Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

[Lee_newsum]

Research revolution
I would add that "advanced Lab" for Science pack 3, Production science pack and High tech science pack.

Production science pack
Electric engine unit x1
Fast transport belt X1 ( or Express)
Steel plate x20
Stone brick x10 (may be)

High tech science pack
Battery x1
Processing Unit X3 (I think one would be good)
Speed module 1 x1
Productivity module 1 x1
Efficiency module 1 x1

so that you think

[1234tv]

How do the labs automatically develop technology?? Either there are people working inside, using the resources for experiments and prototyping, or there's a godly AI inside each lab, somehow constructed with a few basic circuit boards. Either way makes no sense.

And what happens to all the science pack resources? They just vanish... These copper plates and gear wheels have helped me discover laser turrets and now they will pop out of existence.

It would be much more realistic if technology came from space via trade. The most valuable thing to trade would be the alien artefacts, because they're unlikely to be found on other planets.

I could see trading as a way to access late game content.
If you want the new mining technology [can't find the FFF], you would have to send up satellites to find traders or build your own research station like FFF-74, but extendable at a high material cost. Send up resources (maybe science packs) with your rockets and then get the late game technologies.
This would also give the need to increase the production of rocket parts to accelerate the research.

[Fish]

Looking forward to these science changes.
Hmm, I'd have to rethink my entire base
Nice

[hoho]

Geez, I wonder if there ever comes a day when I don't like the updates you make to the game?
Science pack rework is great.
MP, while I personally don't play it, also looks promising.

Regarding PVP-ready map generation, how about introducing symmetry to the whole map? Generate a single 45-degree pie slice of the map, mirror it about the diagonal to get a quarter of the map, and then mirror that onto the other three quadrants. Boom, 8 identical starting locations (though the mirroring means you would have a different "border" with each of your two neighbors).

Why hardcode it to 8? Just divide 360 by however many players join the game and give each a proportionally equal sized piece of the map

Of course, that would mean that players can't join after the game has started but that's pretty much a requirement in any case.

...minimize research griefing...

I always felt this could be easily fixed by making research progress persistent, so when you switch back to researching an old technology, it retains any progress already made. Seems kind of silly that this is not the default behavior.

This behavior was added to the game several (minor) versions ago. I think it has existed for almost a month now.

[Masterfox]

I like the new ideas, but (risking the majority will hate me) how about liquid science? This would sure add some interesting new logistics problems.

[steinio]

What the hell...
The new science packs are way to expensive.

Belt and inserter are OK but electric furnace or electric engine?

[vampiricdust]

Infinite science and more packs, I am a fan.

My own headcanon for the science packs is that the AI is performing a series of random tests to make sure that the tech being unlocked will work as expected. So the science packs, depending on the tech being unlocked, get modified, tested, and analyzed. Once the labs finishes, it provides spec alterations to ensure the alien world doesn't adversely affect the equipment. No human or smart AI is needed, it is sort of like the automated tests the Devs use to find bugs.
Which, I am in favor of renaming them test kits (red-kit, blue-kit, etc....).

[kovarex]

What the hell...
The new science packs are way to expensive.

Belt and inserter are OK but electric furnace?

You might be right, this is why we will playtest it.

[Adil]

A pvp with strict win condition in factorio? Really, just use that devtime on new mechanics or something. Games with >3 hours of base building aren't really fit for skirmishes.

[equitime77]

I like the changes to the science packs. It will be interesting to see how they work out and will probably need tweaking along the way. Currently there is too big a jump between green and blue. Its also good to see different things that can be made being used for the science packs, that makes us have to make more things and have a bigger working factory.

With the fluid tanker will this take all the fuids within the game or just oil?

[hoho]

What the hell...
The new science packs are way to expensive.

Belt and inserter are OK but electric furnace or electric engine?

Old blue science pack was a tad bit too expensive. The new one is MUCH cheaper.

Basically, what they did was to create a new pack for military related things and another two for replacing the old alien science packs at somewhat higher cost than old science pack #3's.

It its more expensive or not is yet to be seen. A lot depends on how late-game researches are using those packs. Also, it's pretty much impossible to compare the old alien pack with the newer ones as the mechanism for collecting resources for each are vastly different.

[Andrzejef]

I'd say two things about new science packs:
1) Engines eat less time, energy and management to procure than batteries, at time they start to be needed for science, which is good. I don't have to focus on science developement only, I can pick which way I want to go, science, or e.g. railways. I'm kinda unsure how assembly plants in ingredients list would work, so I won't say a thing about them.
2) Military/production/high tech specialised packs, I'll need to supply all of them to each research unit available for smooth and unhindered research (unless providing each lab with other SP works too, but as I remember from 12.3 it doesn't, and I haven't seen such change), which kind of overcomplicates things, and is - in turn - not nice. Makes making clusters not really appealing. Instead, I'd rather go in the direction of picking lab focus, and that later techs would require certain lab focus. That way science packs still stay simple, science is progressing, "clustering is still nice, only you have different clusters for different tasks - the other, not specialised labs - not to stay idle - will still colaborate towards specialised tech, only with lowered efficiency (say 50%).

Now about pvp:
1) I think that actually less than 4 players/teams/etc takes away the possibility for "tactical depth" - no way of temporary alliances, finishing off "common" enemy and stuff of this kind.
2)Maps for 8 - let's call them groups - should rather be large, rather on "random enounters" basis, because otherwise it will become chaotic. Still, smaller maps still have some advantages, little stirring in such a fine pot is not necesarrily a bad thing
3) I agree, map should be kinda sliced and mirrored, or players should be allowed to pick a suitable starting zone in some quoted area, kind of like troop placing in Total War series looks like.

