Nuclear Power from a Nuclear Engineer

[Fushigidane]

To me the most important thing to include when adding nuclear power is waste managment. The difficulty is to make it possible to fully automate it while making it interesting. One idea is to have special locations on the map where you can build repositories for permanent disposal. Ideally putting the waste in chests and destroying them would be impossible but that might be difficult to execute well, it should at least be limited to a short term solution. To prevent running around with highly radioactive waste without overcomplicating things it might be best to just have the reactor require copper plates and make it output copper casks. Hopefully there is a better solution but with repositories it would also be possible to add waste managment to other production chains.

The part about slow startup and reactor poisons is something I would like to see as well. I think the easiest way to implement it is to just make nuclear reactors increase power at a very slow rate while allowing power decreases at any rate. That should be enough to balance it against other power sources because you're going to need something else to deal with fluctuations. Power decreasing over time is neither realistic nor good for gameplay imo. As long as you can reach criticality you can produce as much power as the reactor geometry and coolant flow can handle . It also risks making it too complex to power your factory with nuclear and then people will just use solar instead. For the same reason I think refueling should be possible while the reactor is running.

Decay heat is not so interesting to model imo because water supply is so reliable in Factorio. If they add water pumps that require power but that can be built anywhere that might change. The problem then is to make the punishment meaningful. I guess it could start damaging everything around the reactor or something but to make it realistic it would also have to simulate how much spent fuel is in the reactor and how old it is.

The idea with thorium and U233 sounds pretty cool from a gameplay perspective but I really dislike the idea of U233 just appearing when you process thorium because it makes no sense from a realism perspective. Thorium would also be much less useful for warfare so uranium gets my vote. Something similar could be accomplished by using a uranium based breeder reactor that would require enriched uranium to start but then you would get more fissile material from processing the waste so that you only need natural uranium after.

As for the weapon aspect I hope uranium ammo only becomes available for vehicle based weapons and that it's used to give vehicle combat some love because you need a lot of propellant to make use of the high density.

[Rhamphoryncus]

The challenge begins when you want 80-100% nuke power. Bases consume a varying amount of juice, which nukes would hate. At that point you need all sorts of things to keep your energy stable and happy.

All you need is a pile of accumulators. You wouldn't even notice nuclear has a slow response.

[bobucles]

Ultimately the new power system all boils down to designing puzzles.

So far I haven't seen a satisfactory set up for the "waste disposal" puzzle. Right off the bat the player can subvert it by using regular item destruction tricks. Using some kind of disposal zone means an endless battle of expansion to unload new waste. can't be automated. Disposal map features ultimately limit the players nuke output just like oil spots. Yuck.

Fuel processing is more or less the same puzzle as any other production chain in factorio. You can make a hard chain but it's not anything new.

[bobucles]

The puzzles I suggested offer nice ways to tie multiple game tools together. Starting out is "easy" because it works with steam and solar and accus to absorb changes in demand. As the player demands more they are pushed into using the new electric tools. Switches to control energy demand, sensors to detect energy usage, and even combinators to deal with extreme setups. The difficulty is only as high as you are willing to go with nuke power.

One of the big puzzles IRL is making sure that nuke energy gets used up. They can't just speed up or slow down, the fissible material is naturally always active in some way. "Too much energy" is a nice puzzle that definitely can add something new to factorio.

All you need is a pile of accumulators. You wouldn't even notice nuclear has a slow response.

Would that really work? Even if the accus absorb the difference, you are still losing resources every time a plant fails. Dunking reactor fuel is no way to run a factory.

[Rhamphoryncus]

If the interface is simple you throttle down when the accumulators hit 75% and throttle up when they hit 25%. A more complicated interface just changes how and when you do the throttling. You should never hit 100% or 0%.

Same as backup steam actually.

[bobucles]

That could certainly be enough to take care of things. Some potential penalties could include losing fuel from the shutdown or warm up process (maybe you need to re assemble the core or something). If warming up takes a day or so then you would need an ABSURD number of accus to survive the down time. Probably better to try another way.

[afk2minute]

just braindead copy paste solar farm, and throw away nuclear if it will be very complicating and not reliable without some mad combinator setup.
Thats how players will deal with it.

[bobucles]

I'm not so sure about that. If players can crank out 30-50% nuke power without thinking very hard, then it is a very successful power source. If players are doing 100% nuke power just as easily as 20%, then there is a real risk of making every other option obsolete. That is as important a consideration as anything else.

Using combinators and switches to go BEYOND is just that. It's a reward for players who put a lot of work into their power system.

Most factories consume a considerable amount of minimal power, especially when beacons and radars get into the mix. It should be no problem to have a strong cheap source of energy to keep your base online.

The idea I'm working with is that a nuclear source of power is fairly cheap to run and has a high yield, but you have to USE it to earn it. If you can't, that's what the other options are for.

