Development and Discussion

[Zyrconia]

I see shit-tons of plastic and rocket fuel @Zyrconia

Ironically, that is the output of 30+ hours of plastic making.

I removed a single pipe from my gas extractors and now my entire plastic and oil is offline. I'll see how much I can survive on that huge stockpile of synthesis gas and a sizeable chunk of naphtha.

[Arch666Angel]

After reading through the posts (thanks for writing all that stuff and ideas for smelting guys!) and having some thoughts about this myself it kinda came down again to the decision on how I want to go on with the mods overall, because smelting has to provide the metals that are/will be used in the components mod and all other successive ones.
It boils down to two ways:
-Make it simpler, follow on the same path as the plastic production works at the moment in Petrochem, which is better processes yield just more plastic instead of a completely new plastic type. Of course this would require to balance around this design choice, so early game something would require material equal to 2 iron plates, while endgame stuff will require material equal to 128 iron plates. The challenge is then in ramping up production and processes over time and handle logistics. This would still use the intermediates I did implement, but in the end use less different materials (than bobs) to produce all the stuff.
-The other thing and my original plan is to have more different metals and alloys which will have more specialized applications. So e.g. there would be different steel alloys (one per tech tier), which are used for structural parts, etc

---
Made some little brothers for the warehouses (the 2x2 chests in logistics)

[NewSwiss]

Any chance we can get a process for going from mineralized water to mineral sludge that doesn't require geodes? Heck, even something low-yield like 5 mineralized water boiled down to 1 slag. I used up most of my geodes, but I still have a LOT of mineralized water stored up. I mean I could void it, sure, but then I'd feel stupid for storing it up this whole time :p

It boils down to two ways:
-Make it simpler, follow on the same path as the plastic production works at the moment in Petrochem, which is better processes yield just more plastic instead of a completely new plastic type. Of course this would require to balance around this design choice, so early game something would require material equal to 2 iron plates, while endgame stuff will require material equal to 128 iron plates. The challenge is then in ramping up production and processes over time and handle logistics. This would still use the intermediates I did implement, but in the end use less different materials (than bobs) to produce all the stuff.
-The other thing and my original plan is to have more different metals and alloys which will have more specialized applications. So e.g. there would be different steel alloys (one per tech tier), which are used for structural parts, etc

I would advocate the former. With most of Bob's higher-tier materials (W, Ti, alloys, Si3N4, etc), it feels like a chore. Basically mandating that I set up a couple of machines getting bot-fed out of chests just so I can make some of the highest-tier machines/equipment. On the other hand, when I set up a more efficient process (a-la-Dytech metal casting), then it feels like a net gain, since it has broader applicability than to just those few high-tier items. And there will be more motivation to scale up high-tier processes, or to use them to completely replace lower-tier processes.

[Durabys]

After reading through the posts (thanks for writing all that stuff and ideas for smelting guys!) and having some thoughts about this myself it kinda came down again to the decision on how I want to go on with the mods overall, because smelting has to provide the metals that are/will be used in the components mod and all other successive ones.
It boils down to two ways:
-Make it simpler, follow on the same path as the plastic production works at the moment in Petrochem, which is better processes yield just more plastic instead of a completely new plastic type. Of course this would require to balance around this design choice, so early game something would require material equal to 2 iron plates, while endgame stuff will require material equal to 128 iron plates. The challenge is then in ramping up production and processes over time and handle logistics. This would still use the intermediates I did implement, but in the end use less different materials (than bobs) to produce all the stuff.
-The other thing and my original plan is to have more different metals and alloys which will have more specialized applications. So e.g. there would be different steel alloys (one per tech tier), which are used for structural parts, etc

---
Made some little brothers for the warehouses (the 2x2 chests in logistics)

The latter please..but add more logistics options that will permit someone to make a factory without bots. I am currently watching Arumba's Angel!Bob play-through..and he basically makes a spaghetti mess just to R&D speed race towards robots and then basically makes a belt-less factory just with bots.
Things like underground belts that can make 90 degree turns. Underground belts of the same color/type that you can place overlapping the same tiles but still be separate (currently you have to make this only with different type UG belts) Inserters with a 4-tile reach and changeable pick-up/place-down points. Single 1×1 belt balancer splitters. Belt-line side blocker (allows player to block the materials on the right or left side of a belt from moving forwards after it was placed). Things like that should allow one to make

Are those chests material-locked? Because that was one of Arumba's complains..that he basically used the Stirite silo to store coal and so one.

