electric trains

[Deadly-Bagel]

I feel I need to point out when a coal train runs out of fuel you drop some coal in its engine. How would you do that with an electric train?

There are numerous other things to consider. To be efficient they would need to charge pretty fast (as unloading now is only a few seconds) which needs to be considered when thinking about energy storage and consumption. The more energy it runs on, the heavier the impact on a power network. Consider if you want the train to run for two minutes, that's two minutes' worth of whatever energy consumption you decide that is drained from your power network in ~10 seconds, maybe less.

And what of your further out stations? Perhaps an accumulator wagon is a solution but it would further contribute to the above problems.

Best approach may be something like a recharge station similar to a train stop, every so far along your track have a rail split off into a charge station and merge back up. When an electric train is running low on energy it pulls into the next station along its route. If powered, train stations themselves could perform the same function (or perhaps a charge station can be placed on the other side of the track) to keep up throughput, though do they still wait for a full charge?

This way the energy storage can be kept relatively low so as to spread out the drain on the power network, and it doesn't really limit them in any way compared to coal powered "diesel" engines.

ALTERNATIVE
Load batteries into trains with inserters, existing batteries need removing and can then be recharged and inserted into the next train. Trains have ~4 battery slots, depleting one at a time, can create different tier batteries and "lock" the slots so only that battery type can be inserted for trains with differing journey lengths. If a train runs out of power, just take a charged battery to it. Only real problem is not unloading the fresh batteries as well, so would need to be able to differentiate fully charged from used batteries to apply to inserter logic. Could function similarly to oil drums and exist in "Charged", "Used" and "Depleted" states.

Creates a lot of interesting logic and has several approaches. Replace batteries at every stop? Replace all batteries, or only depleted ones? Have charge stations mid-journey or build higher-tier batteries?

[Shadowcaster]

Is there any working code for inputting raw energy to a locomotive set with electricity as the fuel type?
And is there a way to get it to consume non-burnable items like batteries that don't have a "fuel" value?

[ssilk]

You're here in the suggestions forum and I suggest you to ask such questions in the modding discussions.

[aubergine18]

Cantenary (as depicted here) is best option IMO - allow rails to be upgraded to have cantenary, also provides visual cue as to which rails electric trains can use. Train engines would also be visibly electric due to the apparatus on top of train to draw power from the cantenary. Simplifies powering trains, but with the added risk of trains stopping if power runs out (would encourage players to get smart about how they deliver power to the tracks, eg. from dedicated power production).

Would facilitate sending power by cantenary to remote factory bases. Would allow red/green wire to be attached to cantenary poles. The poles themselves would have very limited power distribution to surrounding area (eg. 1 tile), their main purpose is to electrify the cantenary cables between the poles rather than power other structures along the tracks. User could easily wire from a cantenary pole to a normal electricity pole or substation if they want to power more area around the track.

From performance perspective, cantenary approach would also allow simplification of determining if rail is powered -- as long as one end of the cantenary is powered, the entire stretch of rail (assuming no break in the cantenary) would be considered powered (in effect, power would be determined at the rail block level rather than based on more complex processing of proximity to normal electric poles/substations).

Modders could add special types of cantenary - for example, with lights, or with signals, or booster stations (accumulators), etc.

The possibility to add batteries to engines would provide emergency backup should the train cross a stretch of track that doesn't have powered cantenary (or to overcome temporary power loss on the cantenary). Batteries would only charge when the train engine is stopped (eg. at a station or signal), but only if there is cantenary present when that happens.

[Harkonnen604]

+1. That will also solve problem of having to do double run to build an outpost - one to drop rails and the other to place power poles.

[Hermios]

Well, since I couldn't develop the idea myself
The idea : Develop electric trains!
Rails can be connected to power, and if a train is on it, it consumes electricity from it
Other point : Since rails can be connected to electricity, they can transmit it.
Rails can be connected to red and green circuits too!
Why : In my games, I always have satellite quarters, to mine resources. Then, a train collects resources and bring it to my headquarter. With electric/connected rails, no need to add electric poles.
Electric trains avoid to install energy loaders.