[afk2minute]

I'm not so sure about that. If players can crank out 30-50% nuke power without thinking very hard, then it is a very successful power source. If players are doing 100% nuke power just as easily as 20%, then there is a real risk of making every other option obsolete.

Well, im my opinion power in main factory should be mainly produced by steam or some other source like nuclear power.
Solar panels and accumulators are for isolated "100% no fail systems". If we would have some pumps in nuclear plant i will power them separatly with solar panels, that will make it non failing which is good to prevent positive loop, where if energy fails it fails even more because pumps are not working.

Solar panels are good for critical sections of your factory, but other factory sections should be provided with other sources imo.

Sorry for my bad engish i hope you can understand it.

And yes, im fine that there will be no more that huge solar farms, i dont like them.

[afk2minute]

Just make fuel consumption always the same rate, no matter has it load or no, that will solve your problem with no need of these puzzles and mad combinators.
I like combinators, they are fun, but sorry, i dont want nuclear power be thrown away

Also can i ask a question, how many tiles should a 500 MW plant be in size in your opinion?

[bobucles]

Just make fuel consumption always the same rate, no matter has it load or no, that will solve your problem with no need of these puzzles and mad combinators.

This is a nice way to encourage players to be efficient with their fuel. Whether or not you use the energy, the fuel consumption remains the same. But there is a MAJOR difference between a system that can stress out/shut down, and a system that can't. A system that doesn't shut down can be simply blueprinted across the map for all your GW needs.

Say your network always uses 5GW, sometimes 9GW, and peaks with lasers at 20GW. If the system doesn't stress out, you just set up 20GW of nuke power and forget it.

A system that can stress out requires alternate energy to provide the odds and ends. So you can set up 5GW of nuke power without any problems. You need some level of automation to get the 9GW of nuke power going, and it becomes a real mess to reach 20GW. You're better off with solar/accumulators or something to fill in those peaks.

Obviously since such a system needs to be highly rewarding to be worth the effort of going into it.

[afk2minute]

Just make fuel consumption always the same rate, no matter has it load or no, that will solve your problem with no need of these puzzles and mad combinators.

This is a nice way to encourage players to be efficient with their fuel. Whether or not you use the energy, the fuel consumption remains the same. But there is a MAJOR difference between a system that can stress out/shut down, and a system that can't. A system that doesn't shut down can be simply blueprinted across the map for all your GW needs.

Say your network always uses 5GW, sometimes 9GW, and peaks with lasers at 20GW. If the system doesn't stress out, you just set up 20GW of nuke power and forget it.

A system that can stress out requires alternate energy to provide the odds and ends. So you can set up 5GW of nuke power without any problems. You need some level of automation to get the 9GW of nuke power going, and it becomes a real mess to reach 20GW. You're better off with solar/accumulators or something to fill in those peaks.

Obviously since such a system needs to be highly rewarding to be worth the effort of going into it.

Yes, thats exactly what im saying, if i have to build 11 GW of solar power to cover my peaks, i will just throw away nuclear 9 GW and build 9 GW of solar.
Until its much more cheap (but who thinks of cheap if you need 20 GW) or compact (is it with all that chains of waste disposal and enrichment?).

Just look at steam power.
Actually its quite more compact than solar power (compare some 60 MW block of solar with 60 MW block of solid fuel steam, rows of 30 steam engines are possible).
You can feed it with not that much solid fuel (and oil is infinite resource, you really need not that much to power 1-2 GW, i tried once, thats not 20 GW, sure, but i cant imagine going to factory this size on my computer ups will drop to something close to zero). Its actually reliable (specially if u do failsafe solar grid for refineries etc)/ But most people use solar. Why? Because they dont want to bother with all that "provide-water-belt fuel-see if fuel enough" thing. They just build solar panels. Mindless, efficient, 0 maintance cost.

So here is my question what reward do you provide (apart from "achievment" "my nuclear plant works") in your system of "stressing" power plants if they are not reliable power sources and you NEED solar panels as an additional source (and it needs to give even more power than thee main grid in your example)? What will hold players from throwing away nuclear in that case and go full solar?

Ill say my opinion once more - every power source should serve its DIFFERENT purpose and "abuse" their advantages...

[Fushigidane]

With disposal areas I was thinking something with unlimited capacity but that only exists away from the starting area. It forces you to deal with the waste without being overly difficult/complicated.

As far as solar power is concerned I wish it was limited to daytime power only. That would make it so much easier to balance the power sources.

[vipm23]

So here is my question what reward do you provide (apart from "achievment" "my nuclear plant works") in your system of "stressing" power plants if they are not reliable power sources and you NEED solar panels as an additional source (and it needs to give even more power than thee main grid in your example)? What will hold players from throwing away nuclear in that case and go full solar?

Ill say my opinion once more - every power source should serve its DIFFERENT purpose and "abuse" their advantages...

