Development and Discussion

[parjanya]

I’m playing for the first time with Bob’s mods and Angel’s mods, and I have two kinds of oxygen and other gasses, one for each family of mods. I’ve updated everything. What should I do?

Code: Select all

bobassembly_0.14.0
bobconfig_0.14.0
bobelectronics_0.14.0
bobelectronics_gfxtweak_0.14.0
bobenemies_0.14.0.zip
bobgreenhouse_0.14.0
bobinserters_0.14.3.zip
boblibrary_0.14.3
boblogistics_0.14.5
bobmining_0.14.0
bobmodules_0.14.2.zip
bobores_0.14.0
bobplates_0.14.0
bobpower_0.14.0
bobrevamp_0.14.2.zip
bobsangelthon_0.1.11
bobtech_0.14.0
bobvehicleequipment_0.14.2
bobwarfare_0.14.2
angelsaddons-oresilos_0.2.2
angelsaddons-pressuretanks_0.1.1
angelsaddons-warehouses_0.1.3
angelsbioprocessing_0.2.1.zip
angelsinfiniteores_0.4.5
angelspetrochem_0.3.4.zip
angelsrefining_0.5.5.zip
angelssmelting_0.1.3.zip
angelstrigger-refining-enablefurnace_0.1.2
angelstrigger-refining-enableproductivity_0.1.1

[kingarthur]

you shouldn't have different gasses as angels mods should have converted everything to his mods type of gasses. and if not there is a converter valve/pump for switching between the two as needed

[Arch666Angel]

Infinite Ores
---0.4.6
-added auto detection for RSO
-fixed spawning of infinite ores for non RSO variants

[Demosthenex]

I just finished a Bob and Angel's map to 1 RPM, and had some feedback. From the post at: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39876

Angel's cobalt processing

We initially setup our systems to create cobalt plates using Angel's
Smelting. Unfortunately most of the recipes required cobalt oxide, and
we discovered you could not grind the plates to oxide. I think adding
a chemical factory recipe for cobalt plates + oxygen to create cobalt
oxide would have been a great idea. That or maybe the cobalt ingots or
pellets. I hope that Angel fixes this soon.

The chlorine bottleneck and overwhelming purified water

For rocket fuel we needed so much chlorine! Unfortunately the only
method to obtain it is to electrolyze saline water, and that's only
available as a byproduct (2 for 10!!!) when purifying water.

As a result we had massive amounts of purified water to dispose of. At
one point our logistics system had 65k barrels of purified water in
it. We eventually made chlorine factories which split the purified
water into oxygen and hydrogen and vented them because it was faster
than clarifiers. We also considered outputting purified water barrels
into trash landfills despite the pollution it would cause.

Bob's originally had a method to use a chemical furnace to create salt
from water, and then you could make salt water. I think this should be
re-introduced as Angel's removes the salt recipe.

Are there plans to address cobalt oxide, or re-enable the Bob's salt? I understand that maybe you have a plan for chlorine that doesn't include the Bob's salt cycle, but I don't think that our creating 5x the pure water and then venting it as gas was the goal either.

[Light]

It was interesting to read your concerns and encountered issues.

I'll address a couple that caught my eye in particular.

1. Saline water can be produced en masse thanks to the salination plant which creates 40 saline per 100 water. This also removes any issue with keeping on top of sodium hydroxide which people mentioned previously. Converting saline into salt for chlorine removes the hydrogen byproduct so you can create 5 chlorine and 1 hydrox at a rapid pace. This is the method I currently use for my setups.

2. Uranium is being rebalanced for Angels after a few of us also expressed concerns over balancing a long while back. Mineral sludge will now create ores at a very rare 0.05% chance, while the 6 ores from refining will be reduced down to 1. The mod developers intention was always meant to make the ores rare and for players to have to work on keeping fuel maintained as long as possible due to this. So creation of a fuel recycling area will be more mandatory in future games, but Angel's still makes this process nearly painless due to the ease of making base gasses of oxygen, nitrogen, and hydrogen.

