Friday Facts #159 - Research revolution

[qfeys]

What's the idea behind 30 copper wires in the recipe? "Enforcing" use of stack inserters? (It isn't just plain copper consumption, as that's less than a blue circuit).

Maybe the logistics challenge to have a shitload of items delivered to your machines? Normally your science machines only have a very low production rate, so you can supply a whole battery on a half belt. This will probably need a full belt of copper cable ever couple of machines.

[Demongornot]

Hey, I'm new here (Already 117h in few weeks) , first off, thanks for this amazing game !
As a new player I see a feature that could be nice for the science tree :

I was conducting some sandbox test to check/learn some behaviour of inserter and their stack upgrade...
But then, I spend more time looking at which research actually unlock the science pack I needed (3 and alien in this case) than researching all inserter stack upgrades/bonus

Showing the related research that unlock the science pack that this object require would be nice for those who don't know yet what those research who unlock those science pack are named or look like.
It will be even more important if science is changed cause even veterans players might spend long time to memorise which research is needed for a science pack for an item.
And even if we don't see the full tree of the science pack that is needed for the object we want to research, just the science pack research itself would be helpful.
I'm on 0.13 so I don't know if anything about this have changed on 0.14.

[Pe334]

I like the idear of the new science packs because I think now the game is to easy

Now I Play it with Bob and Angle's mod.

[Linosaurus]

Engine units in pack 3 is an interesting change. Going to need a lot of assemblers for that! I think I like having science take up some more room. And having to build a whole bunch of assemblers is definitely easier than setting up battery production for the first time.

edit:

Maybe the logistics challenge to have a shitload of items delivered to your machines? Normally your science machines only have a very low production rate, so you can supply a whole battery on a half belt. This will probably need a full belt of copper cable ever couple of machines.

Yeah, I agree. That's one copper cable assembler for every two high tech science assemblers, so we'll probably use direct insertion. Makes the layout a little more interesting.

[Dev-iL]

@Kovarex:
1) Interesting news about the science packs, sounds refreshing!
2) What were you guys thinking the capacity of the liquid wagon should be? 100? 200? Upgradable? (Perhaps make 3 tiers like small/medium/large - to add some sense of progression to trains as well?).

Making them asymmetrical is just the foundation for heated flamewars with "we just had the bad starting position - no you just suck"-stuff, like is the case in most other games that have asymmetrical maps.

Reminds me of some gif I saw recently:

The rocket launch is only there as a stalemate win condition, i expect most matches to be won through destruction of all other teams silos, but in that case of two impenetrable fortresses, a resource intensive win condition could work well to promote expansion for resources and to motivate players to disallow enemy expansion

1) I was happy to hear that PvP is getting some love! Thanks for that!
2) Speaking of endgame and rockets - maybe you guys should add a Dune-II-inspired deviator-like (see image below) weapon, which is an upgraded version of a gas grenade that can be thrown on aliens to convert them to your force and have them follow you around (at least temporarily) - this could help make some fortresses somewhat less impenetrable, or at least result in some fun final showdowns

[super_aardvark]

Regarding PVP-ready map generation, how about introducing symmetry to the whole map? Generate a single 45-degree pie slice of the map, mirror it about the diagonal to get a quarter of the map, and then mirror that onto the other three quadrants. Boom, 8 identical starting locations (though the mirroring means you would have a different "border" with each of your two neighbors).

[kane.nexus]

With the addition of so many science changes could we please see the addition of a research queue, if not just a setting in the research window to automatically start the cheapest research. This would allow an easier time to manage research when your server has a ton of people switching research around. This would also help minimize research griefing by removing the option to switch researches only add researches to be done. The option could be set before the map starts where the server is auto, add to queue only, or manual so the setting can't change mid game without restarting the server.

I know there are mods that offer a similar experience but you can't get achievements while using mods.

