Electric energy

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Deadly-Bagel
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Re: Electric energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Thu Sep 01, 2016 1:55 pm

Hannu wrote:I like water tubings and also lakes and would never choose waterless world.
So? That's how -you- play the game, every player has their preference. I like lots of water in my worlds too but my next playthrough (waiting for 0.15) I think I'll have a small patch in starting area only and a modular base design so I have to ship water out to my oil factories and such and increase the logistical challenge.
Hannu wrote:Steam is also medium which most high powered power plants use (except some gas turbines). Others are too futuristic or fictive.
Okay so while we're at it boilers and furnaces should consume 20 coal at a time, take 10 minutes to start up and not 'pause' when not doing anything, and solar panels need to provide 5% of the power they do now because that's how "real world" works. Also make it earth because space travel isn't currently possible and remove shields (in fact power armour altogether) also engineer now needs to eat, drink ans sleep and shall I go on? This isn't the real world, we're playing as an engineer a thousand years ahead of our best scientists whose space ship crash landed on an inhabited planet. Personally I could care less how we convert radiation to electricity, I'm more interested in a new challenge rather than just plugging more into an old one.
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Re: Electric energy

Post by Noiser » Mon Sep 05, 2016 10:01 am

My first activity in this forum, Whoop Whoop!

So, i have a proposal for the nuclear power expansion:
(look at the picture (download with rightclick) to understand the production chain)

New Items:
- Uranium ore (no radiation)

- Depleted uranium (low radiation)
- Enriched uranium (medium radiation)
- High enriched uranium (high radiation)
- Extreme enriched uranium (extreme high radiation)

- Depleted nuclear fuel (low radiation, 2 in game days burning time, not stackable)
- Enriched nuclear fuel (medium radiation, 5 days burning time, not stackable)
- High enriched nuclear fuel (high radiation, 15 days burning time, not stackable)

- Wasted depleted nuclear fuel (low radiation, not stackable)
- Wasted enriched nuclear fuel (medium radiation, not stackable)
- Wasted hich enriched nuclear fuel (high radiation, not stackable)
- Nuclear waste (medium radiation, not stackable)

- Uranium ammunition (no radiation)
- Nuclear artillery ammunition (low radiation)

- Heavy Water

New placable objects:
- (Nuclear) Processing plant (with 2 outputs)
- Nuclear plant
- Disposal chest (Bigger than a steel chest, but with the same capacity; creates radiation/pollution scaled by the content)

Science:
- red "circle": >>Nuclear Power I<<
- brown "circle": >>Nuclear Weapons<<
- the rest: >>Nuclear Power II<<

Notes:
- All four slots in a nuclear plant must be filled to heat up the water, if there are only three or less slots filled it will consume electricity (3->750kW, 2->500kW, ...).
If the energy consumption can't be ensured, a heat bar in the nuclear plant will quickly fill up and when it's full the plant will explode (much area damage and pollution).
(temperature control via circuit network? ->emergency accumulators)
- Radiation can be defined for it self or in pollution, so biters will focus on disposal chests and try to destroy it. If a disposal chest (with nuclear waste in it) is destroyed, biters in a
scaled (by the content) radius will mutate. Those biters should be very hard to kill. For nuclear plants a similar solution is imaginable.
- The player will suffer damage, if radiation emitting materials are in his inventory.
- Uranium ore should be rare and take more time to mine than other ores.

- Small "nuclear batteries" could be an energy source for armor (electric vehicles? ->train, car)

Some Math:
300 uranium ore = 60 depleted nuclear fuels / 4 slots = 15 loads * 2 days per load = 30 days of energy production
300 uranium ore = 12 enriched nuclear fuels / 4 slots = 3 loads * 5 days per load = 15 days of energy production
300 uranium ore = 8 depleted nuclear fuels / 4 slots = 2 loads * 15 days per load = 30 days of energy production
300 uranium ore = 2 nuclear artillery ammunitions

The first technology (Nuclear Power I) will give you the possibility to do something with uranium at all. But the second tech (Nuclear Power II) will give you much more efficiency.
If you are using depleted uranium you produce less waste, but high enriched uranium is partially recyclable, allows strong artillery ammunition and doesn't need heavy water.

End note:
I tried to make a simplified factorio-like version of the nuclear industry. But this is just a proposal, so feel free to correct, change, cut or expand it like you wish.
Redo the math, add new processes, change costs, cut the prduction chain, whatever you like.