[aklesey1]

After reading through the posts (thanks for writing all that stuff and ideas for smelting guys!) and having some thoughts about this myself it kinda came down again to the decision on how I want to go on with the mods overall, because smelting has to provide the metals that are/will be used in the components mod and all other successive ones.
It boils down to two ways:
-Make it simpler, follow on the same path as the plastic production works at the moment in Petrochem, which is better processes yield just more plastic instead of a completely new plastic type. Of course this would require to balance around this design choice, so early game something would require material equal to 2 iron plates, while endgame stuff will require material equal to 128 iron plates. The challenge is then in ramping up production and processes over time and handle logistics. This would still use the intermediates I did implement, but in the end use less different materials (than bobs) to produce all the stuff.
-The other thing and my original plan is to have more different metals and alloys which will have more specialized applications. So e.g. there would be different steel alloys (one per tech tier), which are used for structural parts, etc

---
Made some little brothers for the warehouses (the 2x2 chests in logistics)

Will Angel's mods supports Сhrome and Nichrome from PYCP (py coal procesing)
How u looking to idea to give to assmblers, inserters, mining drills,pumpjacks turrets and another machines their own intermediate parts

Inserters:
1) Inserter frame
2) Inserter arm - with 2 parts
3) Inserter claw

Assembler:
1) Matter Input
2) Matter Output
3) Assembling arms
4) Assembler frame

Chemical plants and etc
1) Fluid input
2) Fluid output
3) Processing tank

Turrets
1) Turret frame
2) Turret brain
4) Turret rotator
5) Special part for turret specialization - bullet turret, flame turret, sniper turret, laser turret

I very like system for Roboports and robots, and i tested PYCP - some machines can be created from low-tier machines from vanilla machines and bob machines - electolyzer, fluid pump, storage tank or another very cool Like Dytech intermediate parts system is very pleasant and evident

How do u like idea to add sensors in game like:
1) Temperature sensor
2) Optical sensor
3) Pressure sensor
4) Light sensor
5) Item sensor
6) Energy level sensor

All of them can be used for combinator system

[NewSwiss]

-The other thing and my original plan is to have more different metals and alloys which will have more specialized applications. So e.g. there would be different steel alloys (one per tech tier), which are used for structural parts, etc

Just thought of another reason not to go this route: We'd need more inventory space and character logistics requester slots. By the time you're in late game bobs, you already need to be carrying around like 50 material types if you want to be able to pocket-craft anything. Some don't like pocketcrafting, but many others see it as a great convenience.

The latter please..but add more logistics options that will permit someone to make a factory without bots.

Can you explain why you want more materials? These seem like two different issues. Facilitating a "factory without robots" is a whole other can of worms. For the kind of throughput he will need to launch 1000+ rockets in a reasonable length of time, belts and pipes will lag the game too much. In other words, it's not just about adding utilities, but improving performance (not to mention fixing the fluid mechanics so pipes work reliably). You can make a factory without robots with what we have now, it's just large and inconvenient, and there would be belt and pipe everywhere.

[Light]

Personally I'd love to see more love for the materials already in the game, with rarely used items like tungsten, silver, zinc, nickel, etc. A small addition of materials probably isn't that big an issue, but aklesey1's concept of breaking things down into smaller components would be an absolute nightmare for a whole mess of reasons.

Racing R&D for bots is something I'm also guilty of lately. It's not exactly appealing to play it that way, but for convenience sake it's almost mandatory with what we have already. The adorable cargo bots get a lot of use from me until a proper setup is worked up, but by then it's just easier to use bots instead of belts.