[Andrzejef]

2) Speaking of endgame and rockets - maybe you guys should add a Dune-II-inspired deviator-like (see image below) weapon, which is an upgraded version of a gas grenade that can be thrown on aliens to convert them to your force and have them follow you around (at least temporarily) - this could help make some fortresses somewhat less impenetrable, or at least result in some fun final showdowns

This, I like this one. Oh sweet mayhem!

I'm thinking however of some more "reliable" siege engine, than good ol' tank (not saying of course that mind-control gas wouldn't be nice). Aand bigger missiles than those shown, or than those player can shot. Something to force players to actually move around much more, and not only to gather resource. You know, gather a scouting party, mark a target zone, and LAUNCH! Something like a repurposed rocket silo - why should it only serve to "extract" stranded people from planet, while it could do much better - it could prevent others from escaping the orbit! It is huge enough, and could haul some nasty explosives. Because nothing beats a smoking NYC-size crater, true?

Or some lesser, less potent versions, to hide into such dense forests we get with new mapgen. Bonus points for some huge bad railraod cannon, a mobile, partly independent artillery unit, to blow the alien nests, or players - just saying - sky high. But that's just me

EDIT: Can we have some typo-correcting drones for roboports? Thanks.

[crysanja]

Realy like the new science packs.

However for new players, i would suggest an option at game start, to pick "easy"(old packs) or "advanced"(new packs).

[Rseding91]

Realy like the new science packs.

However for new players, i would suggest an option at game start, to pick "easy"(old packs) or "advanced"(new packs).

New players will have no idea what "old" is since that's the only thing they'll know of when they start playing.

[Cheesy Wotsit]

New poster but been playing the game for a good few months now, love the new science packs, specifically the fact that the late game science no longer requires the player to go hunting aliens just to unlock the tech needed to complete the game. It always seemed strange that you could go the pacificst route but were then essentially stuck with no way to progress to late game tech, unless you used mods. Can't wait to see how the alien artifacts now get used.

[MeduSalem]

Regarding PVP-ready map generation, how about introducing symmetry to the whole map? Generate a single 45-degree pie slice of the map, mirror it about the diagonal to get a quarter of the map, and then mirror that onto the other three quadrants. Boom, 8 identical starting locations (though the mirroring means you would have a different "border" with each of your two neighbors).

It's exactly what I had in mind too for 8 locations. And that you have 2 different borders isn't that bad... since the 7 other teams have exactly the same challenge of having to deal with that.

[Bi0nicM4n]

Alright, with so many people supporting the science change, I'm going to be the one arguing against it. The reason for this is that science becomes overcomplicated, too time-consuming to settle and thus unfun. Currently I have a well-established science factory build with 20 labs and 60 or so assemblers, that I used in several worlds already, which is rather simple, effective, somewhat compact and, most importantly, self-contained (I only input plates, coal, gas and steel to it). If end-products like electric furnaces and pumpjacks are gonna be used in science packs, then my science factory either grows to 50% of my main factory ground from current 15-20%, or becomes inoperable without using logistic bots and the whole factory virtually turning into a science factory.
Current science system is a good balance between being complicated or over-simplified, it takes some time to place, but not too much of it, and it suits my taste. If anything, science could simply have research costs tweaked, and/or you could make alien science pack need some more intermediates in addition to artifacts. But either way, 6 packs is just too much.

P.S. That liquid wagon looks very nice, I must say.

[LucidMoses]

Could it be a better idea to sort the items by science packs outstanding requirements. Taking away the "busy" looking science pack on every tile.

All a player rely needs to know is if I can research it (no outstanding) or what's needed to research it.

[Trev_lite]

One idea for the PvP is to bring back the rocket defense. A one time use building (or just a silo that needs to be loaded with intercepter missiles) that can shoot down a rocket. the Recipe could be high in high tech goods (to track and shoot down a rocket) but will not have the large production chain of an actual rocket. It should be more expensive than launching a rocket but easier to build. that way it will not get into a stale mate since the you can spam rockets easier than rocket defenses.

