Wiki: Current prios

[ssilk]

In the last 2 days some new members are added to the wiki. Nice.

"Kupferdrache" (I don't know his username in this forum) added some words on
https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... network/de

Because I really hate discussing in a wiki, I move now this into the forum.

I quote him:

It is hard to understand for me why so hard to setup a wiki inital, that the wiki is multi language capable.
Of course you are right. When this pages are created here sub-pages and suitable linking are better. Never the less, all templates which contain readable text will be required double.
If we do so, we have to ask ourself: Why is a link to german wiki on main page?
even categories have to created double and linked properly, that could lead to confusion under english speaking users.
any Ideas to solve this (maybe we should beginn by filling the help pages ) --Kupferdrache (talk) 09:27, 23 April 2014 (CEST)

Well. There are several problems.

1. The correct way to link to the different languages

The links on the current main-page are the old links, which have been created long before I begun to have fun with the wiki-pages.

My current hobby-sub-project is this page:
https://forums.factorio.com/wiki/inde ... n_page_new

As you see here on the bottom, the language-links are more consistently. In the end I want to automate that language-bar with a template and this is also the way, which is more or less used by mediawiki itself.

And to make the structure clear, how I currently think that the linking between the different languages can work:

Code: Select all

Main page              Is the English main page
Main page/de           The German main page
de:Hauptseite           A redirect to the Main page/de - if useful! I think in most cases it is not needed to have special language pages.

Another example

Code: Select all

Inserter                 English
Inserter/de              German
Inserter/pl               Polish
Inserter/ru              Russian
de:Knickarmroboter        Redirect to Inserter/de - this redirects are not always needed, it depends strong on the "feel of the language".
ru:изги́б ро́бот         Redirects to Inserter/ru (I don't have any glue if this is correctly translated, but it is is just an example)

If no translation is available, we can just include the Inserter-page.

2. Why is the current structure not already set up for different languages?

The problem is, that this wiki exists since > 1 year and has been developed by - I can't say it differently, but I don't mean it negative! - by amateurs. The translators come from time to time, translate some pages and leave again due to the big work. Then the structure has changed and nothings fits together anymore... And there are many, many other mistakes, which are done...

Also me is an amateur and I learn just the hard way, how it is eventually correct. So, be free to suggest a better way or just make it. I think nobody will cry too loud and for the badest mistakes we all watch that.

3. Ideas?

Well, I've plenty ideas. But much more important for me are the priorities.

#1 prio to import item/recipe/entity-pages automatically
#2 to get the information structure (that what you see currently on the main-page, the networks, concepts and so on) fixed and so extendable, that new game content fits into it (at least for some versions)
#3 setting up different "views" of the content and more separating from the mods-content
#4 long nothing and then translations

Let's that explain a bit more:

For #1 I'm working since end of last year on some converters for the items/entities/recipes etc. so that they are generated and updated automatically, including the pics and many more information.
You need to know, that the current item- recipe- and so on -pages are generated by Factorio itself. There are options, which enable to print that out as Wiki-content and from there it was uploaded into the wiki. So this is already automateable, but I don't think, that it is useful to have a C++-binary as generator for wiki-pages. This is just stupid.

My problem with that is, that I don't have much time to program that. This has different reasons. Currently I'm at the point where I can walk through the data-structures and begin to generate stuff. But I won't just throw out pages, I want it also structured, self-references, categorized and those things need a lot of time to think about, because I want it so, that it works also, when I have no fun anymore with Factorio and others should make the job... This is to point #2.

To #3 I come back to the new main-page (link from above):

I will throw out the whole "Network" stuff and so on and explain just the items. I think more or less like the current build-screen looks; switch the tabs and have the four main-categories and then you can click for example on an inserter and land on the page for that inserter, but there is also the included content for the general information about inserters and some more informations which are more or less autogenerated.

I don't have much time for that, but it looks good to have some more first version end of month.

