

I'm personally fine with showing all slots or just one empty slot at a time since it takes up the same room on the screen regardless. So however they implement it, I just want the features

[Engimage]

Maybe something like concrete placement (area building) would be nicer for blueprints as opposed to per-item clicking?

[mophydeen]

Maybe something like concrete placement (area building) would be nicer for blueprints as opposed to per-item clicking?

anything that makes it faster.

I'm currently using my autodownload mod which adds alot of stuff also 50 starting construction robots. and a filled blueprintbook, updateplanner, blueprintstring, longreach

[kurtulmak]

For the idea about dragging your mouse over entities to build them, that's not bad, but I still think my suggestion of building everything within range is better. One big reason for this is that hovering your mouse over many small things (1x1) like power poles or inserters is extremely annoying, to the point that you can easily miss a few inserters or powerpoles thinking everything is built when it's not. With this solution, it's almost like building things manually. Just place the blueprint then manually fill in each entity. Granted it's better, but it feels almost as tedious.

For a quality of life solution that still keeps some of the "manual" nature of the early game, you can just make it so that when the cursor is near a construction ghost it becomes a tinted 5x5 grid that constructs anything inside the tinted zone when the mouse is clicked or held down (or whatever size - maybe it could even scale with a research). Rather than having to hit every 1x1 object directly with the mouse you get a decent "painting" zone. I can easily imagine painting a smelting line down while walking a couple of laps up and down it that way, for example, rather than it being a matter of carefully making sure each pole was being placed. Same for marked deconstructions.

[factoriouzr]

For the idea about dragging your mouse over entities to build them, that's not bad, but I still think my suggestion of building everything within range is better. One big reason for this is that hovering your mouse over many small things (1x1) like power poles or inserters is extremely annoying, to the point that you can easily miss a few inserters or powerpoles thinking everything is built when it's not. With this solution, it's almost like building things manually. Just place the blueprint then manually fill in each entity. Granted it's better, but it feels almost as tedious.

For a quality of life solution that still keeps some of the "manual" nature of the early game, you can just make it so that when the cursor is near a construction ghost it becomes a tinted 5x5 grid that constructs anything inside the tinted zone when the mouse is clicked or held down (or whatever size - maybe it could even scale with a research). Rather than having to hit every 1x1 object directly with the mouse you get a decent "painting" zone. I can easily imagine painting a smelting line down while walking a couple of laps up and down it that way, for example, rather than it being a matter of carefully making sure each pole was being placed. Same for marked deconstructions.

I'm just not sure why any of this is needed. You don't have to do this with a personal roboport or with regular robots from roboports. Why require it here?

If the criticism is that it takes the manual work out of the early game, then that shouldn't really be a concern. The whole game is about automation. Let's face it, this game is not an online competitive game. Let each player play how they like. Besides, you can choose to auto build or not by placing down blueprints or not. if you are a new player you won't have access to blueprints, you will build everything by hand so it's all manual. Once you have played 100 games and are tired of manually building your 200th smelting line, let us place the blueprint from the beginning and let it be filled in as long as the player stands close. If the concern is that new players can download the blueprints for complex builds and it robs them of the manual steps to build everything by hand, well they can do that now too with blueprint sharing mods. If the player wants to use blueprints and auto build other people's designs, that's fine too. Everybody enjoys the game differently.

All this goes back to player freedom. Let everyone play how they like. I can definitely see this as configurable option you can toggle on and off like in the config screen, but then it should apply universally and only for building things using the player's personal inventory. But then too, I can see it being annoying for many. You place down an outpost blueprint for example and are waiting for your personal bots to build it, but they aren't. Then you realize, you have to paint your entire blueprint. Seems like an extra unnecessary step to me.

Another good point to why it should be kept the same as both the roboport building and personal roboport building is for consistency. there are two automated construction methods right now and both work consistently. Introducing this one and making it inconsistent seems a bit strange to me. If you need to fill in/paint your own blueprints after you place them down, why don't you have to do that for the other two types of automated construction?

[kurtulmak]

All this goes back to player freedom. Let everyone play how they like.

It's part of the basic conceit of default Factorio that you start as just a person, with person-like limitations (like simulating having to laboriously chop down trees with simple tools). The stuff you research and invest in, like bots, blueprints, exoskeletons, effectively extends your capacity until at the end you're a little closer to having the incredible powers of... the typical simulation game starting UI. Without that progression you might as well just play in sandbox mode (which you're free to choose as a special, non-default mode).

However, there's an acute problem with how much of a pain it is to get to blueprints and the ability to build repetitive structures without a lot of tedium in a new game, so much of a pain it's not worth what it earns the game in thematic terms. You want something that patches up that problem without screwing up the pacing and staged feel of the game (stages as in: the stage of the game where you gain the ability to run trains, for example, is qualitatively different than before). I really like the idea of the nanobots mod (you get blueprints and a less powerful, somewhat expensive consumable form of construction robot not long after you get electrical generation going) but having the early game robots as consumables doesn't to be how the developers want to go. Earlier blueprints and short range, player-avatar-based construction painting seems like a natural compromise.

[British_Petroleum]

Will autofill ever be part of vanilla? Sorry if this has been answered before.

[British_Petroleum]

I'd like to see heaps more achievements. Achievements are really fun. Adding the extra game modes will allow for more types of achievements. I agree there should be a game mode for starting with a personal roboport + bots + blueprints. Something similar to the skip first hour mod would also be nice.

[British_Petroleum]

My biggest issue with this game is still the flashing no power icon. Super annoying

[vanatteveldt]

My biggest issue with this game is still the flashing no power icon. Super annoying

I would like to have some of your problems

[RocketManChronicles]

I like what you guys are doing with the game. I would, however, be careful with making the map view too powerful. I prefer the gameplay of having to walk to locations to "work" on the factory, rather than sit still and manage in god-mode. Don't give us too many ease-of-life capabilities. I will be playing the Death World for sure, as I find the normal (default) game rather easy and straight-forward. Giving me more "easier" things to manage my factory just takes away from the fun, imo.