[Drury]

If you want an actual competition, don't go for more than 2 teams. Anything more is too chaotic for any strategic or tactical depth, plus it makes the players more hopeful that they can win when the chances are roughly 50%, and as a result more engaged. Plus you'll have 0 issues with players from defeated teams; the game ends when one team gets defeated.

Your issues with spawns can perhaps be solved in a similar manner to the way Offworld Trading Company does its own PvP. Similar to Factorio, the game is played on a randomly generated map with many different resources scattered about. Both players are given a certain amount of time pre-game to select the spots for their bases. They can choose from 4 different HQs, each of them has different resource preferences (robotic HQ doesn't require water, for instance). This means that there's a variety of different sweetspots on each generated map, not just the one which has all the resources. How I could see this working in Factorio would be as follows:

HQ is made up of a rocket silo enclosed in a decently large (spanning several ore fields) teamcolored metal grid-paved area. The recipe for teamcolored pavement is available from the start. You can only build on this teamcolored pavement, but you can pave any neutral surface, and you're free to walk and drive anywhere as usual. I imagine it being easy to craft, but expensive (EDIT: I realize now that would be stupid. It should be more complex but not expensive, so you have to tech up before expanding. The starting area should suffice for some time.). The point of this pavement is to prevent teams from griefing each other in unpredictable ways like mass-producing oil pumps and placing them on all oil fields in a radius etc.

Before the game starts, both teams have a full-screen overview of the map. There are no biters yet. Every player can click anywhere on the map to set their suggested HQ location, which gets highlighted on the map on the map for everyone to see with proper size. When everyone has placed their HQ and a timer runs out, the team votes whose placement was the most rational. Then, the game begins with all players spawning in their elected HQ position and start placing down miners on team-paved ore field etc etc. Biters are generated at this point with the two teams' HQ positions in mind. If playtests show that more types of HQs are necessary to prevent one-sided games due to one team getting a favorable placement, they should be considered, however I reckon they're require big changes to how the game plays. Might be better to have large or infinite maps, although if HQs were spawned too far apart, military options would become an issue. Nobody would drive their tank miles across into the enemy HQ to destroy a bunch of refineries and die.

Speaking of which, if you want base-destruction, you'll need new construction/destruction mechanics. When you lose a building in an RTS, you're screwed for quite some time and it can even be game-changing. In Factorio, you just plop down another one, which is annoying to both the defender (gosh, more wannabe base-destroyers) and attacker (wow I did absolutely nothing). Even then, generally you have several buildings of the same type to accelerate production, so losing a few isn't a big deal. To help this, I'd suggest having the resulting piles of scrap and rubble stay there for a certain amount of time before decaying, and make it impossible to build on rubble. That way, when attackers destroy something, it will stay destroyed for some time and actually give them an edge.

[Neemys]

Alright, with so many people supporting the science change, I'm going to be the one arguing against it. The reason for this is that science becomes overcomplicated, too time-consuming to settle and thus unfun. Currently I have a well-established science factory build with 20 labs and 60 or so assemblers, that I used in several worlds already, which is rather simple, effective, somewhat compact and, most importantly, self-contained (I only input plates, coal, gas and steel to it). If end-products like electric furnaces and pumpjacks are gonna be used in science packs, then my science factory either grows to 50% of my main factory ground from current 15-20%, or becomes inoperable without using logistic bots and the whole factory virtually turning into a science factory.
Current science system is a good balance between being complicated or over-simplified, it takes some time to place, but not too much of it, and it suits my taste. If anything, science could simply have research costs tweaked, and/or you could make alien science pack need some more intermediates in addition to artifacts. But either way, 6 packs is just too much.

P.S. That liquid wagon looks very nice, I must say.

If you just copy-paste already done setup every game yes that's not fun. I adapt science setup to the rest of the base, What resources I have, how my base is, if I already build big red circuit factory, I take some for research instead of having own red circuit factory near labs. I saw nothing in the recipe that is too hard to make. Better, having thing like assembly, furnace or pumpjack will force player to automate those one and then they will see how wonderfull it is to not hand craft them anymore.