What I really wanted to do with smelting was create a pipeline to transport molten metals to a destination in the factory where it could be turned into plates right where they were needed. Barrels of molten copper transported to a copper wire section where molten copper turned into plates then into copper wires for circuits. While this is already technically doable already, the number of casting machines required was too large and overshadowed the area in which I wanted to use them in the first place. If the smelting system were a lot faster, with the casting machine being exceptionally fast to create plates, this would technically eliminate the entire need for belts by having a pipeline option available to you if performance is suffering greatly. Molten metals would go only where they're needed to create plates, and more pipe-to-grounds would mean plenty of space to build in the center of the factory instead of the edges of a belt line.

It could be that I just enjoy pipes in general, but that's what I was hoping to do when smelting was first announced.

Here's a picture for those who like visuals:

What I was hoping to do with smelting

[aklesey1]

Personally I'd love to see more love for the materials already in the game, with rarely used items like tungsten, silver, zinc, nickel, etc. A small addition of materials probably isn't that big an issue, but aklesey1's concept of breaking things down into smaller components would be an absolute nightmare for a whole mess of reasons.

Whether you played with Dytech when Factorio was 0.12 and earlier? Dytech contained many intermediates and it wasn't so inconvenient as u thinking, I think what intermediate parts can much but we after all will be able to remain within reasonable, can your fears be vain
I just wan't some challenge, want to see some, want to see that what will be brought closer to reality, yes my factory will be really fat, but i don't care, however ensuring defense of perimeter will remain only a real problem
Just look at Petrochem and PetrochemPlus - these mods contains huge long chains, that's hard to learn for first several matches, yes, and its looks very realistic i like it

Arch666Angel has given to us early versions of construction and logistic bots, let's look at continuation of this ideas

[withers]

I prefer more complexity myself. A well designed rail network can defeat any amount of recipe complexity.

[Northgate]

In other words, it's not just about adding utilities, but improving performance (not to mention fixing the fluid mechanics so pipes work reliably). You can make a factory without robots with what we have now, it's just large and inconvenient, and there would be belt and pipe everywhere.

For this purpose I'd much rather have something like a cable car that offers medium range/medium capacity transportation with low FPS drops. Something along those lines but bigger:

After reading through the posts (thanks for writing all that stuff and ideas for smelting guys!) and having some thoughts about this myself it kinda came down again to the decision on how I want to go on with the mods overall, because smelting has to provide the metals that are/will be used in the components mod and all other successive ones.
It boils down to two ways:
-Make it simpler, follow on the same path as the plastic production works at the moment in Petrochem, which is better processes yield just more plastic instead of a completely new plastic type. Of course this would require to balance around this design choice, so early game something would require material equal to 2 iron plates, while endgame stuff will require material equal to 128 iron plates. The challenge is then in ramping up production and processes over time and handle logistics. This would still use the intermediates I did implement, but in the end use less different materials (than bobs) to produce all the stuff.
-The other thing and my original plan is to have more different metals and alloys which will have more specialized applications. So e.g. there would be different steel alloys (one per tech tier), which are used for structural parts, etc

---
Made some little brothers for the warehouses (the 2x2 chests in logistics)

I would prefer the first solution. I also think that would work quite well with the Marathon mod. More metals only make sense if there are enough reasonable uses for them.
The little warehouses are gorgeous. Exactly what what we needed to fill in the gaps. No more complicated serial-chest-buffering!

[Light]

Personally I'd love to see more love for the materials already in the game, with rarely used items like tungsten, silver, zinc, nickel, etc. A small addition of materials probably isn't that big an issue, but aklesey1's concept of breaking things down into smaller components would be an absolute nightmare for a whole mess of reasons.

Whether you played with Dytech when Factorio was 0.12 and earlier? Dytech contained many intermediates and it wasn't so inconvenient as u thinking, I think what intermediate parts can much but we after all will be able to remain within reasonable, can your fears be vain
I just wan't some challenge, want to see some, want to see that what will be brought closer to reality, yes my factory will be really fat, but i don't care, however ensuring defense of perimeter will remain only a real problem
Just look at Petrochem and PetrochemPlus - these mods contains huge long chains, that's hard to learn for first several matches, yes, and its looks very realistic i like it

Arch666Angel has given to us early versions of construction and logistic bots, let's look at continuation of this ideas

It seems you're also the type to confuse challenging complexity and unnecessary tedium.