---

That said, the smelting problem has been mentioned a few times and I agree it has flaws. Many of bobs technology is beyond overpowered, especially when combined with certain mods like infinite ores. Bob's modules just make it even more laughably easy to essentially live off just a few ores per second, especially with how broken production modules are.

I've personally set a challenge to just use Angel's as much as possible, but the scale of buildings required for smelting is incredible. It's a good 4-5 times larger than the ore processing itself just to keep up!

As for wood production, I personally use the bio industries mod, but now you've got me curious to investigate how it compares to Bob's greenhouse to see if I need to worry about balancing issues with bio. It's amazing to create wood and turn it into plastic, but 65k wood per minute with bobs? Good lord. (They must allow productivity modules don't they? Fortunately, bio does not.)

I am curious to know if you had issues with tungsten as well. Cobalt oxide is used in many things, but has copper-tungsten or oxides been something of a problem too? I'm not at your scale of factory yet, so I've gotten away with a tiny setup for it for now.

I'll also be adding the landfill mod to my game, mostly due to mass production of saline water creating too much hydroxide now, so thanks for the mod list.

[ukezi]

@Angel can you make an underflow valve? It should close if it is more than ~80% full. So the opposite of the overflow valve. the management of purified water out of waste water and out of a pump is a pain in the ass previous to circuits.

[Demosthenex]

It was interesting to read your concerns and encountered issues.

Wish you'd replied on our post, I didn't see this because I didn't know you were replying to me initially. ;]

I'll address a couple that caught my eye in particular.

1. Saline water can be produced en masse thanks to the salination plant which creates 40 saline per 100 water. This also removes any issue with keeping on top of sodium hydroxide which people mentioned previously. Converting saline into salt for chlorine removes the hydrogen byproduct so you can create 5 chlorine and 1 hydrox at a rapid pace. This is the method I currently use for my setups.

We hadn't updated since starting in October, so I expect there are updates. I'm really excited to hear that there is a salination plant now! We just started a new map with all updated Bob + Angel and added Marathon, so I look forward to seeing it!

2. Uranium is being rebalanced for Angels after a few of us also expressed concerns over balancing a long while back. Mineral sludge will now create ores at a very rare 0.05% chance, while the 6 ores from refining will be reduced down to 1. The mod developers intention was always meant to make the ores rare and for players to have to work on keeping fuel maintained as long as possible due to this. So creation of a fuel recycling area will be more mandatory in future games, but Angel's still makes this process nearly painless due to the ease of making base gasses of oxygen, nitrogen, and hydrogen.

I spoke to Fatmice (the maker of Uranium Power) about Slag and Uranium, and he nerfed it. We just hadn't updated.

That said, the smelting problem has been mentioned a few times and I agree it has flaws. Many of bobs technology is beyond overpowered, especially when combined with certain mods like infinite ores. Bob's modules just make it even more laughably easy to essentially live off just a few ores per second, especially with how broken production modules are.

This is the first time I'd gone to level 8 modules with Bob's and I agree, they are incredible! I think for the investment though that they aren't OP, just a good return on an expensive item. They helped us scale late in a base already suffering from UPS issues. We were already running that game at 50% speed out of combat, and in combat at 20% speed. I found the trigger mod for Angel's to allow productivity, and I may try that late on this next run.

As for wood production, I personally use the bio industries mod, but now you've got me curious to investigate how it compares to Bob's greenhouse to see if I need to worry about balancing issues with bio. It's amazing to create wood and turn it into plastic, but 65k wood per minute with bobs? Good lord. (They must allow productivity modules don't they? Fortunately, bio does not.)

We thought it was an insane amount of wood as well. Wood really did completely replace oil for all plastic and rocket fuel. We made lubricant and oil byproducts from cracking coal, and so did very little with oil during that game. This next game I've set a goal to use oil for plastic, not wood.

You can see our tree farm here: http://demosthenes.org/tmp/BobAngelOneR ... 12,12.89,7

Bob's greenhouses have no slots for modules, but can be influenced by them. We had +4000% speed on them. There was so much wood purple belts couldn't manage the output.