Greetings from germany!
Noiser
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Lap
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Re: Electric energy

Post by Lap » Tue Sep 06, 2016 1:10 am

For nuclear power I really like the puzzle minigame called Reactor Incremental (also present in Industrial Craft for Minecraft).
Players build small components like fuel cells, coolant, etc, and it becomes puzzle mini game. Fuel cells produce electricity, but they also produce heat. Too much heat and the reactor will need to shutdown or the items will break (or the reactor explode!). This heat can be mitigated by building cooling vents and such. The thing that makes this interesting is that fuel cells that are placed adjacent to each other produce electricity more efficiently, but they produce MUCH more heat. This lets players build reactor designs that can be very fuel efficient and powerful, but possibly dangerous, or go for less efficient, safer options.

For factorio it might make sense to build a large reactor building with an equipment_grid accessed just like the modular armor. The gird based minigame looks something like this:

Image

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Re: Electric energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:26 am

Huh... that's actually pretty neat. As an expandable solution, you could also have a system where placing reactors next to each other combines the grid so you have more room to make a more efficient design.

Also if a building is removed, or destroyed in an attack, it would remove that section of grid and everything in it potentially causing the rest of the power plant (or sections of it) to overheat and explode if the reactor is active.

It's new, innovative, and coupled with a logistic challenge to build (and maybe supply?) the components and fuel cells this is the coolest suggestion I've seen yet.
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Re: Electric energy

Post by fod » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:45 am

Align wrote:Honestly I think we should just skip fission and go straight for fusion.
I liked the ideas you gave, but do not be confused. To produce fusion energy, you still need fuel. And as of know, fusion technology has still in mind the use of steam engines.

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Re: Electric energy

Post by fod » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:47 am

Lap wrote:For nuclear power I really like the puzzle minigame called Reactor Incremental (also present in Industrial Craft for Minecraft).
That's cool mate. It would be nice to have it. I actually do that on my job :P.

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Re: Electric energy

Post by fod » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:51 am

Noiser wrote:My first activity in this forum, Whoop Whoop!

So, i have a proposal for the nuclear power expansión...
Nice job. I think though that this is very similar to something I saw in an older post.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5&p=196808#p196808

Anyhow, good job still.

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Re: Electric energy

Post by FioMaestro » Fri Sep 16, 2016 12:00 pm

Well.. after launching the first rocket into space, I have realized that the lil'oh satellite orbiting the planet is doing a Big Fat NOTHING!
Today, (after 215 hours of play and 33 launched rockets) I have subscribed to this lovely forum and I hope I can be of any use for the further development of this awesome game!
I am at sea most of my contract time, so.. internet connection is a luxury on bulk carrier vessels. Lack of internet connection is the reason for signing up so late.
Anyway.. Why don't we put these satellites to some use? Revealing the map was my first thought, but also, a solar array for clean energy production would be just as great!
Imagine that a group of some mutated, strong, radioactive, determined native insects are overrunning a major power production area of your perimeter! (OMFG!!) It wouldn't hurt to have some extra power available to start over, or power some laser defenses, or.. whatever you might need power for.
And also, those satellites are safe and sound up in space. ;)

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Re: Electric energy

Post by Noiser » Wed Sep 21, 2016 2:42 pm

Nice job. I think though that this is very similar to something I saw in an older post.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5&p=196808#p196808

Anyhow, good job still.
hey fod,
thank you for the esteem, i appreciate your work too.
But it's just two afternoons of reading articles and draw something with paint. When i saw your post, my "work" was nearly done. So please don't think i was copying your work. I think there is a clearly similiarity because we both tried to make an illustration of the reality for factorio and support the developers. :)


A word to Wind Energy

I was always bothered, that water pumps don't need electricity. Obviously to ensure an easy water supply for steam engines, without previous energy production.
If there would be a small (wooden) windmill (Materials: 2 iron, 20 wood, 3 copper), that "problem" could be solved.
There could also be a big (modern) windmill (30 Steel, 6 copper, 15 plastic), producing more energy.

Windmills should have a maximum output just below solar panels (10kW for small windmill, 50kW for big wm?) and be variable (0-10/50kW; dependable from wind). So it would be ideal for outposts or if you don't want to build an extra power line.

I didn't read the full thread, so excuse me, if someone had the same proposal before. ^^


Greetings,
Noiser

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Re: Electric energy

Post by mexmer » Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:02 pm

Noiser wrote: I was always bothered, that water pumps don't need electricity. Obviously to ensure an easy water supply for steam engines, without previous energy production.
i was wondering about same thing.

i think, starting water pumps should be powered by burner engine, and should not require copper (no wiring required).
then later you can replace them with electric ones.

they should probly take 2x1 space - burner pump + hose

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Re: Electric energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:14 pm

There is a topic in suggestions for this, and it's not going to happen. Water pumps aren't exactly a huge feature of Factorio, most players only use them briefly for steam engines then one pump will happily supply all your oil processing. I think only once I made more than three pumps. Further splitting this down is just going to make things more tedious for no real gameplay benefit.