Great news to see science having some rework. Better, not needing alien artifact. It's a game about automation and for the last science pack, raw material couldn't be get without player input.

PVP seem great, and more than starting area need to be the same on all side. If not, it will be unfair somehow.

[sekanz]

Loving the proposed shakeup to the research, devs!! Keep up the great work!!

[TroZ]

Wow, I like the science change. There is one problem with your late game science setup example, it needs about 40 more labs.

Actually, back in the day, Factorio version 0.6 and 0.7, I made a mod that added 5 additional science packs to the game and similarly overhauled the research system. There was no oil in the game back then, but I added a military, chemistry, electronics rocketry and vehicle science packs:
Chemistry Science Pack - 2 coal, 1 stone, 1 iron ore, 1 copper ore, gives 5 - used for chemistry research and some rocket research (rocket fuel composition)
Military Science Pack - 1 submachine gun, 5 basic magazines, 1 iron plate, 1 basic inserter, gives 5 - used for military research (something like the inserter fires the gun at the plate to test different bullets and armors)
Electronics Science Pack - 10 copper cable, 6 basic circuits, 5 iron plates and 2 lamps - enough to build some test circuits and maybe a transformer with the cables and iron and the lamps to indicate circuit output
Rocketry Science Pack - 1 rocket launcher, 10 rockets, 1 radar, and 5 military science packs, gives 5 - rocket testing materials, using the inserter from the military pack to fire rockets at the iron plate, or using the radar to track their range / speed
Vehicle Science Pack - 1 car, 1 fast transporter belt, 2 steel plate, 3 wood - only used for train research (if you already know about cars and trains, cars would be developed before trains, so I changed their research order), testing a car pulling a wood and steal cart compared to a fast transporter belt

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1273#p8884

Basically, I added enough science packs so that you would either need a very complex belt system (with at lease one underground belt running between the labs), or set up a mixed belt for the science packs (which is what I did in most of my play-tests). I also changed the research order of a few of the technologies and added a few items into the game (cars researched before trains, added axles that cars and train used, added a 'tracking center' which 'predicted' creeper attacks (this was before biters were added) etc.). I also made the 'rocket defense' (the old version of the rocket silo) much harder to craft needing a lot more material.


Anyway, I can't count the number of hours I put into that version of the game (at least three 30+ hour complete play-throughs and additional testing), and Steam has me approaching 400 hours, and I'm on my fourth multiplayer game with friends, one of which was with Bob's Mods. This is probably the second best 'bang for the buck' game I've every played, second only to Minecraft. So thanks to the developers for an awesome game that is still getting better with every release!


For PvP, it would be neat if you could craft 'attack drones' that would automatically attack the enemy bases (instead of following you), or have a way to convert bitters / spitters to your side. Also, it would be interesting if the center of the multiplayer maps had a small but infinite patch of each of the ores, and a few oil patches that always stayed at 2/sec. It would give something for the different teams to fight over. Some Command and Conquer and Warcraft / Starcraft multiplayer maps had similar setups.

[Yokhen]

Another thought on this, as I'm sure not everyone agrees with me (though they are WRONG ) is to have the science factor be governed by a game setting. Allowing masochist to make the game take more science if they desire it.

Marathon mod.

I don't like the marathon mod. I don't want everything in the game changed, just the science. I know it's easy enough to have in a mod, but I'm one of those weird people that play with few to no mods and those few that I do/have used in the past don't change gameplay, colored trains mod for example.

Then there is this mod ScienceCostTweaker Mod https://mods.factorio.com/mods/UberWaff ... ostTweaker
You can tweak it however you like in the configs.

How about just making it native? As an admin of a popular vanilla for-the-masses kind of server, I can speak on the behalf of my friend (server creator) that he (and I) doesn't want to add mods to the server for that would decrease the popularity of the server. Yet all the games last somewhere from 24 to 48 hours to complete, which is not fun at all. We are not really into resetting the game other than for error/bug purposes.