Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by cpy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:11 pm

I can't open factorio.com

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Brick » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:13 pm

Looks like a great step for the game. With the addition of better UI the game will just become better and user friendly which is always welcome. Also that pollution fix is just a solid choice to keep the game smooth running through-out a playthrough. Can't wait to see what is next. :3
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Proxy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:19 pm

isn't Infinite Research impossible?
as it would Requere Infinite Data Storage and Infinite Processing Power to actually do that and use it.
Let's just wait til the Age of Iron Stars

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Klonan » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:35 pm

Proxy wrote:isn't Infinite Research impossible?
as it would Requere Infinite Data Storage and Infinite Processing Power to actually do that and use it.
Well humans don't have infinite storage or brain power, but you can get a piece of paper and keep multiplying the same number over and over

Infinite just means there will be no ceiling to the calculations, the research number will just increment, and the modifier it affects will just keep increasing

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Proxy » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:41 pm

well. i don't mean the process to get to Infinite, but rather what it would need to actually have it. just Displaying a Infinitly Long Number or Infinite amount of Follower Robots would be Impossible in a Limited Universe.
and i'm just gonna assume the Universe is a Closed object, with Limited Matter and Energy.
Let's just wait til the Age of Iron Stars

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Masterfox » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:42 pm

Right, what would happen if you just called /c game.player.force.research_all_technologies() ? This would probably caus an error for many things.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by MrGrim » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:49 pm

Infinite research looks great! I tend to leave my science factory operational in case I add a mod or something that needs research, but the ability to keep it busy and for tangible returns would be very welcome. I'm curious, though. Does only the cost increase, or can the associated bonuses also decrease algorithmically? Something like Bot speed X gives a speed boost equivalent to bot speed (X-1)/2.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Rseding91 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:56 pm

Masterfox wrote:Right, what would happen if you just called /c game.player.force.research_all_technologies() ? This would probably caus an error for many things.
Infinite research is a single technology definition. They're simply applied once when "research all" is triggered and remain available to keep researching after that.
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by mknejp » Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:25 pm

Is there a reason why blueprints use a different button sprite for renaming than train stations which already have a perfectly good edit button?
I never really understood the point of that arrow thing. Always looked like a "repeat" button to me.
rename.png
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by ssilk » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:07 pm

This queue mechanism is interesting for modders. Super useful if a modder would be enabled to create different types of future events (plus data).

In this context: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=33441&p=212499&hil ... er#p212481
forget the first part, ---> Timers
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Thunderbug » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:11 pm

For the pollution Map calculations: you might be able to further optimise it by dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks and always updating one of those chunks. The Advantage is that you don't have to skip so many tiles with each Access which should greatly improve Cache locality and thus give you faster memory Access ;)

Keep up the great work ^^

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Rseding91 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:47 pm

Thunderbug wrote:For the pollution Map calculations: you might be able to further optimise it by dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks and always updating one of those chunks. The Advantage is that you don't have to skip so many tiles with each Access which should greatly improve Cache locality and thus give you faster memory Access ;)

Keep up the great work ^^
What? "dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks" - chunks are composed of tiles currently. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by GuiltyBystander » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:49 pm

How do you plan to do infinite research for normal/stack inserter bonus? This one is slightly different because every level of tech isn't the same.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Yttrium » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:40 pm

Rseding91 wrote:
Thunderbug wrote:For the pollution Map calculations: you might be able to further optimise it by dividing all the tiles chunks into 60 and always updating one of those chunks pieces. The Advantage is that you don't have to skip so many tileschunks with each Access which should greatly improve Cache locality and thus give you faster memory Access ;)

Keep up the great work ^^
What? "dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks" - chunks are composed of tiles currently. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I think what he meant to say is that you should distribute the chunks across the 60 ticks you have, However they/you are already doing that.