The major point to adding a mod and its popularity usually revolves around adding necessary components to flesh out a neglected vanilla feature or improve upon the base design. So lets recap what Bob's and Angels does.

• Bob's Mods - Adds a tier system to base components and adds some intermediates for that higher tech. It may have added a few too many intermediate ores considering how underutilized some often are, but it adds just enough buildings and upgrades to keep things useful from early to late game.
• Angel's Ores - Changes the mining method to require crushing and purifying for raw ores rather than direct mining from 10+ different ore patches. The outcome is largely dictated by the players preference on how to handle this system but it's not too cumbersome to use to great advantage, plus it cuts down on mining outposts considerably.
• Angel's Petrochem - Adds a lot more layers to one of the most lackluster of vanilla features. This mod permits dozens of different setups to obtain the end product with unique combinations and designs. There's just enough to not be too cumbersome to figure out, but it does take a fair bit of time to get it down.

These three mods do their job nicely and thus are very popular. If you're suggesting we throw in more intermediates then it needs to be something worthwhile. Adding far more crap to manage isn't adding any challenge whatsoever, it's just becoming more of a mess to contend with and adding it just for the sake of doing so isn't a good reason.

Angel continues to add features that are useful or give a new spin on the vanilla system without overdoing it just for the sake of doing so. That is why I'd hate to see that kind of mindset taint these good mods by doing unnecessary things for sake of "complexity" when in reality it's more tedious.

This is why when myself and a friend played DyTech, things felt more bloated than was necessary and eventually we just got bored and quit. Bob's is better managed in my opinion and didn't feel so cumbersome to work with.
Angel's adds the layers to refining and petrochem that Bob's doesn't cover so that was also a welcome addition to the experience.

The new logistics mod certainly gets points for staying on track, and I also look forward to seeing many useful things added to it. Being able to create logistics earlier is certainly helpful to many, so there's little doubt it will also be a popular download among the others. Whatever happens to smelting, I hope it also becomes a mainstay in the games of others too.

[Zyrconia]

I agree with Light!

With more than 200 hours with various combos of Angel's and Bob's, I can tell you for sure that things don't need to be more complicated. They just need to be more balanced.

This are complicated enough that I had plenty of good working factories, but none I could call perfect yet. Maybe my latest "speedrun" factory will be perfect!

BTW, how fast do you guts move with full Angel's + Bob's?

How many hours until you have automated brown circuit? White circuit? Green? Blue? modules? Bots? Rockets?

I feel like only Angel's Refining can add 15+ hours to the play time of a particular factory.

[withers]

I love the new storage options. For crushed rock, what a about a simple rock pile? Costs 4 wood. 5x5 space. Just a big field that stores huge amounts of crushed rock. Btw is it possible to limit buildings to only store granular materials?

[Arch666Angel]

I love the new storage options. For crushed rock, what a about a simple rock pile? Costs 4 wood. 5x5 space. Just a big field that stores huge amounts of crushed rock. Btw is it possible to limit buildings to only store granular materials?

Sadly no you cant

[NewSwiss]

It seems you're also the type to confuse challenging complexity and unnecessary tedium.

Excellent post, well said. Though I'd like to add another benefit of angels and bobs, which is added realistic materials/chemistry relative to base factorio. There was something oddly satisfying about having to use the Bayer process for production of alumina before electrolyzing it to aluminum. Not that I'd want 100% realism, since that would add even more steps which likely wouldn't contribute to gameplay.

For this purpose I'd much rather have something like a cable car that offers medium range/medium capacity transportation with low FPS drops. Something along those lines but bigger:

Interesting. So like automated "trains" with inventory space that run inside the factory, rather than all the individual items on a belt.

How many hours until you have automated brown circuit? White circuit? Green? Blue? modules? Bots? Rockets?