Variant : Trains can be both electric and diesel, or one type of each.
... PLEASE!!!

[ssilk]

Added to the other electric trains suggestions in viewtopic.php?f=80&t=17734 New types of vehicles (train, tank, car, plane, ship...)

[Chaubata]

You know that there was already a MOD doing nearly all of that?

5dim's - Trains

unfortunately 5dim seem not be interested to convert it to 0.13.

[mooklepticon]

You know that there was already a MOD doing nearly all of that?

5dim's - Trains

unfortunately 5dim seem not be interested to convert it to 0.13.

Who are you referring to in this super-old post?

What is "that" that you're referring to in this super-old post?

[ssilk]

What is "that" that you're referring to in this super-old post?

A reviver?

(sorry, this joke works much better in German)

[CentricArts]

A concept that I would like to see in the game is electronic trains to prevent having to use entire systems to implement coal into your ''diesel'' engine. (Personally I would prefer them to be just Steam engines) From there, you could use electronic poles next to your railway or some other form of system which implements electricity to your railway, much like how actual railways work in the real world. As the game generally tries to move you away from creating pollution by using other costly recourses to make solar panels and electronic furnaces, why not electronic trains?

Another side note to this as ''Diesel'' engines use up a lot of coal, I would like them to use up a lot more coal in order to make the system more expensive to run. Alongside that, they should also create a low amount of pollution in order for trains to become an aggravation point for aliens. With this in mind you need to actually spend more recourses in order to defend your railways. With the implementation of electronic railways in my original suggestion, you wouldn't require to protect your trains. So instead of having to spend recourses defending your railway and loading a ton of coal into your train, use more recourses in order to produce the electronic railway.

From there depending on what you want your railway to do you can decide if you want to use ''Diesel'' or electronic depending on the costs as electronic railways would become expensive for long distances but easier to protect and coal is good for short distances but hard to protect due to the difference in recourses required.

And electronic railways from steam ones is another technology, additionally another sense of progression within your factory and actually adds more management in your factory and make railways not as cheap as they currently are to maintain and create.

[aubergine18]

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/mknejp ?

[OdinYggd]

This kind of thing is often suggested, and I've brought it up myself a few times.

What would be practically ideal in my mind would be the addition of 2 steam engines for early and mid game, then in late game an electric becomes available

Initially when you research the railroad tech, you are given access to a Ten Wheeler steam engine. I'd recommend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_No._3 being the basis of the model- this is the engine that starred in Back to the Future III, along with many other classic westerns. It is literally the movie star engine, and would be quite recognizeable as the pattern. Implementation though, it only runs at perhaps 75 km/h max and is not strong enough to pull more than 1-2 cars at a time.

As the game progresses, you would unlock a much larger "Berkshire" locomotive, with capacities similar to the current diesel but a top speed of only 120km/h. For the model I would suggest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pere_Marquette_1225. Pere Marquette 1225 is the engine that inspired the polar express book, and was the basis for the engine in the movie. Designed for fast freight, a Berkshire would be a good fit for the needs of Factorio railways with its ability to handle speed and power quite easily, all while looking and sounding like a locomotive should.

Towards the end of the game though, your railways have become lengthy, and the need to provide coal to the engines complicates logistics. So a new tech would become available to electrify the rails, and support a high speed electric locomotive. Not only would this engine be able to carry as many as 6-8 cars vs the typical 4 of the current diesel, but it would be able to do so at speeds exceeding 250km/h and without requiring fuel logistics. I don't have a recommended design to use here, since in my mind steam is the eternal king of the rails, but I would suggest selecting a locomotive model that is highly recognizable.

[aubergine18]

A nice bestiary of rail (and other) vehicles can be found here: http://www.transportfever.com/game-info/vehicles/ (page takes forever to load, but once loaded you can click on Rail filter to see just the trains).

I'd like to see a small but "much faster than walking" early steam train to help player move around map via rail, possibly a Baldwin's Six-Wheels at 30 km/h, or Borsig at 40 km/h? IMO player transport would be a good way to introduce rail network prior to setting it up for resource transport.

