Development and Discussion

[withers]

Making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

But that's what makes the end game so satisfying. You can do pretty much anything just because you're filthy-rich. By that point you've already put in 30+ hours where you were scraping for resources, seems only fair that at that point you should be allowed to go full lazymode about inserters/loaders if you can afford it.

Also, I had another thought: loaders are an optional convenience. You don't get them unless you install a mod to make them available. It seems wrong to change that and say "no, you can only have a few of them". If you do decide to put heavy restrictions on them, it should be toggleable in a config file.

My plan is to have them as a "native" in the logistics mod, but with the restriction that you need a certain component to build them, which can only be obtained (for now at least) by hunting and gathering resources from crystal rocks, the other restriction then is that you will get 1 (one) machine to turn them into the raws you need for processing them further, maybe even with a high cycle time (10 minutes+), so you have to come back from time to time to keep it running. That's the general idea, probably use this for most items that run of magic unrestricted power, or some kind of reactor.
I'll think about adding such an option.

Just a little random brainstorming here. I love the idea of there being certain items that are rare and can only be obtained by exploring and hunting for them. But it seems a little off to me that the special objects they are used to create would be loaders. What about solar panels? Solar panels are literally items that provide "magic unrestricted power".

[Light]

Taking away options from players by restricting it too much is not exactly appealing in any sense of the word no matter what it may be. Solar least of all, given how many hundreds you need just to power a tiny 20MW factory setup is already punishment enough.

The only thing I see wrong with loaders is that they're mainly just cheaper than a single filter inserter. Increased cost is not really a big thing to ask for given it's better throughput than two filter inserters, but adding a restricting element isn't exactly fun, it will just lead to most people outright ignoring it in favor of something better. Anyone using the uranium mod will agree that while Bob's ammo may be strong, the uranium ammo is cheaper and is far stronger so you're likely never using Bob's variants. I mean, why even bother making a setup if it's going to be that restrictive to use in comparison to something better? There are some instances of this in game where balance favors one option far more than another.

If a magic stone is required to make a green or purple top tier loader then maybe it could work out since it's not restricting the player from choosing the slower options; Or if there's another way to get rocks without having to hunt for the rare crystal mound far far away, which for someone like myself that had mined those up ages ago, so I'd just ignore loaders entirely if they're just going to be that cumbersome to make.

All of this is moot of course if the proper balance can be struck and loaders and inserters are both viable options. If cleaning through large amounts of stone can yield a crystal rock just the same as finding a mound, then it's not restricting players who have explored a lot already or choose to stay confined to their factory since leviathan biters absolutely wreck your shit when you try to leave. This would promote exploring for mounds for a high success at rocks, but also allow others to get it by other means if they so desire at a reduced rate of success.

Whatever keeps the options available and flexible enough to fit the various play styles of the players. That's why we use mods in the first place.

[withers]

Taking away options from players by restricting it too much is not exactly appealing in any sense of the word no matter what it may be. Solar least of all, given how many hundreds you need just to power a tiny 20MW factory setup is already punishment enough.

???
I have a factory going at around 30MW currently that is not using even one solar panel.

[Light]

Taking away options from players by restricting it too much is not exactly appealing in any sense of the word no matter what it may be. Solar least of all, given how many hundreds you need just to power a tiny 20MW factory setup is already punishment enough.

???
I have a factory going at around 30MW currently that is not using even one solar panel.

Power it with solar panels alone and you'll be counting some big numbers. Using solar to offset power demand really depends on how you play, but you're looking at around 600 panels to offset around 20MW off the grid. Larger factories trying to become clean could demand around 8,400 panels for 250MW. My friends factory which is using 700MW on average is managed by several nuclear reactors and over 10,000 solar panels.

Not exactly something you want to make a rarity given the vast numbers required just to offset a small amount of power.

[withers]

My point is you don't need solar panels at all. They are a luxury which allows you to stop chasing coal, and I'm not the only one who feels they are too OP. If you're going to have something in the game that is rare, like the crystals, seems logical to let them be used for something that is currently OP to begin with and sort of kill,two birds with one stone. Also, space is infinite, so regardless of how you play, there will always be more of what you need.

Loaders are a mere convenience that look cool. If you are missing rare materials for loaders, you could just use more inserters which are more of a pain in the neck to set up. It's sort of a non-mechanic. I'd rather be able to build infinite loaders, but perhaps only after reaching high tech, and have the rare thing be one that actually adds challenge and creates more interesting game play choices.

Just my 2-cents....

[NewSwiss]

\ What about solar panels? Solar panels are literally items that provide "magic unrestricted power".

Literally magic unrestricted power? What? They're SOLAR panels. They don't summon energy from Maxwell demons, they get it from the sun. The balance comes in their high cost (which should also include accumulators, which take oil for the batteries).

[Light]

My point is you don't need solar panels at all.

Correct. Which is why I don't see your point here since you're only reinforcing mine.

Solar is an optional choice and people have the right to use it if they prefer to use it over another. It makes little sense to discourage its use just because a couple people think it may be broken, nor should we be expected to punish them for playing how they want.