I am curious to know if you had issues with tungsten as well. Cobalt oxide is used in many things, but has copper-tungsten or oxides been something of a problem too? I'm not at your scale of factory yet, so I've gotten away with a tiny setup for it for now.

I'll also be adding the landfill mod to my game, mostly due to mass production of saline water creating too much hydroxide now, so thanks for the mod list.

I'm not aware of any tungsten issues. We only used a bit for advanced machines. Shame it wasn't required in the rocket.

Trash Landfill was a real life saver. We were drowning in ore (yes, we landfilled 100k+ of each ore) because the output wasn't balanced (ie: we had ot toss tungsten to make more tin). We looked at Rseding's Compression Chests which is powered and has infinite capacity (and MP performance friendly), but I found it unrealistic. The landfill takes time to cause item decay, emits pollution for each item removed, and has cute graphics. I felt it was more realistic and balanced. I'd recommend it!

[Light]

It was interesting to read your concerns and encountered issues.

Wish you'd replied on our post, I didn't see this because I didn't know you were replying to me initially. ;]

Sorry, that was the intent but I had posted in the wrong thread.

That said, the smelting problem has been mentioned a few times and I agree it has flaws. Many of bobs technology is beyond overpowered, especially when combined with certain mods like infinite ores. Bob's modules just make it even more laughably easy to essentially live off just a few ores per second, especially with how broken production modules are.

This is the first time I'd gone to level 8 modules with Bob's and I agree, they are incredible! I think for the investment though that they aren't OP, just a good return on an expensive item. They helped us scale late in a base already suffering from UPS issues. We were already running that game at 50% speed out of combat, and in combat at 20% speed. I found the trigger mod for Angel's to allow productivity, and I may try that late on this next run.

I'd disagree with the modules being all that expensive for the benefits it gives, but that's mainly due to productivity modules that can make items very cheap by mass creating items sometimes 2-3 times before the original creation is done. It's fair to say that I have removed productivity modules since it feels like cheating. Speed modules are fine though, especially given the scale you need to build at times.

As for wood production, I personally use the bio industries mod, but now you've got me curious to investigate how it compares to Bob's greenhouse to see if I need to worry about balancing issues with bio. It's amazing to create wood and turn it into plastic, but 65k wood per minute with bobs? Good lord. (They must allow productivity modules don't they? Fortunately, bio does not.)

We thought it was an insane amount of wood as well. Wood really did completely replace oil for all plastic and rocket fuel. We made lubricant and oil byproducts from cracking coal, and so did very little with oil during that game. This next game I've set a goal to use oil for plastic, not wood.

You can see our tree farm here: http://demosthenes.org/tmp/BobAngelOneR ... 12,12.89,7

Bob's greenhouses have no slots for modules, but can be influenced by them. We had +4000% speed on them. There was so much wood purple belts couldn't manage the output.

I guess it's fortunate that bio is larger than its area, which would make module production expensive.



I've been thinking of a design to scale up my current production, but my use of wood is as a secondary backup to oil produced plastics. Angel's petrochem is too much fun to ignore in favor of wood, plus I wouldn't want to undermine the effort that went into it.

I am curious to know if you had issues with tungsten as well. Cobalt oxide is used in many things, but has copper-tungsten or oxides been something of a problem too? I'm not at your scale of factory yet, so I've gotten away with a tiny setup for it for now.

I'll also be adding the landfill mod to my game, mostly due to mass production of saline water creating too much hydroxide now, so thanks for the mod list.

I'm not aware of any tungsten issues. We only used a bit for advanced machines. Shame it wasn't required in the rocket.

Trash Landfill was a real life saver. We were drowning in ore (yes, we landfilled 100k+ of each ore) because the output wasn't balanced (ie: we had ot toss tungsten to make more tin). We looked at Rseding's Compression Chests which is powered and has infinite capacity (and MP performance friendly), but I found it unrealistic. The landfill takes time to cause item decay, emits pollution for each item removed, and has cute graphics. I felt it was more realistic and balanced. I'd recommend it!

I love it so far. Since there was a large stock, there was a good 4.3 million PU of items discarded, clouding the map a nice bit. But voiding products should always have a downside for taking the easy way out.

