[0.13.17] Biters build too close to players structues

[Gotbread]

The same issue happend also with 0.13.16:

Biters build new bases too close to player structures. Sometimes they build new bases within tower range. They get attacked but still manage to make the base. They also spawn extremely close to your rails:

Train attack

factorio.png (4.14 MiB) Viewed 7755 times

There is no option to defend the train against this attack, and surrounding all rails with towers and/or walls is against the idea of rails. In earlier versions they kept a distance to the structures. They should
keep a minimum distance (2-3 fields) from the rails as well.

[TruePikachu]

This is not a bug, and they shouldn't attack rails if they aren't provoked by a player or military structure (and probably still not even then).

[Ntek]

It's a bug.

In my current game I have about 14 expansions (marathon) and half of my time goes to clean out bug nest that building over my rails and placing new locomotives for those that have been destroyed. It is not possible to automate that.

In my point of view the insect should not want to build nest over human structures OR it should be possible to arm the trains so that they could clean the rails up by themselves.

[Ntek]

Add a example:

The picture show a new bug nest that have been created by/on the rail just after I kill the one before.

In a wast rail-network its begin to be boring to always have to follow the rail back and forth to change locomotive clean out bug nest that have been created over the rail.

[Loewchen]

This was a deliberate change from the devs, you'll need to find a way to protect your structures including tracks.
The biter still need to "plant" new bases, so if you intercept the pioneers you can prevent that.

[Ntek]

I do think that the intention was good.

But in this case it have cripple the meaning to build rail then you have to protect it with walls and towers. A base.

In my case probably several thousand of them and it will still not help because of that the bug nest spawn to close to the tower, but just out of range. That leads to that they create an infinitive continued stream of bug to the tower. That have to be cleaned out manual. And if you have a large factory, that is all you do after a while.

[<NO_NAME>]

This was a deliberate change from the devs, you'll need to find a way to protect your structures including tracks.

But there is no good way to protect the tracks. Placing turrets all along the way, which can have thousands of tiles, is hardly a solution. It is too resource expensive and maintaining it is a nightmare. And we have no other method to protect trains.

The biter still need to "plant" new bases, so if you intercept the pioneers you can prevent that.

How am I supposed to intercept the pioneers? Do I have to watch the map all the time and hurry to destroy every pioneer which can be thousands of tiles away from me? When do I had time to plan and build my factory then?

[aober93]

Claim land by walling it off completely, and no biter will be able to even come close to your rails. Instead of walling the rails individual, this is for me a very comfortable solution because i can build inside the border without biters.
The way i expand is, building a new outpost not too far out of my border ideally near new ore fields. Then wall it out ,and even a small gap to your next outpost is ok because no biter will go thru.
If you have one outpost too many, raze it and recycle the resources. Of course overall you need many resources, but this is ok just increase production if you expand too fast.

[<NO_NAME>]

aober93's proposition to build tracks only inside walls of a base works, of course but I should note that is a valid tactic only for some layouts of base. Personally, I like to build outposts very far from the main base. I always looking for an unusually large ore or a place which is surrounded by a water, so I don't need build so much walls.

I have one idea which possibly can solve the problem. I understand that the previous version of spawner building AI was exploited by some players much too far, so the new AI is a must. But what about preventing natives from attack trains. For now, natives don't seem to attack trains that are far from players. I suppose that they do it only when train kills one of them. You can make a rule of it. To be specific:
1) Natives don't attack trains.
2) Natives can't see a player when it is inside a train.
3) Natives don't walk over tracks unless them have to. (Eg. pioneers or natives that currently attacking something can cross a railroad.)
That should fix the problem and doesn't interfere with any other element of the gameplay.

Someone could say that I can just clear terrain around railroads occasionally. That's true... for small bases. In later game I would have to do it all the time and I still couldn't prevent destroy trains because natives could attack very quickly after a new spawner appeared.

Someone else could ask why I need so long railroads. The answer is simple: creating rails and trains is one of most fun tasks in this game. An automaticly supply an outpost with all the required items is a very interesting challenge. The current change in AI just cripples the game.

[kovarex]

This is still how it works in vanilla? I was told that it was fixed ....

[<NO_NAME>]

This is still how it works in vanilla? I was told that it was fixed ....

Maybe it was fixed in 0.14. I am using 0.13.20.

[Ntek]

No is not fixed...

[Rseding91]

I don't consider this a bug. If you built rails right through biter territory would you expect them to just ignore everything happening that you did? Now the same applies for building rails and then the biters migrating around instead of a magical "oh we can't build bases here because there's a wooden box" that used to happen in 0.12.

