Development and Discussion

[mexmer]

guys, what you describe is more issue of using bobs in combination with angels.
smelting, petrochem and others is made to be independent of bobs, so what you suggest is basically to rewrite all recipes to utilize bobs.
While this might be interesting, basically it will need from angel to make 2 sets of recipes, one, when bobs is detected, and one without bobs ... that's a lot of work, if you ask me

[kinnom]

guys, what you describe is more issue of using bobs in combination with angels.
smelting, petrochem and others is made to be independent of bobs, so what you suggest is basically to rewrite all recipes to utilize bobs.
While this might be interesting, basically it will need from angel to make 2 sets of recipes, one, when bobs is detected, and one without bobs ... that's a lot of work, if you ask me

no, not really. just run a "find-and-replace"

[mexmer]

guys, what you describe is more issue of using bobs in combination with angels.
smelting, petrochem and others is made to be independent of bobs, so what you suggest is basically to rewrite all recipes to utilize bobs.
While this might be interesting, basically it will need from angel to make 2 sets of recipes, one, when bobs is detected, and one without bobs ... that's a lot of work, if you ask me

no, not really. just run a "find-and-replace"

unfortunately it doesn't work that way. since it will need some balancing, so there will be 2 sets of recipes, and either is enabled first set (for non bobs) or second set (for bobs).

[Light]

Speaking of voiding, I've always felt the flare stack and clarifier needs a much higher pollution factor for that purpose. Since it's not always running and can be influenced with 2 speed modules, it wouldn't be too outrageous to have it at 9 PU (or a lot more) as I sort of doubt burning byproducts is that clean in reality either. It has always been funny to me how a pump can generate 5 times the amount of pollution just by moving water, yet burning fuels and evaporating waste waters is practically nothing.

I will disagree. Pollution for voiding should be dependent on what you are voiding. There should be no pollution for voiding hydrogen, oxygen, or non-waste water and the like, but high values for acid gas or petrochems and wastes.

I suspect that the building has to have a static pollution value or that would already be implemented.

Also I didn't find that the flare could be module enhanced. Even late game I had to deploy many many flare stacks.

I'm a bit mystified by this response.

The landfill mod will release a set value of 5 pollution for ANY single item, which can lead to thousands of PU per minute if byproducts are thrown out quite frequently due to not utilizing them in other areas or refining your design to reduce the amount. Despite this, you claimed the mod was quite balanced and fair for permitting you to dump endless amounts of stuff at the set cost of 5 PU per item instead of varied.

So why would increasing the pollution rate of flare stacks and clarifiers be taboo?

As someone who spent a lot of time creating lots of byproducts using less than ideal optimization, I felt compelled to improve my designs to vastly reduce byproducts moreso because storage units started to fill up and it was clear there was a better way (As you also seemed to do later on). If voiding materials had more of an incentive to optimize builds or find better ways to utilize byproducts by creating more pollution to balance out taking the easy route, I don't really see the problem here.

But let's say for sake of argument that voiding is mandatory for some design.
With two speed modules permitted per void, there's seldom a reason to have more than 1-2 for overflow as it burns through a ton of gas/water to begin with. Even with rather large production facilities it's not exactly turning the sky into ash having a few in use only when needed. It's a far cry from 14 boilers constantly running per line of steam engines in vanilla, that's for sure.

But now that your mods are up to date, you'll hopefully come to see where I'm coming from with this. Salination plants removed a lot of the voiding that was mandatory, I'll admit to that nightmare; However now that we have that and modules for voiding, it's not exactly game breaking to hike their downside a nice bit to compensate.

---

As for the topic of bob's modules / miners.

For the record, I also don't use green modules since like productivity, I also feel like they're a cheat item for turning what should be a very pollution and power heavy factory into something a couple trees and small solar array can handle. It's a personal restriction I happily adhere to as the compensation for using the OP mining drills and creating a true cloud of pollution that keeps the forests dry, the border protection ready for raids, and the nuclear reactors hungry for fuel rods to supply them. It' s unfortunate that a lot of balance with bobs has to be self imposed, which is why I try to use Angel's items whenever possible.

With that said, I look forward to any future rebalancing of Angel's content specifically and improving the factory even further with it.
Salination and full barrelling support being my absolute favorites right now, allowing me to vastly redesign and reduce the size of facilities, so thank you so much for that addition Angel.

[Demosthenex]

I'm a bit mystified by this response.

