Suggestion about a water pump.

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OdinYggd
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by OdinYggd »

Possible alternative solution:

Eliminate the offshore pump in favor of a water intake that has no pumping capacity at all, and has to be connected to a pump to produce any significant output.

Then you pair this with the following pump arrangements:

1. "Steam Powered Pump". This is effectively a burner pump, it would have a capacity from 6-15 units/s since it is meant only for kick-starting and flow metering. Constructing it should require along the lines of 2 pipes, a circuit, and a furnace.
2. "Small Electric Pump" These already exist in-game with a 30 unit/s capacity. Edit the recipe to no longer require electric motors, as they could easily be diaphram type pumps that operate with only a vibrating coil on a rubber sheet.
3. "Large Electric Pump" Adding this unit would give an on-shore electric pump of 60 unit/s capacity same as the existing offshore pump has. The recipie should probably be similar to the current small electric pump, requiring an electric motor to construct.

That would result in some interesting gameplay of itself:

1. Power stations would require proper provision for blackstart, adding a token amount of complexity to the gameplay puzzle without being needlessly tedious or overwhelming for new players.

2. The additional pump types would be available for other fluids as well, giving players some flexibility in designing their piping systems instead of having to design it all around the single current option for pumping fluids other than water.

In terms of maintaining backwards compatibility with previous game versions that did not include these changes, the offshore pump would be replaced by the water intake- but players would need to manually revisit their piping schemes to include the appropriate pumping solution to keep it operating properly.

Along similar lines though, I really badly need a valve in-game that is controlled by the circuit or by logi but doesn't require electricity to permit flow and can flow in both directions instead of only one...
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk »

Hoeloe wrote:If you go for burnerpumps, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every pump you use.
If you go for burnersteamengine, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every steam-engine you use.

Hoeloe, I don't want to piss you off or so :) , what I do is still holding the mirror, that you see, that both suggestions are completely similar from game-play, but yours adds the complexity of needing to wire it from the burner-steam-engine to the pump. ;)
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by MeduSalem »

Well I obviously voted for maybe with hand/burner at startup and then electric to pick it up from there.

But that said... I already suggested multiple times that Factorio needs something like a general difficulty setting... in terms of gameplay complexity. Because with all the new players, the advanced and later the experts it is almost impossible to satisfy all of their needs/expectations with just one setting.

Like a Beginner mode where a lot is happening through "magic"... a Normal mode that is pretty much the middleground and the way it is currently, and an Expert Mode where stuff gets more serious because nothing runs through magic (including upkeep for offshore pumps, belts, etc). It could also affect research and recipes, because currently the game is quite frustrating for beginners and boring as hell for experts because the learning curve is logarithmic instead of exponential.

With a setting like that no one is forced to play it with the added complexity but it is there if you feel like taking the additional challenge. Also with the number of people supporting the additional complexity throughout the forum it would be ignorant to say that it's not worth additional development time (which doesn't mean it needs to be done by 0.16, it could be part of a later addon/expansion).
Last edited by MeduSalem on Wed Oct 05, 2016 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hoeloe »

ssilk wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:If you go for burnerpumps, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every pump you use.
If you go for burnersteamengine, it would make it way more complex since you need to deliver coal to every steam-engine you use.

Hoeloe, I don't want to piss you off or so :) , what I do is still holding the mirror, that you see, that both suggestions are completely similar from game-play, but yours adds the complexity of needing to wire it from the burner-steam-engine to the pump. ;)
It's okay, you just do your job :P
If you go for a burnerpump (you need to explain me how they could work, since i don't even know how burner inserter work) I need to add, that the normal pump must remain.
Would it be bad when the game gets more complex? It also gets more complex with your idea, even if it's in a different way. Also i want to mention with my idea it would be possible to do a redundant powersupply for your electrict coal mining drills. That would actually make the game easier :P

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by bobucles »

I think an energy pump would only add dumb clutter to the game. Burner inserters have their niche, but a burner pump is one of those things you build once and forget. As far as game changes go, you're making a player inconvenience(creating a factory shutdown disaster) to add in a nearly useless item. Um. WHY?

0/10 puzzle, would not solve.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by ssilk »

Hoeloe wrote:If you go for a burnerpump (you need to explain me how they could work, since i don't even know how burner inserter work) I need to add, that the normal pump must remain.
Hm. A burner pump is obviously a pump, that works with fuel instead of electric energy or "magic nothing", like currently.
Would it be bad when the game gets more complex? It also gets more complex with your idea, even if it's in a different way.
Well, it's not my idea. I just changed yours so, that it is a bit less complex, without loosing the basic idea...