It's hard to put numbers to these. With just Bobs, I think I normally have robots up by 20-ish hours, then have max-tier buildings and mid-tier modules by 35 hours. Though I tend to mess around, rather than playing for speed.

I feel like only Angel's Refining can add 15+ hours to the play time of a particular factory.

I'm not sure how much angels slowed me down. I'm still on my first playthrough (40 hours in) and I'm at the 32 hour equivalent that I would be with just bobs (so adds 25% game length?). Though I did brute-force petrochem by using a wood-->coal conversion mod, which basically gives you unlimited plastic with coal cracking. I still have all of my other petrochem products just going into tanks. Also, I started with a very large starter area, so I hardly had to deal with biters.

[Northgate]

Interesting. So like automated "trains" with inventory space that run inside the factory, rather than all the individual items on a belt.

Yeah basically like trains but you only have to put down the poles (2x2 like the big power poles) and connect them with something like steel rope and then it would move above the ground so you could have belts and cable car lines cross each other. You'd have to add stations where they move slower and while in the station inserters could basically grab items from them.

How many hours until you have automated brown circuit? White circuit? Green? Blue? modules? Bots? Rockets?

I have automated Dark Blue Science after ~2 days and 8 hours.

[aklesey1]

How to get many many many thermal water - i need it to get slag withput sulfuric waste water, the problem is that fields of thermal water meet very rarely

[Durabys]

After reading through the posts (thanks for writing all that stuff and ideas for smelting guys!) and having some thoughts about this myself it kinda came down again to the decision on how I want to go on with the mods overall, because smelting has to provide the metals that are/will be used in the components mod and all other successive ones.
It boils down to two ways:
-Make it simpler, follow on the same path as the plastic production works at the moment in Petrochem, which is better processes yield just more plastic instead of a completely new plastic type. Of course this would require to balance around this design choice, so early game something would require material equal to 2 iron plates, while endgame stuff will require material equal to 128 iron plates. The challenge is then in ramping up production and processes over time and handle logistics. This would still use the intermediates I did implement, but in the end use less different materials (than bobs) to produce all the stuff.
-The other thing and my original plan is to have more different metals and alloys which will have more specialized applications. So e.g. there would be different steel alloys (one per tech tier), which are used for structural parts, etc

---
Made some little brothers for the warehouses (the 2x2 chests in logistics)

So..

Are those chests/storage silo's material-locked? Because that was one of Arumba's complains..that he basically used the Stirite silo to store coal and so on.

[mexmer]

After reading through the posts (thanks for writing all that stuff and ideas for smelting guys!) and having some thoughts about this myself it kinda came down again to the decision on how I want to go on with the mods overall, because smelting has to provide the metals that are/will be used in the components mod and all other successive ones.
It boils down to two ways:
-Make it simpler, follow on the same path as the plastic production works at the moment in Petrochem, which is better processes yield just more plastic instead of a completely new plastic type. Of course this would require to balance around this design choice, so early game something would require material equal to 2 iron plates, while endgame stuff will require material equal to 128 iron plates. The challenge is then in ramping up production and processes over time and handle logistics. This would still use the intermediates I did implement, but in the end use less different materials (than bobs) to produce all the stuff.
-The other thing and my original plan is to have more different metals and alloys which will have more specialized applications. So e.g. there would be different steel alloys (one per tech tier), which are used for structural parts, etc

---
Made some little brothers for the warehouses (the 2x2 chests in logistics)

So..

Are those chests/storage silo's material-locked? Because that was one of Arumba's complains..that he basically used the Stirite silo to store coal and so on.

afaik they are just themed.
basegame doesn't support material filters on storage (which would be nice and i believe it was suggested already - but then filter inserters will be pointless), and if you would hang in script, that will check what you inserting, everytime you trying to insert something, your UPS will severely drop, might be even to unplayable state.

[Northgate]

Are those chests/storage silo's material-locked? Because that was one of Arumba's complains..that he basically used the Stirite silo to store coal and so on.

As far as I understood, those are just 2x2 chests (normal, active, passive, requester and storage)