[Xeteth]

Although I wouldn't classify this as a 'bug' per se I really do think that it needs to be tweaked for balance purposes. Combat is tedious at the best of times and trying to maintain train lines etc (especially when an attack occurs when you're miles away) is nothing short of infuriating and doesn't add anything to the gameplay.

I'm currently doing the whole 'turret-the-entire-mainline' thing and it's honestly a real bummer on the gameplay. If there was an alternative that allowed us to protect rails/trains/powerlines that added to gameplay I'd be all for it though, because the old 'victory-pole' technique was boring as all hell.

Just my two cents.

[mooklepticon]

I don't consider this a bug. If you built rails right through biter territory would you expect them to just ignore everything happening that you did? Now the same applies for building rails and then the biters migrating around instead of a magical "oh we can't build bases here because there's a wooden box" that used to happen in 0.12.

I agree with your logic, and y'all are the ones who determine whether this is a bug or not.

As the others have said, if this is intended behavior, then we don't really have good tools to deal with it. Yes, we can wall and turret our entire rail network, but that is an extremely unattractive solution. I'd wager that most factorians wouldn't find that fun (as I don't). I think that we need more tools for this.

Are the train grids planned to have more weapons than what the personal armor does? That would be a great solution. The rails aren't what needs protection, it's the trains. TRAIN GUNS!

[orzelek]

I don't consider this a bug. If you built rails right through biter territory would you expect them to just ignore everything happening that you did? Now the same applies for building rails and then the biters migrating around instead of a magical "oh we can't build bases here because there's a wooden box" that used to happen in 0.12.

I agree with your logic, and y'all are the ones who determine whether this is a bug or not.

As the others have said, if this is intended behavior, then we don't really have good tools to deal with it. Yes, we can wall and turret our entire rail network, but that is an extremely unattractive solution. I'd wager that most factorians wouldn't find that fun (as I don't). I think that we need more tools for this.

Are the train grids planned to have more weapons than what the personal armor does? That would be a great solution. The rails aren't what needs protection, it's the trains. TRAIN GUNS!

I'm patiently (who am I kidding ) waiting for what people do with vehicle modules. It seems that having trains armed wouldn't help 100% since biters can come when there is no train around.

One hint about defending of rails - you don't need 100% wall or line of turrets. It's enough to build turret "nests" in a way that makes their ranges overlap since once they shoot at biter they will get distracted and come to them.
This is much easier with mods that offfer long range turrets. Not sure how it would work in vanilla.

[Rythe]

This issue is kinda like Factorio mechanics painting themselves into a corner.

If you don't let biters build near player structures, then a box or bit of train track here and there becomes your most potent defensive structure.

If you do let biters build near player structures, then defenses become a massive chore, especially for train networks and outpost play.

Best solution I can think of is #1 here.

[InsaneFox]

One possible solution I see for this is if pioneers were scared off by incoming trains and possibly other vehicles. Such that if a group of biters or spitters is setting up camp too close to a railway, they would run off if a train were to come too close. Granted, the range at which trains would scare them off would need to be considerably greater than just the biter's detection range alone (to prevent a base from forming that will attack the rails once its members start wandering) This may still allow some cheesing for defenses, but it will take considerably more resources than the old random box or rail segment method.

[poma]

Or maybe allow trains to smash through biters and their nests, like they do in a trailer https://youtu.be/DR01YdFtWFI?t=1m27s

[Ntek]

I don't consider this a bug. If you built rails right through biter territory would you expect them to just ignore everything happening that you did? Now the same applies for building rails and then the biters migrating around instead of a magical "oh we can't build bases here because there's a wooden box" that used to happen in 0.12.

I agree with your logic, and y'all are the ones who determine whether this is a bug or not.

As the others have said, if this is intended behavior, then we don't really have good tools to deal with it. Yes, we can wall and turret our entire rail network, but that is an extremely unattractive solution. I'd wager that most factorians wouldn't find that fun (as I don't). I think that we need more tools for this.

Are the train grids planned to have more weapons than what the personal armor does? That would be a great solution. The rails aren't what needs protection, it's the trains. TRAIN GUNS!

I'm patiently (who am I kidding ) waiting for what people do with vehicle modules. It seems that having trains armed wouldn't help 100% since biters can come when there is no train around.

One hint about defending of rails - you don't need 100% wall or line of turrets. It's enough to build turret "nests" in a way that makes their ranges overlap since once they shoot at biter they will get distracted and come to them.
This is much easier with mods that offfer long range turrets. Not sure how it would work in vanilla.

I place groups of 8 laser-tower on each side of the rail so that they overlap in range. I have to repair and change destroyed tower all the time. Don´t play the game at moment, it became boring to just run around and repair the rail-way-system. Waiting for a bug-fix.