They are a luxury which allows you to stop chasing coal, and I'm not the only one who feels they are too OP. If you're going to have something in the game that is rare, like the crystals, seems logical to let them be used for something that is currently OP to begin with and sort of kill,two birds with one stone. Also, space is infinite, so regardless of how you play, there will always be more of what you need.

Not a chance.

Creating tens of thousands of solar panels requires millions of iron and copper ore, hundreds of thousands of lead and tin ore (solder) and raw wood. What else is used to make all of these? Coal for the electricity required for the assembly machines to create these intermediates in the first place. That's not including the accumulators that are mandatory to make use of the solar panels during night, with additional costs and the oil industry getting involved with mass numbers of pumpjacks required.

Solar comes with only the ONE advantage of no pollution at the cost of countless resources, tons of space, and rather sizable industry required to get everything mass produced. This is actually more demanding than a boiler setup ever could be.

It's easy to see something as OP when you don't build big and maybe a few panels is all you need, but when you start getting in the late game and start building a massive factory with hundreds of laser turrets manning every corner, the picture changes quite drastically. This is why in the vanilla game, it's easy to see solar as being OP as you realistically needed maybe 50MW tops unless you were building a mega factory. Bob's and Angel's scale the demand up a lot greater and so if boilers aren't your thing since it's polluting a lot, then solar will hurt your bank as you'll be building more than just 50MW to cover the costs. But at least it's your choice to do so.

Those who don't want solar or boilers could look at the nuclear mod for clean energy or wind energy if that's their thing. The point still stands that these are options we should be able to use as freely as we need to and that they remain an optional yet practical application where needed. If you feel solar or loaders are OP, simply don't use them yourself, that's your choice to make and I nor anyone else could tell you otherwise.

[withers]

Lol. Look guys I didn't mean to trigger anyone with my comments on solar panels. Just trying to brainstorm a bit and help out with this amazing mod!

There's plenty discussion already about solar panels being too OP in other threads. Like this one, for example.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18613&start=30

Also, lots of mods where people have increased costs, nerf solar panels, etc because they feel they are too overpowered.

That being said, I'm going to, as safely as I can, withdraw from this thread before people start throwing fruit at me....

[Light]

Lol. Look guys I didn't mean to trigger anyone with my comments on solar panels. Just trying to brainstorm a bit and help out with this amazing mod.
That being said, I'm going to, as safely as I can, withdraw from this thread before people start throwing fruit at me....

You made a statement, I made a counterargument to it, you replied to that, so I followed up even further. What else were you expecting?

There's plenty discussion already about solar panels being too OP in other threads. Like this one, for example.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=18613&start=30

Also, lots of mods where people have increased costs, nerf solar panels, etc because they feel they are too overpowered.

Again, that's vanilla balance and totally different. Re-read my statement below about the difference and you'll come to understand why this whole dispute even exists and why I disagree.

It's easy to see something as OP when you don't build big and maybe a few panels is all you need, but when you start getting in the late game and start building a massive factory with hundreds of laser turrets manning every corner, the picture changes quite drastically. This is why in the vanilla game, it's easy to see solar as being OP as you realistically needed maybe 50MW tops unless you were building a mega factory. Bob's and Angel's scale the demand up a lot greater and so if boilers aren't your thing since it's polluting a lot, then solar will hurt your bank as you'll be building more than just 50MW to cover the costs. But at least it's your choice to do so.

[jcranmer]

Making them more expensive is no real solution, because you will reach a point where you dont care anymore.

But that's what makes the end game so satisfying. You can do pretty much anything just because you're filthy-rich. By that point you've already put in 30+ hours where you were scraping for resources, seems only fair that at that point you should be allowed to go full lazymode about inserters/loaders if you can afford it.

Also, I had another thought: loaders are an optional convenience. You don't get them unless you install a mod to make them available. It seems wrong to change that and say "no, you can only have a few of them". If you do decide to put heavy restrictions on them, it should be toggleable in a config file.

My plan is to have them as a "native" in the logistics mod, but with the restriction that you need a certain component to build them, which can only be obtained (for now at least) by hunting and gathering resources from crystal rocks, the other restriction then is that you will get 1 (one) machine to turn them into the raws you need for processing them further, maybe even with a high cycle time (10 minutes+), so you have to come back from time to time to keep it running. That's the general idea, probably use this for most items that run of magic unrestricted power, or some kind of reactor.
I'll think about adding such an option.

Requiring ingredients that can't be automatically collected is extremely problematic--that's half the problem with alien artifacts. Loaders are too cheap already, I will admit. They really should require electric power (I'm aware that requires dev involvement). On top of that, it makes sense to make them about as expensive as a stack inserter or two--an express loader is basically the equivalent of 4 stack inserters. Using technology to keep people from getting it too early is helpful; if you really want to keep people from abusing it, make sure it has 5 material requirements and ban people from hand-crafting them: you can't use it until you get assembler-3s.