If we're using Solyx's example, excess U-233 could be used to make nuclear weapons, or radioactive isotopes for other processes

In that case, thorium reactors could be used to make useful stuff in addition to power. Which could make it worth having to micromanage a bit more.

[BeCurieUs]

This isn't unique to thorium, we make medical isotopes using uranium test reactors all the time. Most thorium talking points are usually wildly bombastic. Back in the start of the thread we were talking about using a different kind of reactor to make, perhaps, blue science. Perhaps even make fission the blue science route. Like you HAVE to do some kind of nuclear to get blue, even if it is only making a test reactor and mutating some stuff. Dunno, could be neat. Probably not best idea, but it is something!

For disposal I was thinking some kind of building that can store it. If you don't put it in said building, it will generate pollution. So putting it in a box and making it go boom would result in a massive increase in pollution. Maybe even a building you have to keep cooled with water? (you don't need to do this with dry casks normally, but this is a game).

For balancing some of the tediousness of nuclear, I was thinking that it just outputs a crazy amount of power compared to, say, coal. So you have all this ramp up you have to do on the front and back sides, but man, is it worth it. Solar is more piecemeal and something you still might do along with nuclear in some instances, maybe for more remote things as mentioned above, or just to complement nuclear rather that building an entire new plant. Could be neat, dunno, would need to muck around with the idea this weekend. Maybe start plugging in some actual numbers, mess around with the mod at the start of the thread and see how well it stands up to some of these suggestions here.

Thanks yall, fun thread so far, lots to chew on. Back to the books here!

[Lord_lammington]

[Removed]

[Koub]

[Koub] Merged new topic into existing one. I feel the discussion on "the nuclear we imagine for 0.14" should if possible remain in the same thread. Tell me wrong if you think I am.

[afk2minute]

So here is my question what reward do you provide (apart from "achievment" "my nuclear plant works") in your system of "stressing" power plants if they are not reliable power sources and you NEED solar panels as an additional source (and it needs to give even more power than thee main grid in your example)? What will hold players from throwing away nuclear in that case and go full solar?

Ill say my opinion once more - every power source should serve its DIFFERENT purpose and "abuse" their advantages...

If we're using Solyx's example, excess U-233 could be used to make nuclear weapons, or radioactive isotopes for other processes

In that case, thorium reactors could be used to make useful stuff in addition to power. Which could make it worth having to micromanage a bit more.

Not bonuses should drive you into building reactor, but its capability of producing power.
We are talking about "Nuclear power" not "nuclear warfare".

Ill try to make my own list of what i want and dont want to see in nuclear power.

And i know whats going to be in my "do not want list" first - special radiation suits. You are in power armor + space suit.What else do you want. If radiation is so high that it doesnt help you need to hide in a bunker not wear some "suit".

[Woodmn]

TL:DR for all the responses but I liked you idea. Especially for finding the uranium. Maybe have it so that you use radiography (or a geiger counter/whatever) to detect uranium bodies. You would then need to (this is probably throwing realism out the window but whatever) build a sort of ground penetrating radar. It would function in a similar way to the normal radar but with a much smaller scanning area and would only detect underground uranium deposits (possibly allowing for extra underground oil wells to be discovered that when discovered generate a well on the surface that you can then tap). This would then leave a sort of indicator on the surface/your map of the size of the 'ore body' (I am just going to refer to it as that from here on). You can then place one of your acid based ore extractors somewhere on the ore body to extract your uranium powder. With extractors only able to service with high efficiency a smallish area around it, meaning that uranium in the ore body on tiles far away from it will be almost untouched while ore near it will decrease more rapidly. If you place an extractor a few squares off the body then it will not extract anything, requiring the ground penetrating radar to scan the area if you want maximum efficiency/extraction without having to build loads of extractors to find the edges in a more minesweeperesq approach.
Just my two cents but your idea of another underground layer could have a load of use for late game resource extraction.

TL:DR, Underground uranium version of current ore spawning mechanics but with more acid and larger harvesting areas that you cant see without a new building.

[bobucles]

Part 3 - The waste

The Reactor produces waste that can only be barreled and placed somewhere. the barrels may be loaded onto trains and deposited somewhere in the world. creating high amounts of pollution where it is FOREVER. Furthermore , the more radioactive waste / reactors the player is exposed to the higher the levels of radiation can occur.

I see this idea all over the place. While it has SOME real world counterpart, like, 60 years ago, it just doesn't apply today. Modern reactors burn just about everything and THEN some. New reactors today can burn the waste from the old reactors. The whole idea is a relic of the ancient world.

In game, there are no good mechanics to deal with item waste. You can't just pile it up forever. It's no fun to force players to run 2 miles out, clearing biters, just to plant a thousand chests and then shotgun them. If you process the waste into useful material, then it's just another part of the production chain and requires no real storage.