The landfill mod will release a set value of 5 pollution for ANY single item, which can lead to thousands of PU per minute if byproducts are thrown out quite frequently due to not utilizing them in other areas or refining your design to reduce the amount. Despite this, you claimed the mod was quite balanced and fair for permitting you to dump endless amounts of stuff at the set cost of 5 PU per item instead of varied.

So why would increasing the pollution rate of flare stacks and clarifiers be taboo?

We'll stop there. I agree with you. I think there should be high pollution for really nasty things (acid gas, sulfur dioxide, smoke, etc), but I was pointing out there should be zero or very little for hydrogen and oxygen. Thus variable pollution balanced toward realism.

To your other point byproducts should pollute if you void them. That would be neat if it were variable pollution too, but landfill was acceptable because it had a finite bandwidth and polluted. I'd did try to solve my processes to minimize byproducts and recycle but still felt overwhelmed.

Finally about the Bob's modules, I had to try it once. Now that I've done it, I have to try something else. Same thing with using wood as the basis for all plastic and rocket fuel. Having self control to meet a goal without using something OP is fine. Given I just started a Bob + Angel + Marathon run with No Hands Crafting, it'll be a while before I have to make those decisions.

[crysanja]

I would suggest to split thouse void buildings into two things.

One building processes gas/liquides into a polution gass/liquid/unit.
Here you can balace the stuff being voided.

The second building uses the polution unit and produces polution.
This building would have a very fast crafting speed.




---

On another matter, there is only one(?) direct way to produce carbon dioxide. I would like to see a way without coal, close to my refineries.

[Zyrconia]

Wasn't Calcium Chloride made in the past from stone, not from crushed stone, or am I going crazy?

[kinnom]

Wasn't Calcium Chloride made in the past from stone, not from crushed stone, or am I going crazy?

in bob's mods, calcium chloride is made from stone

[Arch666Angel]

Wasn't Calcium Chloride made in the past from stone, not from crushed stone, or am I going crazy?

There are two recipes: One in the bobs tab with stone and one in the petrochem tab with crushed stone

---

What going on: I'm currently working on what I have in mind for technology overhaul, building components and new items to use. But I ran into an issue with the way I used to setup the mods and that I used the dependencies backwards, that is now coming back to bite me in the ***. This is specially the case with refining since it's more or less the core of all the mods, it used to be that refining had dependecies on mods (bob, yuoki, UP, NUC) so they load prior to refining and then the mod would load items, entities and recipes according to the configuration of mods present, this would all happen in the first data step. The problem now is that mods higher up in the chain couldnt set dependency on refining sice it was almost loaded last in the data step.
I'm currently doing a rewrite of how the refining mod works internally, so it will load up evertyhing (items, entities, technologies, recipes,...) in the first data step and only to modifications to whats loaded in the second data phase and make everything work according to the mod configuration. This is more or less the way bobbingabout also does it with his mods and it all the other mods, because 1. it wont error out if something is missing 2. you can just assume that things are loaded if a dependency is met.
Since I'm on it, I will also do some changes:
-nerf yellow waste water output a bit (half)
-make the processing chain for gems a bit shorter
-nerf the amount of geodes from floatation (half)

[aklesey1]

These cylinders with inserts of color are new science packs? Right? So many sci-fi design looks cool

[Northgate]

I assume those buildings you've posted are science labs? It scares the shit out of the that there are 7 of them, but I really like it.

[mexmer]

they still look more like airvents than science labs to me. even with those addons. overall nice tho'

[Arch666Angel]

These cylinders with inserts of color are new science packs? Right? So many sci-fi design looks cool

Thanks and you are right they are.

I assume those buildings you've posted are science labs? It scares the shit out of the that there are 7 of them, but I really like it.

The science split in 0.15 is not going far enough for my taste, technologies are tiered in 5 phases and split into 6 categories (processing, logistic, warfare, enhancement, exploration, energy)


---
If anyone wants to be a lab rat, here are pre-release versions of refining and petrochem, I appreciate feedback and bug reports
https://github.com/Arch666Angel/angelsr ... _0.6.0.zip
https://github.com/Arch666Angel/angelsp ... _0.4.0.zip

[Light]

A quick glance and three bugs stood out.
- Flotation cells only create Saphirite, Stiratite, and Bobmonium chunks.
- Mineral sludge can't make ores anymore
- Bob's ores started spawning outside the starting area.

Other than that, the reduction of the gem chain and permitting creation of a specific gem is quite nice.

Considering the science overhaul you've got planned, it's probably time to consider building up a new factory.
But one question I do have is are your trains going to be comparable to Bob's Mk3? or any non-fuel transport planned?