4. Conclusion

Again: my first thought is about automating the wiki-generation, then having then english contents right, in a form which is robust enough to survive - let's say - the next 3 releases (the oil-industry changed so many things, then the that nothings fits any more), then setting up more views onto the content, especially for beginners.

And how can you help?
I would appreciate any help (perhaps I should put my programs on github, even if they are total crap yet...), I have also nothing against "I want to do my thing", every information is better, then no information, so be free to change the pages and so on, they are free to change, it's not my ownership on them!

I just can't tell you, how to do it. It is in the flow. I know it will change a lot.

But what I would apreciate much more is talking about, if this is the right way. Is my current vision really correct? Do you know a better way? Do you have a better idea? Did you have experiences in that? What would you await from the wiki? Is the translation really so important for an alpha-version of a game? Shouldn't there not be much more pictures in it, so that translation is just not so much needed?

Such things. Others are invited to discuss, too.

[Kupferdrache]

so I have to create a forum account anyway. I stubbled into this discussion because I got intressed in modding fatorio. and if i found something that isn't on the Wiki yet I can add it when I am at it. so I found the scrap with the differend langages, like I have seen in so many other game wikis from dwarf forttress to runescape the is a usually more or less good maintained english main wiki and several separed hosted other language pages, even if the are hosted all by the same (runescape for instance) there is no proper interwiki linking like used by wikipedia, so that users can access Information in their own language and if nesseary switch to other language versions, if thei??? contain futher information on choosen subject.

In my opion this is especial important for modding. also because in case of factorio 0.9 changed a lot of things.

My special modding interrest the function

Code: Select all

productivitymodulelimitation()

in base/base/prototyp/item/modules.lua thats new in 0.9 factorio, but atm undocumented. I not sure if I can use it in my own mod and even if it possible I'm not sure how to use it properly.

ssilk is right if we stay with the mess we have at the moment we get into trouble, also all Info on Items before mayor changes get lost to. good example to to prevent that can be found in dwarf forttress wiki but, for pro Interwiki linking help by the site admin is nesseary, because some maintance must be done in the wikis config files for that.

Hope haven't forgotten anything important.
so long

[DexterNemrod]

Maybe it would be a good idea to check the existing recipe entries.

I just discovered that the recipe for Science 2 has changed (needing an Inserter instead of "just" an electronic circuit).
(dunno when it has changed, since I didn´t play Factorio for quite a while ... but perhaps it isn´t the only changed recipe in game ...
the wiki, however still lists the old recipe)

[Kupferdrache]

that one of many recipe that was changed with 0.9.x, buit thats also only a symptom of the prolem ssilk mentioned.

[Grey]

started reworking of the "railway" article. https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?title=Railway
Hope that the separation in beginner/advanced/expert is ok. I want to keep beginner and advanced topics without links in this article. As the experts stuff is usually a lot of explanations I am ok with making special pages for expert topics.

Hope you like it that way, but only "Beginner" section is almost finished.

[Joefesok]

Since I can't do translation for now I'll try to prioritize fixing grammar going from pages on the front page of the wiki --> Pages linked by the first pages which are of importance --> Complex pages requiring explanation/ Pages with broken grammar --> Pages lacking content

[Grey]

I think we should first fix the structure of the wiki itself. As this would require reworking the articles anyway it would be better to fix grammar afterwards.

FOR ITEMS PART
so for the items we have one article for each item. - we should keep like that.

we have one more "overview" article for items of different tiers - like "Furnaces", "assembling machines", "inserters", "belts" - not sure if we should keep those and put the "common" stuff in each article separately

what about "overview" articles for "Player Equipment" and "vehicles"? think we should keep them also as they give a brief overview of what items are available in factorio for a certain intention, for example what to put in my armor or what to use for transportation...

There's one "Items list" listing all items with links to their pages. So pretend the Items list is the root we can go with a structure like this:

Items List
--Furnaces
----furnace
----steel furnace
----electric furnace
--inserters
----inserter
---- etc...