For mid-game diesel, a EMD SD40-2 would be an iconic train to include. People would instantly recognise it from games like Train Fever, Sid Meier's Railroads, etc. An EMD GP 9 is another good iconic diesel locomotive.

For late game, something like a Class 185 which is diesel/electric hybrid, and fast speed with good traction, would benefit from being able to use both electrified tracks and standard tracks, enabling the player to use it while they complete their rail upgrades.

Once player has got all their rails upgraded, they could start using locomotives such as Class 103.1, EMD AEM-7 or HHP 8 which all have speeds around 200 km/h.

The length of locomotives could start small with early steam, elongate in diesel and hybrid era, and then start shrinking again with late electric. This would require some refactoring of train stations to reposition inserters, etc., it would require some strategising as to which rail networks to upgrade, what locomotives to use and so on. Ideally players would be using a mix of locomotives in late game, depending on track upgrades, available space and fuel, etc.

[CentricArts]

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/mknejp ?

I like the idea of this, but I feel like it's done poorly as you require having to use batteries instead of an electronic network around your train line in order to generate electricity for your trains. Trains don't really work like that in real life. you don't just put a generator on a train to keep recharging the batteries or just use a huge battery to power it for a period of time.

[CentricArts]

A nice bestiary of rail (and other) vehicles can be found here: http://www.transportfever.com/game-info/vehicles/ (page takes forever to load, but once loaded you can click on Rail filter to see just the trains).

I'd like to see a small but "much faster than walking" early steam train to help player move around map via rail, possibly a Baldwin's Six-Wheels at 30 km/h, or Borsig at 40 km/h? IMO player transport would be a good way to introduce rail network prior to setting it up for resource transport.

For mid-game diesel, a EMD SD40-2 would be an iconic train to include. People would instantly recognise it from games like Train Fever, Sid Meier's Railroads, etc. An EMD GP 9 is another good iconic diesel locomotive.

For late game, something like a Class 185 which is diesel/electric hybrid, and fast speed with good traction, would benefit from being able to use both electrified tracks and standard tracks, enabling the player to use it while they complete their rail upgrades.

Once player has got all their rails upgraded, they could start using locomotives such as Class 103.1, EMD AEM-7 or HHP 8 which all have speeds around 200 km/h.

The length of locomotives could start small with early steam, elongate in diesel and hybrid era, and then start shrinking again with late electric. This would require some refactoring of train stations to reposition inserters, etc., it would require some strategising as to which rail networks to upgrade, what locomotives to use and so on. Ideally players would be using a mix of locomotives in late game, depending on track upgrades, available space and fuel, etc.

This seems really wasteful just to get around slightly quicker early game. People probably just won't use that kind of system because it takes up tons of space, tons of recourses and only gives you a slight advantage over walking. You might as well just rush the engine research and make a car instead.

[ssilk]

Please understand the difference:
Electronic: Something complex, that works with electronic circuits, process signals etc. The circuit network is in my opinion electronic.
Electric: A machine, that works with electric power.

I fixed the thread title and added it to viewtopic.php?f=80&t=17734 New types of vehicles (train, tank, car, plane, ship...)

[mknejp]

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/mknejp ?

I like the idea of this, but I feel like it's done poorly as you require having to use batteries instead of an electronic network around your train line in order to generate electricity for your trains. Trains don't really work like that in real life. you don't just put a generator on a train to keep recharging the batteries or just use a huge battery to power it for a period of time.

As the maker of those mods I agree, although there are battery-driven locomotives they are usually special purpose like maintenance or construction trains where electricity supply is not (yet) present or disabled. Using batteries is the only way I managed to find that wouldn't significantly slow down the game. If the game had electrified rails then players could have the two alternatives to chose between batteries or direct supply, potentially one as an upgrade to the other or as alternatives where each has a benefit the other doesn't have.

[OdinYggd]

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/mknejp ?

I like the idea of this, but I feel like it's done poorly as you require having to use batteries instead of an electronic network around your train line in order to generate electricity for your trains. Trains don't really work like that in real life. you don't just put a generator on a train to keep recharging the batteries or just use a huge battery to power it for a period of time.