Or he's talking about grouping "Idle chunks" together which I dont know how that would help in this scenario.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Ranakastrasz » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:44 pm

I hope that blueprints also include the import export of Blueprint String. A lot of other websites use that, and I can't see a reason to not include that part.
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Pe334 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:51 pm

I like to have a Goal for researchin and also make a big factor.
Maybe after the vanilla-research you get a new lab wich can do the invenite research, so for the player who like to Research "all-vanilla" there will be a goal for it 8-)

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by aubergine18 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:35 pm

Rseding91 wrote:The GUIs used by the core game have far more complex requirements and use cross-GUI logic that would simply not work if done as a mod. Making something like the blueprint library GUI, or the trains GUI a mod is not likely to ever happen.

Because we control the GUI and when it's created, interacted with, and removed we can also make performance optimizations and skip extra checks because we can guarantee the state of the GUI compared to in mods *everything* has to be sanity checked and that slows it down by incredible amounts.
I was thinking more along the lines of the "always on" UI - the minimap, the buttons above it, the info panel below it, the tool/weapon inventory, the quickbar... If modders had the ability to turn those off (well, we already can I think) but then use those LuaGui regions to add our own GUI, I think we could achieve some interesting results without notable performance impacts.

We wouldn't need to interact with what's in the minimap, it would just be this black box GUI element that we could dump in to one of our GUI layouts. Same sort of thing with the "CCTV camera" things that you get in train UI - another black box that we could dump in to our layouts. In both cases, passing either a position or an entity, with optional zoom level, and the map/cctv focuses on that. Is there some way we could at least get something like that to experiment with, under full acceptance that it might be removed prior to final release?
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by ssilk » Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:49 pm

Rseding91 wrote:
Thunderbug wrote:For the pollution Map calculations: you might be able to further optimise it by dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks and always updating one of those chunks. The Advantage is that you don't have to skip so many tiles with each Access which should greatly improve Cache locality and thus give you faster memory Access ;)

Keep up the great work ^^
What? "dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks" - chunks are composed of tiles currently. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I think he means that each tile's pollution is updated each tick. That would be really impossible.

@Thunderbug: A chunk is 32*32 tiles (1024) and the pollution is a property of a chunk, not a tile.

See https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?title=Chunk
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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by Zeblote » Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:32 pm

Rseding91 wrote:
Thunderbug wrote:For the pollution Map calculations: you might be able to further optimise it by dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks and always updating one of those chunks. The Advantage is that you don't have to skip so many tiles with each Access which should greatly improve Cache locality and thus give you faster memory Access ;)

Keep up the great work ^^
What? "dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks" - chunks are composed of tiles currently. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I think he means something like this:

1) On start, create 60 vectors of chunk pointers
2) On chunk creation, insert it into one of the vectors
3) Every tick, update pollution for the chunks in the (tick % 60)th vector with a simple loop

That way there'd be no need to re-insert the chunks into queue for 60 ticks ahead.

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Re: Friday Facts #161 - Infinite Research and Blueprint Library

Post by starholme » Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:02 am

Zeblote wrote:
Rseding91 wrote:
Thunderbug wrote:For the pollution Map calculations: you might be able to further optimise it by dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks and always updating one of those chunks. The Advantage is that you don't have to skip so many tiles with each Access which should greatly improve Cache locality and thus give you faster memory Access ;)

Keep up the great work ^^
What? "dividing all the tiles into 60 chunks" - chunks are composed of tiles currently. I'm not sure what you're talking about.
I think he means something like this:

1) On start, create 60 vectors of chunk pointers
2) On chunk creation, insert it into one of the vectors
3) Every tick, update pollution for the chunks in the (tick % 60)th vector with a simple loop

That way there'd be no need to re-insert the chunks into queue for 60 ticks ahead.
Hard to know without the dev's chiming in, but the version they show in the FFF is likely done that way. They don't keep shuffling the pointers forward, they just iterate along. When they hit 59, start back at 0. Sounded like they also only keep 'active' chunks in these buckets as well, so they don't need to touch the inactive ones at all.

I wonder if they bother to balance each bucket? So you don't end up with 300 chunks to process one tick, 3 the next.

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