[Arch666Angel]

A quick glance and three bugs stood out.
- Flotation cells only create Saphirite, Stiratite, and Bobmonium chunks.
- Mineral sludge can't make ores anymore
- Bob's ores started spawning outside the starting area.

Other than that, the reduction of the gem chain and permitting creation of a specific gem is quite nice.

Considering the science overhaul you've got planned, it's probably time to consider building up a new factory.
But one question I do have is are your trains going to be comparable to Bob's Mk3? or any non-fuel transport planned?

Thanks for the report
-fixed the floatation recipes
-cant confirm that, the sludge recipes are there and working
-yeah needs an update to infiniteores

Wasnt happy with the gem process and I probably need the two rows that are now free for something else

The trains will be balanced against vanilla, so in comparison to bobs they will probably be underpowered, but they will have equipment grids as a default.

[steinio]

Wow Angel's goes Yuoki

Do you give your migration scripts some love after finishing the update or should we start anew?

Greetings steinio

[Light]

The disappearing mineral sludge recipes is a migration issue.
Speaking of that, still waiting on the dirt water migration from many months back. Seems the migrations could do with some love for this next update.

As for the rows. It would be very nice to see mineral sludge create ores individually so a slag processing area could make up for the lacking ore without overfilling chests with the secondary ore you don't need.

[Arch666Angel]

Wow Angel's goes Yuoki

Do you give your migration scripts some love after finishing the update or should we start anew?

Greetings steinio

I'll try my best but as you all know I'm pretty sloppy at that

The disappearing mineral sludge recipes is a migration issue.
Speaking of that, still waiting on the dirt water migration from many months back. Seems the migrations could do with some love for this next update.

As for the rows. It would be very nice to see mineral sludge create ores individually so a slag processing area could make up for the lacking ore without overfilling chests with the secondary ore you don't need.

Hmm an idea would be to have another catalyst from crystal seedlings and use that for single ore recipes.

[Airat9000]

These cylinders with inserts of color are new science packs? Right? So many sci-fi design looks cool

Thanks and you are right they are.

I assume those buildings you've posted are science labs? It scares the shit out of the that there are 7 of them, but I really like it.

The science split in 0.15 is not going far enough for my taste, technologies are tiered in 5 phases and split into 6 categories (processing, logistic, warfare, enhancement, exploration, energy)


---
If anyone wants to be a lab rat, here are pre-release versions of refining and petrochem, I appreciate feedback and bug reports
https://github.com/Arch666Angel/angelsr ... _0.6.0.zip
https://github.com/Arch666Angel/angelsp ... _0.4.0.zip

mods in bug

Code: Select all

require("utils")
require("config")
require("prototypes.entities")
require("prototypes.items")
require("prototypes.technologies")
require("prototypes.recipes")
require("prototypes.dynamites")

Code: Select all

{
				type = "item",
				name = dyna_name,
				localised_name = localised_name_item,
				icon = dyna_icon,
				-- tint = colors.blue,
				flags = {"goes-to-quickbar"},
				subgroup = subgroup_name,
				order = "a-" .. string.char( string.byte("a") + n_order ),
				place_result = dyna_name,
				stack_size = 100
			},
		}
	)
	table.insert( data.raw["technology"][techno_name].effects,
		{
			type = "unlock-recipe",
			recipe = dyna_name,
		}
	)
	n_order = n_order + 1

[Light]

Wow Angel's goes Yuoki

Do you give your migration scripts some love after finishing the update or should we start anew?

Greetings steinio

I'll try my best but as you all know I'm pretty sloppy at that

The disappearing mineral sludge recipes is a migration issue.
Speaking of that, still waiting on the dirt water migration from many months back. Seems the migrations could do with some love for this next update.

As for the rows. It would be very nice to see mineral sludge create ores individually so a slag processing area could make up for the lacking ore without overfilling chests with the secondary ore you don't need.

Hmm an idea would be to have another catalyst from crystal seedlings and use that for single ore recipes.

I like that idea a lot. Especially considering one of my earlier complaints was how we reach a point where gems become obsolete (Bob's recipes create too much from a single gem ore) and seedlings need to be burned into slurry to keep wastes low.

Also I like the geode nerf and that it uses different colors for different results. Although could you change Bob's gem recipe to turn 1 ore into just 1 raw? The x4 raw gem pseudo productivity recipe kind of undermines seedling a bit too much in my opinion, even with the geode nerf.