As the maker of those mods I agree, although there are battery-driven locomotives they are usually special purpose like maintenance or construction trains where electricity supply is not (yet) present or disabled. Using batteries is the only way I managed to find that wouldn't significantly slow down the game. If the game had electrified rails then players could have the two alternatives to chose between batteries or direct supply, potentially one as an upgrade to the other or as alternatives where each has a benefit the other doesn't have.

Would it be possible to make a plug-in hybrid train?

Take something similar to the existing diesel, but add the following:

1. The train has a large internal battery that is charged up while standing at the station.

2. On departure, it attempts to prioritize the battery. Moving in this mode, it produces no pollution.

3. When the battery reaches approximately 25% remaining, it will begin burning fuel if there is some in the slots. In this mode any energy not added to the train's momentum is instead used to charge the battery back up. The train produces pollution in this mode.

4. When the train is fuel-burning and the battery reaches 75%, the train stops burning fuel and again goes to all-electric pollution free propulsion. Like so it will minimize fuel consumption by recharging that last 25% using the station-provided power.

This would get you basically a plug in hybrid operation that would allow the simplified logistics of electric trains for short routes, while retaining the service range of the current fuel burning diesel that is necessary for routes too long to be served by batteries alone.

I still would rather ditch the diesel for steam, but a plug in hybrid might be an ideal mid-late game solution until such time that a way is found to properly electrify the rails without making the game miserable.

[CentricArts]

https://mods.factorio.com/mods/mknejp ?

I like the idea of this, but I feel like it's done poorly as you require having to use batteries instead of an electronic network around your train line in order to generate electricity for your trains. Trains don't really work like that in real life. you don't just put a generator on a train to keep recharging the batteries or just use a huge battery to power it for a period of time.

As the maker of those mods I agree, although there are battery-driven locomotives they are usually special purpose like maintenance or construction trains where electricity supply is not (yet) present or disabled. Using batteries is the only way I managed to find that wouldn't significantly slow down the game. If the game had electrified rails then players could have the two alternatives to chose between batteries or direct supply, potentially one as an upgrade to the other or as alternatives where each has a benefit the other doesn't have.

Would it be possible to make a plug-in hybrid train?

Take something similar to the existing diesel, but add the following:

1. The train has a large internal battery that is charged up while standing at the station.

2. On departure, it attempts to prioritize the battery. Moving in this mode, it produces no pollution.

3. When the battery reaches approximately 25% remaining, it will begin burning fuel if there is some in the slots. In this mode any energy not added to the train's momentum is instead used to charge the battery back up. The train produces pollution in this mode.

4. When the train is fuel-burning and the battery reaches 75%, the train stops burning fuel and again goes to all-electric pollution free propulsion. Like so it will minimize fuel consumption by recharging that last 25% using the station-provided power.

This would get you basically a plug in hybrid operation that would allow the simplified logistics of electric trains for short routes, while retaining the service range of the current fuel burning diesel that is necessary for routes too long to be served by batteries alone.

I still would rather ditch the diesel for steam, but a plug in hybrid might be an ideal mid-late game solution until such time that a way is found to properly electrify the rails without making the game miserable.

This is a really cool idea.

Maybe make the current coal based engines actually steam engines, diesel require oil and hybrid or electric run from electricity. But as the backup for the hybrid, use up oil or coal.

If you didn't scrap the entire diesel engine asset and just make it require oil instead of coal. And as the developers are potentially implementing an oil tanker car, you obviously require a new pump like the one they already shown in the friday facts. You could just use the new pump to implement oil into the diesel engines as their use is moving liquids around and putting liquids in and out of things.

And to charge the electric trains, you could just use the same system but with electricity instead. So just something that connects to the train when it stops. This will require a similar asset to the diesel engine but more cleaner like the solar panel.

Then obviously the steam train will work like the current diesel and just use a different asset to make it actually a steam engine instead of this so called diesel.

So for people who have oil to burn but want to make their trains faster, they can use diesel trains with a heavy pollution factor. Electricity for those who don't want to burn nonrenewable resources in return for no pollution. However, the train would be slower and not as strong towards pulling tons of wagons and the steam engine creates pollution, but light pollution unlike the diesel.