FOR CONCEPTS PART
there should be only one article covering basic and advanced knowledge to have a shallow structure for new players. Expert knowledge can easily cover multiple pages of text so these can be separate articles to be linked to the basic page.

we would need those pages for electric, belt, circuit, logic, railway, pipe networks... maybe another one covering some basic "defense" strategies.

Tree structure would then be as following:

Main Page
--belt networks (covering basic & advanced parts)
----expert article #1
----expert article #2
--pipe network
----expert #1
---- etc...


but we have to that structure before, as it requires lots of reworking in the articles, thus making grammar correction now obsolete.

Tell me what you think, if my structure has conceptual flaws, or if you have ideas for improvement.

[ssilk]

I think one of the weakness of the current wiki is, that it tries to be both: A game-guide and a wiki.

Now we have that guide (which is not bad, but definitely needs improvements) and we can concentrate just on the wiki-part and link the game-guide with that - for example.

That means to think as wikipedia: We have a word and the domain of that word and try to explain that as deep as possible. That means: That word is listed in some categories. And on the main page we bring that categories to the front-user. And for us this means: Just simple doing article by article, put them into the right category and the sorting of that articles is done by mediawiki, not by hand!

The rest should be some finetuning.

For the word "network": I really think "belt transport system" hits the name much better, than "belt network". Most of the "network" stuff is a remaining of the first half year of the wiki. A network is really something different (true for electric, circuits, maybe logistics), but everything else is a "system".

I also think, that distinction between basic, advanced and expert is just stupid, that is guide-stuff. For the wiki we should just concentrate to explain some subject in detail and to keep the categories up to date.

[HanziQ]

If you have something, that needs to be done on the technical side, or something, PM me.

[Grey]

Confirm that network -> system renaming.

regarding the wiki<->guide problem. Yes indeed it should be no full in-depth guide, but as there is no "proper" manual we should give at least an introduction to the items and the concepts of the game and tell players how to use them. How to make them work together most efficient is part the guide then.

That's what I meant with put basic and advanced knowledge in the articles directly. For expert knowledge and deep guides links are enough.
For example the "Railway system" is quite complex. you need to cover track building, train assembling, schedules and rail signals. For sure you can divide all that to the respective item pages. But I like the idea to have all related info at one point. So if you want to start using railways you only have to read one article, instead of searching for everything related in locomotives, tracks, signals, and trainstop articles.

I am still working on that railway article, but in the end it will briefly describe:
Beginners:
how to build track
how to assemble/fuel/drive trains
advanced:
how to use train stops
how to make schedules
how to use signals
expert:
all links that were scattered around that article before containing:
how much loco's per wagon to get top speed
how to put signals to prevent gridlocks
...


i think its better to have links to this "railway system" article from all the track parts and so on. So the item articles remain quite short and only contain the basic information about the item.

[Joefesok]

We could also just build a comprehensive "guide" article splitting between as many game aspects as possible and linking to pages when needed.

For now IMO it's more important to fully detail and make understandable each aspect of the game so players can figure things out on their own, then move on to guides. For example, explain train signals, but don't create page-wide train stop templates on the main railway page.

[Grey]

i would go for a small oval to show a "testing setup" only. So everything necessary would be only about 2 pages, covering the raw basics on how the items/system works together. Everything else is hidden in the expert articles or the be explored by player himself. But after reading the article it should be possible to setup a railway network transporting items automatically, and have a brief introduction to signals.

but if you check now, there are articles on trains, train/driving, train/reverse driving, and lots more of this in my eyes nonsence content.

[Joefesok]

Please change the title of Main Page/New contents as read on the main page to "Main Page/New Content." It's just fixing a typo, and the page's name has already been changed.

[ssilk]

If you have something, that needs to be done on the technical side, or something, PM me.

Thanks. Does that mean also to ask for a new wiki? To begin from scratch?

Edit: The long term plans for the game are also so, that the game should have some kind of "training levels".
With all my experience with the wiki I can say, that some things in the game can explained in one small GIF, where writing that needs a whole page. It's because everything in Factorio is moving. Any language is very not useful to describe changing things. It's to describe non-changing stuff.