My personal opinion about this subject is quite mixed. :) From my point of a change isn't needed.
Also i want to mention with my idea it would be possible to do a redundant powersupply for your electrict coal mining drills. That would actually make the game easier :P
Good point. :) But redundancy could also be, that you have nuclear energy and as reduntant energy still steam engines. Or - as now - have solar energy and accumulator and redundant energy is steam energy.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Koub »

On a second thought, I'd rather see a burner power generator that wouldn't use water for early game, like emergency generators work nowadays (except it would work on coal except petrol), at the cost of being far less fuel efficient than the burner + Steam engine setup. And then, okay, no more need for burner anything, you'd just need a few burner generators for your coal age.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hoeloe »

Koub wrote:coal age.
I like it! :D

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hannu »

bobucles wrote:I think an energy pump would only add dumb clutter to the game. Burner inserters have their niche, but a burner pump is one of those things you build once and forget.
In my opinion build once and forget -things makes the game boring. Of course it is ultimate goal of the Factorio, automate everything. But it is interesting and rewarding only if I have to think, plan, calculate and work to get a complex network of mutually interacting systems function and there are still some trade offs and uncertainties which force me to occasional supervising and service work. I lose interest to a game when I get my base "ready", all automated to nearly perfect level, and as large as I see interesting to build. But all easy build and forget -things, like current water pumps and solar panels, are just boring. Water pumps are not a big thing, but as well devs could scrap whole water from the game. Currently it is just plumbing of couple of pipes, which are more dumb routine work than interesting planning after few playthroughs and planning of good production layouts.

I agree with MeduSalem. Because there are so different players in Factorio, devs should use time to make different complexity options. They would not to necessarily be options in vanilla game. Instead they could be options to increase complexity through modding even these functions would not be used in vanilla game. Different energy sources for items, energy consumption and pollution as properties of recipe instead of manufacturing entity, unpredictable seasonal and weather effects to give more challenge to energy production etc. would give very much more interesting content in Factorio. They would not change vanilla game at all but would open huge possibilities to modders and reality and/or complexity fans who want to make couple of hundreds of hours unpaid engineering work to play a video game. It seems that share of such players is not marginal. Large complex mods, like Bob's, are very popular and there are regular hopes of more complexity in forums.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer »

Koub wrote:On a second thought, I'd rather see a burner power generator that wouldn't use water for early game, like emergency generators work nowadays (except it would work on coal except petrol), at the cost of being far less fuel efficient than the burner + Steam engine setup. And then, okay, no more need for burner anything, you'd just need a few burner generators for your coal age.
coal age you say? where is my burner "powered" assembly machine :lol:

btw. you know, that trains require engine (which obviously look diesel), yet use coal/wood as fuel :D

but both of these are OT here ... so i will cut it.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by hk29 »

couldnt the current offshore pump be nerfed to provide a percentage (like 30%) of what it provides now so it would take multiple but still provides that magic power that makes it work. add an upgrade to say offshore pump plus engine to burn some type of fuel to bring back to full pump pressure and then 3 level upgrade would be offshore pump plus electric engine with electricity needed. would seem to add complexity and options but yet not make it overly complex for new players. so given the standard 1/14/10 ratio, one possible ratio could be 3/4/4. but i have been playing a while so any new challenge i would be okay with

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Alice3173 »

hk29 wrote:the standard 1/14/10 ratio
This is a bit unrelated to this specific topic but it'd be extremely helpful if information was given in game to help us figure out these ratios better. As far as I'm aware pumps don't give you any production values and steam engines don't give any fluid consumption values.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by mexmer »

Alice3173 wrote:
hk29 wrote:the standard 1/14/10 ratio
This is a bit unrelated to this specific topic but it'd be extremely helpful if information was given in game to help us figure out these ratios better. As far as I'm aware pumps don't give you any production values and steam engines don't give any fluid consumption values.
good point - post it as separate idea - fluid production value, and fluid consumption value.

pumpjacks (for oil pumping), show pumping speed, and .. hmm chemical plants, well they have consumption decided by recipe, but other than that, indeed such info is missing, while energy consumption is present everywhere i think.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by bobucles »

We're also talking about the lowest tier of power, which is the player's introduction to the game. It SHOULD be simple. Players shouldn't be solving complex logistic puzzles just to get their bearings in order. Pumps give players a bit of practice with water lines and are nearly impossible to screw up, which is perfectly fine for a beginner puzzle.