Speaking of voiding, I've always felt the flare stack and clarifier needs a much higher pollution factor for that purpose. Since it's not always running and can be influenced with 2 speed modules, it wouldn't be too outrageous to have it at 9 PU (or a lot more) as I sort of doubt burning byproducts is that clean in reality either. It has always been funny to me how a pump can generate 5 times the amount of pollution just by moving water, yet burning fuels and evaporating waste waters is practically nothing.

Might be something Angel can look into rebalancing at some point.

[Demosthenex]

Speaking of voiding, I've always felt the flare stack and clarifier needs a much higher pollution factor for that purpose. Since it's not always running and can be influenced with 2 speed modules, it wouldn't be too outrageous to have it at 9 PU (or a lot more) as I sort of doubt burning byproducts is that clean in reality either. It has always been funny to me how a pump can generate 5 times the amount of pollution just by moving water, yet burning fuels and evaporating waste waters is practically nothing.

I will disagree. Pollution for voiding should be dependent on what you are voiding. There should be no pollution for voiding hydrogen, oxygen, or non-waste water and the like, but high values for acid gas or petrochems and wastes.

I suspect that the building has to have a static pollution value or that would already be implemented.

Also I didn't find that the flare could be module enhanced. Even late game I had to deploy many many flare stacks.

[Mithaldu]

Infinite Ores
---0.4.6
-added auto detection for RSO
-fixed spawning of infinite ores for non RSO variants

Can you please add something to the description of infinite ores that explains that you mean "infinite and declining" or "infinite like oil patches"? I went looking for a mod that does that, but due to the description of Infinite Ores being so vague and entirely without details, i skipped over it, went to ask IRC only to be told that even if it doesn't say so, Infinite Ores is what i wanted. Having the description clearly state one of the above would be very helpful to newbies to actually figure out what IO actually does without having to read the code or ask others.

[Arch666Angel]

You should be able to produce ores on a need basis if you design your ore refinery carefully, there is no real need for a void entity for the ores or solids. With fluids it's a bit different and intended because some products are coupled with each other (purified water, waste water, water byproducts), same goes for the chemicals because there is no way to balance production chains on my side because there are so many possibilities to set them up.
That said: even with petrochem it is theoretically possible to set up production chains that wont waste byproducts but convert them to more useful products (methanol *hint* *hint*).

The game doesnt allow for dynamically generated pollution based on the input, the way around would be to have run times set differently for each input, because pollution is also based on run time of the recipe, but I doubt that the work that would go into this be of any benefit for the playing experience. I was rather considering increasing pollution for most of the higher machines in my mods.

On the topic of late game balance: yes I'm aware that highest bob mining drills and modules will destroy any balance if there ever was any for good and there is not much you can do about it, except restricting yourself from using highest tiers. I really hate the idea of productivity and with 0.15 they are introducing a global productivity for mining, which is even worse: Factorio is about puzzling and making decision, but where is the fun in "oh I just put productivity modules EVERYWHERE", why not put a restriction on the number of modules you can have, through making the resources you need for them more rare or some kind of mini game you can try every hour or something, so you actually have to make a decision where to put your modules, because you just have a handful at and not millions. [/end rant]

[Demosthenex]

You should be able to produce ores on a need basis if you design your ore refinery carefully, there is no real need for a void entity for the ores or solids.

I agree. We initially setup a large refining operation which sorted each ore and were overwhelmed by byproducts. We didn't switch to targeted ore creation until late game. That's why we had a trash can.

With fluids it's a bit different and intended because some products are coupled with each other (purified water, waste water, water byproducts), same goes for the chemicals because there is no way to balance production chains on my side because there are so many possibilities to set them up.
That said: even with petrochem it is theoretically possible to set up production chains that wont waste byproducts but convert them to more useful products (methanol *hint* *hint*).

I did make loops with residual gas, I thought that was really cool! I guess the version we were on didn't yet have the salination plant, as pure water was the only real thing we had to dispose of in quantity. Making it into gas (H + O) was the fastest non-cheat (ie: engine) way to dispose of it.