So I see it here: The underground belt trick cannot described well in words, but a pic is much better, much more better is a gif or a video and the best, if you explain it in the game...

[Grey]

if i find some time i will prepare some new screenshots. I see that about half of my early done Screens are still used. ^^ even if they are about 2 years old.

[acryinshame]

Hello Everyone!
I wanted to go ahead and put my 2 cents in all this. I feel that the WIKI should be just that. a WIKI, where it gives detailed information on each item/Entity. But I also feel that having a part of the wiki dedicated to guides would not do any harm. If we put a section of the wiki as a "Guides" section and remove that really stupid "beginner, advanced, expert" thing on the front page and just link to a "Guides" page that then links to all the different guides like the "Quick start guide" would be awesome. Then different things like the railway items can have a link to the guide pages or better yet to the railway guide.

[Joefesok]

Hello Everyone!
I wanted to go ahead and put my 2 cents in all this. I feel that the WIKI should be just that. a WIKI, where it gives detailed information on each item/Entity. But I also feel that having a part of the wiki dedicated to guides would not do any harm. If we put a section of the wiki as a "Guides" section and remove that really stupid "beginner, advanced, expert" thing on the front page and just link to a "Guides" page that then links to all the different guides like the "Quick start guide" would be awesome. Then different things like the railway items can have a link to the guide pages or better yet to the railway guide.

I'm inclined to agree.

Having a guide is nice but we really don't need it. At all.

[Grey]

I agree that the categories for beginner/advanced/expert on main are wrong sorted. For beginner players there is no need to know about "work" and "game ticks" that is expert knowledge.

For beginners it should be the item list and info about inserters, belts, and power, maybe assemblers. Advanced should cover circuit/logistic network, railway chemistry and all other "systems". Expert should contain in depth guides.

Separating the single articles into beg/adv/exp is a good idea in my eyes. As players can decide where to stop reading and start thinking themselfs. Beginner gives you brief intro on how the system works. Adv covers the cool and comfortable features. Expert shows you how to get most effective.

But main page should be changed or at least new sorted.

[Koub]

If I may, I know I have already posted about this in another topic, but It's probably forgotten by now.
If I had time to work for the wiki, I'd try to do something that looks like that :
http://terraria.gamepedia.com/Terraria_Wiki
This wiki is close to perfect in the way you can find everything you need in very few clicks.

I'd see one "The Game" section, aiming to provide only game data with :
- Research : all the technologies in a table, sortable by name, tech level, prerequisite tech, tech it unlocks
- Enemies : linking to the list of biters, spitters, worms, and their spawners
- Weapons
- Ressources
- Intermediate products
- Final products
- Constructions (or the current Devices) (whatever you can place on the ground; including belts, inserters, assembling machines, chem plant, refinery, drills, ...)
- ...

Another section with mechanics & concepts (just the rules, no help and tips, just information) :
- Electric network
- Logistic network
- Robotic network
- Combinators & Logic
- Train network
- Ingame physics (liquid, belts, power, ...)
- Pollution
- Evolution factor
- ...

Another section with helpers (FAQ, howtos, ...)
- Headless server
- Multiplayer and port forwarding
- the console
- Using mods
- ...

- A link to version history with, on a single page, all the history contained in each major and minor release of the forum. It's a lot of work, but it would make searching things so much easier.
- A FFF section with a link to every FFF, with date and title.
- In the get the game section, just a link to all places the game can be bought (factorio website, steam factorio page, GoG (when Factorio will be on gog), ...)

I'm sure this would be a lot more ergonomic for the end-user.

[Grey]

I think I finished the beginner/advanced section of the Railway article. From my side it covers the basics with enough left to discover yourself. I moved all further links to the "expert" section. as I am not even as deep as they are maybe somebody could decide what is good and useful and which links/subpages to remove.

Next I will restructure the main page to make it a little smaller and easier accessible, as it is a overwhelming mess right now.
//I cannot do as only admins are allowed to edit the main page.

@HanziQ: is there an option to open the edit of main page?