There are mods that do this sort of thing if you want to go that route.
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Re: Electric energy

Post by mexmer » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:18 pm

Deadly-Bagel wrote:There is a topic in suggestions for this, and it's not going to happen. Water pumps aren't exactly a huge feature of Factorio, most players only use them briefly for steam engines then one pump will happily supply all your oil processing. I think only once I made more than three pumps. Further splitting this down is just going to make things more tedious for no real gameplay benefit.

There are mods that do this sort of thing if you want to go that route.
point is, that you have burner drills, boilers burning coal, furnaces burning coal, even burner inserters (sic), but then you have magic pumps that can pump water without using energy.

there is such thing called consistency, and water pumps are not consistent with rest. not to mention, why they need copper wiring and circuit board, which will not work without power.

https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?title=Offshore_pump

to quote wiki
The offshore pump itself requires no power to operate. (This is because, otherwise the game might fall into a serious deadlock: No coal, no electricity, no water...)
but this can be avoided by having burner powered pump, right? no magic involved.

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Re: Electric energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:38 pm

Potentially it generates power from tide and water flow and uses some super advanced technology to get the water to move itself into the pipe (thus why it only half fills the pipe).
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Re: Electric energy

Post by mexmer » Mon Sep 26, 2016 4:51 pm

Deadly-Bagel wrote:Potentially it generates power from tide and water flow and uses some super advanced technology to get the water to move itself into the pipe (thus why it only half fills the pipe).
i want to stop dwelling in this. but seriously, you don't believe what you wrote, do you?

ever seen tidal electric generator? those things are huge and work only in certain places, not on small patches of water, like you have in factorio :lol:

anyways, you can cut wood at start (and you do, to feed your burner drill), so there is no deadlock involved in using burner powered pump, although if you have seen that thing in reality, it's quite huge, unless you make it using steam, instead of hot air (but that will require water :mrgreen: )

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Re: Electric energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:10 am

Sure if you were trying to power the pump from tidal energy but you're just powering the circuit which requires a pittance. And look at the size of the offshore pump compared to the Small Pump, or even the new pump going in. It's got a pretty big footprint in comparison, and again we're talking super advanced technology here.

If you want it so badly there's probably a mod for it, or you could write one. Most players, including myself and the devs, think this would only complicate things without adding to the gameplay.
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Re: Electric energy

Post by mexmer » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:11 am

Deadly-Bagel wrote:Sure if you were trying to power the pump from tidal energy but you're just powering the circuit which requires a pittance. And look at the size of the offshore pump compared to the Small Pump, or even the new pump going in. It's got a pretty big footprint in comparison, and again we're talking super advanced technology here.

If you want it so badly there's probably a mod for it, or you could write one. Most players, including myself and the devs, think this would only complicate things without adding to the gameplay.
you know, you not making sense now, right?
how your "super advanced technology" matches with coal powered boiler?

anyways, further discussion on this theme is on other thread, so i'm stopping here.

only rational reason to not change to burner powered pump, is manpower involved in such change (programming/graphic art), and that it will break already established pace of game.

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Re: Electric energy

Post by Deadly-Bagel » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:30 am

That's why I'm against it, in a normal game I don't build more than three pumps. If you add another type of pump or force me to thread coal through my oil production to the pump that supplies it it's just going to be annoying, not any more interesting.

The only argument for it seems to be "realism" which is all explained away with "magic future technology".
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Re: Electric energy

Post by Noiser » Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:44 pm

I understand your point of an unnecessary coal pump. Even that an electrical pump isn't that useful.
But from the point of consistency it should be given. Also you need to watch the level of your power supply, when you use coal or nuclear power. If the water supply decreases energy does too, so you need to have a reliable water supply ((coal pump)? or eletrical pump with windmill).

The energy infrastructure could be a challenging branch of gameplay.
The proposed minigame for the nuclear powerplant could be a good way to implement that.

Greetings,
Noiser

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Re: Electric energy

Post by S1R1U5 » Sun Nov 27, 2016 8:55 pm

I want to point out that the "boilers " don't have a particular code for their own entetie and how they work which makes life more impossible to modders and also could difficult the develop of future ideas for steam usage other than energy.
For example im trying to use as a base the ofshore water pump as the base of a mod that im trying to make so i can create better boilers and the steam it's use for ore processing and also and improved energy producttion system.

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Re: Electric energy

Post by Bizobinator » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:08 pm

A thought I had while reading some of the FFFs about nuclear power. I feel like it's a bit... clunky? Having to have the nuclear reactor feed into the burners. Why not change it so that both the burners & nuclear reactors produce steam? & the steam fluid then feeds into either steam engines or turbines?

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