Oh, and I almost forgot alien packs, or rather level before - alien artifacts. I think, use alien packs for super-high-tech stuff research, then use the artifacts for crafting items, like you know, enhanced oil, engines, warp gates (for a limited distance) to move stuff, as proposed quite a bit of posts higher alien-slave gas weapon. Generally stuff like that, mostly for the sheer pleasure of having them

This are my thoughts, anyway.

[Ratzap]

What the hell...
The new science packs are way to expensive.

Belt and inserter are OK but electric furnace?

You might be right, this is why we will playtest it.

The items themselves don't worry me at all, people should be automating that stuff by that point anyway.

What does matter is the iron/copper balance. Please take care that it's not all iron heavy items (or all copper, you know what I mean).

[Andrzejef]

(...)Which, I am in favor of renaming them test kits (red-kit, blue-kit, etc....).

That. Would make a bit more sense.

What does matter is the iron/copper balance. Please take care that it's not all iron heavy items (or all copper, you know what I mean).

I have no idea, but I agree - I've depleted 5 huge iron sites, and my first, small copper site still lasts - barely, but still. Some resource balance would be nice - maybe make some "iron" items cheaper?

[Mehve]

Looks awesome, and that is one seriously sexy liquid wagon.

Also, I realize that this is still theoretical, but the High Tech science pack looks a little too close to the rocket controller recipe. Maybe switch the module to an efficiency or production, just for variety? And for the Production pack, go one step further and require a liquid pump instead of the electric motor? Those things tend to get forgotten a lot of the time, save for the rare instance of pocket crafting.

[rubberduck]

what are the plans with blueprints for Version 0.15

a while back you floated the idea to implement a way to port our blueprints from one save to another game.
is that postponed?

[floodo1]

what are the plans with blueprints for Version 0.15

a while back you floated the idea to implement a way to port our blueprints from one save to another game.
is that postponed?

https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-156

[commandoby]

Очень понравилась идея с PvP. Я хочу предложить не копировать стартовый участок, а асфальтировать участки появления игроков. Как вариант.

[rbrucemtl]

I had an idea for the infinite research...

Why not just have a maintenance cost for each research type... Example, too be able too keep your range and damage at max you need to feed so many military packs in a certain time or the range and damage of your military items with start to decrease over time slowly. Same idea for other research areas too.

[BHakluyt]

Hello to all

I love that this game's developers have a weekly update/FF. I have some ideas I want to present to the developers and the community.

I would probably never forget how awesome my first Factorio play through was. It was crazy difficult to figure out how the game work without google, playing the campaign or using YouTube. I really felt I was stranded on a planet but could use basic knowledge to improve my situation through the dark ages. When I have finally got green science up I felt so proud and amazed by what I have created (my factory) to get there. Blue science was even more difficult, but at least at that time I had a grasp of the basic system and mechanics of how the game works. It was challenging and I loved it.

I think the original recipes should be kept the same to some extend, because of this fun and authentic difficulty experience and also a few other thoughts to follow... However, some changes to science is definitely necessary. Perhaps changing science to focus on using engine units will also create that same difficulty, then it would be good. But now what will I do with all my filter inserters? I don't use them so much. However, I think science needs to be "painted/skinned" differently to be more immersive. I refer to a great mod I found called MoSkin. It renames the bottles to Mechanical Science Pack/kits for Red, Electronic for blue, Biological for alien droppings etc, something in that order. With nice icons representative of the items used and packs created. For me this creates a big difference in the feel of reality around the concept of research.

I changed a mod that added another orange science bottle (bggameimprovements mod?) I changed the icon/sprite to an orange molecule and renamed to Molecular Science Kit. Now it all fits with MoSkin mod.

Science.png (1.98 MiB) Viewed 8153 times

Science 2.png (1.22 MiB) Viewed 8153 times

The other immersive result of this can be that labs require these pre-packaged packs and high speed inserters, computers, laboratory distillers and other gizmos do millions of different arrangements and combinations of items contained in the different science packs and eventually (based on research time) finds a solution to a puzzle where all fits together to make you laser turrets or whatever.

+1 for Aubergine18's ideas:
Combine some liquids to produce liquid science packs.
Better use/sorting/progression based on colours, including example transport belt colours etc according to research tier. Match everything's colour with its tier and change them when necessary.
Present more than one option/recipe to research certain branches/items.

Regarding the tool-tips showing the new science requirements in the FF: Isn't 3x blue circuits a bit hectic? Its just SO expensive to make them already. Maybe a mod changed it in my 200 hr plus factory, but I still struggle to keep up.
Alien science packs can be made viable with including something like Robot Army mod which does have the potential to automate war and the collection of the artifacts. This will result that alien droppings/biological samples become a minable resource just like iron, copper and oil.
By including something like robot armies it will also allow to expand PvP gameplay. Imagine having these huge mechanical armies or trained biters with which you can go attack enemy bases, like in Age of Empires or Stronghold, Starcraft etc.
(This game is almost like all games combined in one while giving the player still the opportunity to not use certain aspects, so making it more RTS like in a way would do no harm. I think RTS is the right term.)

Perhaps it is needed to implement another resource to the game. This will lessen the strain on iron and copper for the player as well as adding more depth to the game. Uranium would be a good one to implement since it will also be needed for the reactors you mentioned in a past FF.

The new liquid wagons looks awesome. I hope that you will make it able to transport 3 different fluids, since the sprite already looks like it. If players want to fill it with one liquid the pipe can just split to all three pumps, pumping all 3 tanks evenly until full.

Thank you for reading. Keep up the great work!