[hansson]

With regards to Loaders, I think it would be fine for them to have some kind of reactor as part of their recipe, and on top of that make their cost somewhat in line to 4 stack inserters or something. You can more or less, with bobs inserters, make "loaders" (that require a bit more space) by having multiple stack inserters unload onto underground belts and achieve the same compression (perhaps not with the fastest of non-vanilla belts - haven't tested). It's a reasonable progression to replace the stack inserters with a Loader for convenience, so it should be made available sometime after that in terms of tech. The progression seems clear to me, and the additional reagents (in form of a reactor) required due to lack of power requirement, compared to stack inserters, make sense.

[solntcev]

Is there any use for "alien goo" from Bio Processing mod?
Small allien artifacts can be turned into it, but I did not found any recipes with it.

[Nilaus]

My plan is to have them as a "native" in the logistics mod, but with the restriction that you need a certain component to build them, which can only be obtained (for now at least) by hunting and gathering resources from crystal rocks, the other restriction then is that you will get 1 (one) machine to turn them into the raws you need for processing them further, maybe even with a high cycle time (10 minutes+), so you have to come back from time to time to keep it running. That's the general idea, probably use this for most items that run of magic unrestricted power, or some kind of reactor.
I'll think about adding such an option.

Please do not add hunting/garthering restrictions. I hate the biter mechanics for all the hunting/gathering it forces.

YuokiTani has some of the "magical" components in his modpack. In some cases he uses extreme power consumption to mitigate it, which actually works (100MW), though that would be rather lame for Loaders.
I makes sense to use crystals, perhaps Crysal Sludge since that has quite limited use, which then directs the players to use that part instead of simple stockpiling them in ever increasing farms of Warehouses

[thomwblair]

First off, thank you for all your awesome development! Factorio is an awesome game and you have made a truly amazing contribution. I'm learning real science as I play/goof off! At the same time, though, the style of vanilla Factorio product descriptions is harder to comprehend with all the new awesome components you've introduced.

I was thinking some new explanation style would be very useful to new players. For example, here the products are not labeled as to what they are and what machines or entities they are used by:

Screen Shot 2017-03-09 at 11.01.10 AM.jpg (380.93 KiB) Viewed 7321 times

In my mind, as a player totally new to your mods, ideally each product would be named and shown what they are used by. It's very hard to identify products and also to figure out what the "Made In" or "Used In" machine is called so I can find it and make one. So, I think it would be most easy to understand if the icons had their names with them.

[Light]

First off, thank you for all your awesome development! Factorio is an awesome game and you have made a truly amazing contribution. I'm learning real science as I play/goof off! At the same time, though, the style of vanilla Factorio product descriptions is harder to comprehend with all the new awesome components you've introduced.

I was thinking some new explanation style would be very useful to new players. For example, here the products are not labeled as to what they are and what machines or entities they are used by:

Screen Shot 2017-03-09 at 11.01.10 AM.jpg

In my mind, as a player totally new to your mods, ideally each product would be named and shown what they are used by. It's very hard to identify products and also to figure out what the "Made In" or "Used In" machine is called so I can find it and make one. So, I think it would be most easy to understand if the icons had their names with them.

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/MrDoomah ... t-used-for

This does all you desire.

[Durabys]

First off, thank you for all your awesome development! Factorio is an awesome game and you have made a truly amazing contribution. I'm learning real science as I play/goof off! At the same time, though, the style of vanilla Factorio product descriptions is harder to comprehend with all the new awesome components you've introduced.

I was thinking some new explanation style would be very useful to new players. For example, here the products are not labeled as to what they are and what machines or entities they are used by:

Screen Shot 2017-03-09 at 11.01.10 AM.jpg

In my mind, as a player totally new to your mods, ideally each product would be named and shown what they are used by. It's very hard to identify products and also to figure out what the "Made In" or "Used In" machine is called so I can find it and make one. So, I think it would be most easy to understand if the icons had their names with them.

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/MrDoomah ... t-used-for

This does all you desire.

Sorry. But that is like scratching ones left ear with his or her right arm..over your head.

Couldn't you at least add the names of the things the recipe makes? Please.

[kinnom]

Couldn't you at least add the names of the things the recipe makes? Please.

Not really. Mods cannot edit the guis, so the only way would be to put the products in the recipe name.

[Durabys]

Couldn't you at least add the names of the things the recipe makes? Please.

Not really. Mods cannot edit the guis, so the only way would be to put the products in the recipe name.

I do not want to see dependencies or even where this product can be used. I just want to have the name of the product in its recipe to be present. Not just an icon.

[ukezi]

Couldn't you at least add the names of the things the recipe makes? Please.

Not really. Mods cannot edit the guis, so the only way would be to put the products in the recipe name.

I do not want to see dependencies or even where this product can be used. I just want to have the name of the product in its recipe to be present. Not just an icon.

at the moment it's a limitation of the game. If you have multiple products of a recipe you get icons only.

[Arch666Angel]

Couldn't you at least add the names of the things the recipe makes? Please.

Not really. Mods cannot edit the guis, so the only way would be to put the products in the recipe name.

I do not want to see dependencies or even where this product can be used. I just want to have the name of the product in its recipe to be present. Not just an icon.

I can only do what I did with Petrochem: Add the output items/fluids to the recipe name.