It's not a good idea to punish a novice player who is still learning a system. Energy pumps punish players who stall on energy by shutting the factory down. Those kinds of troubles belong at mid and endgame.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Alice3173 »

mexmer wrote:good point - post it as separate idea - fluid production value, and fluid consumption value.
Done. Hopefully it hasn't already been suggested before. I didn't see anything about it during my search though.

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Hoeloe »

ssilk wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:
Also i want to mention with my idea it would be possible to do a redundant powersupply for your electrict coal mining drills. That would actually make the game easier :P
Good point. :) But redundancy could also be, that you have nuclear energy and as reduntant energy still steam engines. Or - as now - have solar energy and accumulator and redundant energy is steam energy.
To clarify: I meant what I wrote, to have a redundant powersupply for the electric coal miningdrills. They could pick coal from the belt before it goes to the normal boilers/steamengines. Because often when I have power problems it starts with using more power than produced. Then the powernetwork gets unstable which causes the electricdrills to mine less coal which ends up in a vicious circle.

For sure you can do more complex redundancy when you reach T2, solar and accus. But in that early game I don't want to work with them because you need steel and batteries for it. Also I can't decide about the nuclear energy since I don't know how it will work. In every game I know nuclear power has a big downside like meltdown and stuff. In IRL nuclear power needs to be used to 100%, power supply is not allowed break to keep the cooling/water running which is also not allowed to break. Also I don't know what changes it will give to the powerusage order. Since the order is Solarpower>Steampower>Accus you allready need to do a complex switch to let your factory run with only solar/accus allday and have steampower as redundancy if something fails. I built one of thos switches...
Powerswitch solar and accu

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by OdinYggd »

Hoeloe wrote:
ssilk wrote:
Hoeloe wrote:
Also i want to mention with my idea it would be possible to do a redundant powersupply for your electrict coal mining drills. That would actually make the game easier :P
Good point. :) But redundancy could also be, that you have nuclear energy and as reduntant energy still steam engines. Or - as now - have solar energy and accumulator and redundant energy is steam energy.
To clarify: I meant what I wrote, to have a redundant powersupply for the electric coal miningdrills. They could pick coal from the belt before it goes to the normal boilers/steamengines. Because often when I have power problems it starts with using more power than produced. Then the powernetwork gets unstable which causes the electricdrills to mine less coal which ends up in a vicious circle.

For sure you can do more complex redundancy when you reach T2, solar and accus. But in that early game I don't want to work with them because you need steel and batteries for it. Also I can't decide about the nuclear energy since I don't know how it will work. In every game I know nuclear power has a big downside like meltdown and stuff. In IRL nuclear power needs to be used to 100%, power supply is not allowed break to keep the cooling/water running which is also not allowed to break. Also I don't know what changes it will give to the powerusage order. Since the order is Solarpower>Steampower>Accus you allready need to do a complex switch to let your factory run with only solar/accus allday and have steampower as redundancy if something fails. I built one of thos switches...
Powerswitch solar and accu
Its not as complicated as you think. I also have such a configuration. It takes a total of 4 combinators, an accumulator, and a power switch to implement the basic form. The full structure like I have uses 12 combinators, but also does things like disconnects the power station from the grid if the factory is taking more power than it is producing for any reason and turns off the inserters if the coal has run out in order to try and preserve power for restarting as long as possible.
Powerswitch, 3 stage hysteresis.
Also, my power station has 15 boilers per bank of 10 engines instead of the usual 14. Boiler #15 in each bank has a burner inserter, which will self-fuel from the coal belt. Like so even in a completely stone-dead blackstart, once fuel makes its way down the belt boiler #15 will fire up and start the engines turning, generating power to drive the other 14 inserters in each bank. Like so the entire station raises itself from the dead in mere seconds.

Expanding on this capacity to account for the water intakes also needing fuel or electricity would be a trivial matter I think, in fact the only hard part will be making the bootstrap solution shut off when the main power is online.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by HammerPiano »

I think that is not a good idea that offshore pumps need electricity. If it needs power, you need to produce in boilers that need water, but you can't make water because you have no power...

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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel »

TLDR:

A large number of people want it to stay the way it is for simplicity, and a slightly larger number of people want it to be more "realistic" (in spite of the rest of the game).

If this is implemented, you'll annoy a lot of players. If it's not implemented, there's always mods. One day there will most likely even be a mod that makes the game more realistic in general.
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Re: Poll: Offshore Pump Should Need Energy

Post by Factoruser »

It requires a whole rearrangement of the technology tree...

First of all you should have electric motors which are also used for inserters, belts and pumps. Second, you should be able to build electric generators that can create electricity out of any burning material, but not as efficient and eco-friendly like boilers plus steam engines.

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