On the topic of late game balance: yes I'm aware that highest bob mining drills and modules will destroy any balance if there ever was any for good and there is not much you can do about it, except restricting yourself from using highest tiers. I really hate the idea of productivity ...

I understand. Balance is always hard. Having done it once, I have to go a new way next time. I prefer horizontal scaling to vertical, but there was no denying the utility of vertical scaling with Bob's mods.

I still thoroughly enjoyed our play through with your mods. I just started a new map with Bob's mods and yours, plus marathon. I look forward to drowning in copper.

[ARADPLAUG]

Hey all, I'm a noob to the mod, and need a bit of help. I'm currently trying to set blue science packs up and need some calcium chloride for the silicon plates. Calcium chloride requires hydrogen chloride gas, requires chlorine, requires saline water... which requires blue science packs. I can't find any other way to get chlorine. How do I get around this?

[kinnom]

Hey all, I'm a noob to the mod, and need a bit of help. I'm currently trying to set blue science packs up and need some calcium chloride for the silicon plates. Calcium chloride requires hydrogen chloride gas, requires chlorine, requires saline water... which requires blue science packs. I can't find any other way to get chlorine. How do I get around this?

saline water is a byproduct from purified water

[ARADPLAUG]

Hey all, I'm a noob to the mod, and need a bit of help. I'm currently trying to set blue science packs up and need some calcium chloride for the silicon plates. Calcium chloride requires hydrogen chloride gas, requires chlorine, requires saline water... which requires blue science packs. I can't find any other way to get chlorine. How do I get around this?

saline water is a byproduct from purified water

Thanks! Guess I missed that. It might be better for noobs like me to notice if it were in the name, something like gas/oil separation has.

[kinnom]

Hey all, I'm a noob to the mod, and need a bit of help. I'm currently trying to set blue science packs up and need some calcium chloride for the silicon plates. Calcium chloride requires hydrogen chloride gas, requires chlorine, requires saline water... which requires blue science packs. I can't find any other way to get chlorine. How do I get around this?

saline water is a byproduct from purified water

Thanks! Guess I missed that. It might be better for noobs like me to notice if it were in the name, something like gas/oil separation has.

Don't forget to turn on advanced information (with the alt key)

[hoho]

I really hate the idea of productivity and with 0.15 they are introducing a global productivity for mining, which is even worse

I wouldn't worry about mining production research stuff all that much. If the stuff shown in FFF is to go by, it's quite similar to the research speed research that it becomes net loss after a couple of levels.

Though overall, I also avoid using production modules, even the lower level ones. They sure are tempting and possibly must-have for megabases to reduce lag but I try to avoid them as much as possible as I feel it's sort of like cheating.

[Mella]

Arch666Angel whether you will develop ur smelting mod? Any new about this mod? When we can create alloys with ur machines?

[crysanja]

Sorry, i have to complain a little about the smelting mod.
Smelting any typ of ore from full belt to full plate belt uses very huge amounts of space.
It would be realy nice to increase the crafting speed of some of the machines involved faster.


Maybe a bug, but your Blastfurnces mk1 needs steel and the mk2 aluminium, mk3 aluminium again.
All other buildings of the smelting mod need iron for mk1 and steel for mk2, followed by aluminium for mk3.

BTW the melting point of aluminium is much lower then iron/steel. In the smelting mod it makes little sence to use aluminium for more advanced machines.

[aklesey1]

Sorry, i have to complain a little about the smelting mod.
Smelting any typ of ore from full belt to full plate belt uses very huge amounts of space.
It would be realy nice to increase the crafting speed of some of the machines involved faster.


Maybe a bug, but your Blastfurnces mk1 needs steel and the mk2 aluminium, mk3 aluminium again.
All other buildings of the smelting mod need iron for mk1 and steel for mk2, followed by aluminium for mk3.

BTW the melting point of aluminium is much lower then iron/steel. In the smelting mod it makes little sence to use aluminium for more advanced machines.

Agree with u, why we don't need invar or nitinol for high tiers? I don't know where to use my big amounts of nickel