Is the jump from science pack 2 to 3 too large?

[Align]

Science pack 1 has the player get familiar with basic automation - mines leading to smelters leading to assembly machines leading to labs
Science pack 2 requires more complex chains to be established, particularly the inserters, but it's not a huge jump.
Science pack 3 has steel, which is odd since steel is relatively easy to make, and smart inserters, which feel about right in complexity increase, but also advanced circuits and batteries - both of which require almost the entire oil industry to be set up.

Requiring oil in some way makes sense at this point, if only to ensure the player starts getting familiar with the oil industry, but the way it is seems too extreme.

Straying into Suggestions territory, but what if another science pack level was introduced? Presumably a silver color like the stack filter inserter, it'd become the new science pack 4, with the old alien artifacts one bumped up to 5. It'd be more complex than science pack 3, but to go along with this addition would be a change to pack 3 to be simpler - perhaps needing steel, smart inserters, and solid fuel. Bonus points if we also get solid fuel made out of crude oil so it can be made in an inefficient way to start, but get more efficient as the player gets used to the oil industry.

Adjustments would be needed for the tech tree, such as making some techs that only require packs 1 & 2 need the new pack 3; probably robot tech, since those require oil to make anyway. And of course some high level techs require the new pack 4 instead of the old pack 4, and some end-game techs requiring all 5 packs.

[5thHorseman]

I think an argument could be made to make Science 2 a bit harder, not to make 3 easier. Though to answer this with my gut I'd say no. The jump is not too large and feels about right to me.

With Science 4 being laughably easy to make (in recipe), science 3 should be among the harder things in the game to construct.

[Zeblote]

With Science 4 being laughably easy to make (in recipe), science 3 should be among the harder things in the game to construct.

Maybe science 4 should also be more than "put artifacts in an assembler"

[5thHorseman]

With Science 4 being laughably easy to make (in recipe), science 3 should be among the harder things in the game to construct.

Maybe science 4 should also be more than "put artifacts in an assembler"

I'd go for that. Leave 2 alone, make 3 a little easier, and make 4 require artifacts AND oil? I'd like to see it first but sure, I think that could work.

[DaveMcW]

Science 4 being laughably easy to make (in recipe)

Science 4 is the only research that kills you if you try to produce it without enough resources.

[Zeblote]

Science 4 being laughably easy to make (in recipe)

Science 4 is the only research that kills you if you try to produce it without enough resources.

But if you do have enough resources, you can take one trip to get enough of it for all research that is left and forget about it.

[noname42]

I think science pack 3 is ok because the only real new thing is the whole oil processing (steel can be researched even with red science and smart inserters are just regular inserters with a few more circuits.
Science pack 4 should cost something like
1x Alien artifact
2x robot frame
5x processing unit
3x explosive rocket
gives 5 alien packs

[BlakeMW]

I think the jump from 2 to 3 is fine. I like that it creates a clear "higher tier" of technology. And a nice thing is that you can easily semi-hand craft small numbers of blue beakers for critical techs. For example if you want to get the Tank or Advanced Oil Processing quickly then you can easily hand craft the filter inserters and throw together a simple setup to make the other components and blue beakers.

[bobucles]

I think an argument could be made to make Science 2 a bit harder, not to make 3 easier. Though to answer this with my gut I'd say no. The jump is not too large and feels about right to me.

With Science 4 being laughably easy to make (in recipe), science 3 should be among the harder things in the game to construct.

This contradiction says it all. Science 3 has to be too difficult, because science 4 is too easy.

Science 1 and 2 are in a good spot. It takes a reasonable leap of learning to get each of them going in order. The leap to science 3 is too much. The player has to master every assembly task, all the fluid piping, and the entire oil production chain all at once. That's if they aren't also figuring out trains and bots to keep things going. Some of this learning process should be pushed off to the fourth science tier.

[Xterminator]

I'll go ahead and throw my opinion and experience in as well I suppose.

Honestly, I can see an argument for both sides. I remember when I first started playing, science 1 and 2 were in good places as mentioned, but once I needed science 3 my mind was boggled. I think it probably took me like 3-4 hours to set it all up my first couple times and I only managed to produce enough stuff for like 2 assemblers worth.
On the other hand though, the challenge was still fun and looking back on it I still appreciate the learning process and challenges I had to go through to get science 3 all set up.

At least in my experience , I would say that actually the hardest part is producing enough stuff (mainly the oil products) needed to supply blue science, rather than the actual recipe being too complicated. Even now after hundreds of hours of play and many many saves I still sometimes have issues producing enough oil products to keep all science 3 machines running full tilt.

I think that science 4 definitely could be made more difficult though. Sure, getting artifacts can be fairly hard, but once you do get them I think it's just too simple. I think having it require some other stuff would be cool, like maybe fast Belts or express Belts, and artifacts. Something that is a later game item but preferably not an oil byproduct since science 3 already takes plenty of that. Lol

[Optera]

The work needed to get science pack 3 automated is indeed a very steep curve compared to 1 to 2.
My Idea to make progression a bit smoother:
Sci3 uses some mid oil product like lubricant or instead of red circuits and batteries. So it's more accessible before you basically have built 90% of the whole base.
Sci4 in turn uses 1x of each Tier 3 module, making it a tedious and expensive end product.

[MrGrim]

I think it probably took me like 3-4 hours to set it all up my first couple times and I only managed to produce enough stuff for like 2 assemblers worth.
On the other hand though, the challenge was still fun and looking back on it I still appreciate the learning process and challenges I had to go through to get science 3 all set up.

My experience in my first game was similar. Getting science 3 up felt like a real accomplishment. It took time and planning and thought. I'm in agreement with people that say it isn't that 2 >> 3 is too hard, it's that 1 >> 2 is way too easy. I felt accomplishment at 1 because it required the first real fully automated system to make work reliably and well.

2 was just a minor extension to 1.

[TheWesDude]

i agree with the OP in that blue science is difficult, but for a different reason.

it is something i see in new players every single time.

it needs red circuits which needs plastic which is made with... petroleum

it needs batteries which needs sulfuric acid which is made from sulfur which is made from... petroleum

it always ends up with people having full tanks of light oil, petroleum tanks empty, and heavy oil almost full wondering why their refineries stopped working.

the problem with blue science is not that it is difficult in and of itself, it is that it is so petroleum demanding it leaves light/heavy out causing frustration in new players not knowing that their first research needs to be advanced oil processing so they can do cracking. seeing as how many things require red circuits, i think a good fix would be to remove red circuits and add solid fuel instead which can be made from light or heavy leaving petroleum only having 1 material required which would make it easier for new players.

then have purple science need red circuits, alien artifacts, and maybe something else or just leave it at red circuits and alien artifacts.

[DedlySpyder]

I believe the reasoning behind the science packs are the way the game teaches you how to play (which I think is an amazing ideal:

Science pack 1: basic automation

Science packs 2: automation with Intermediary items

Science pack 3: oil (I think oil alone is why it's such a gap, maybe it could be a little less dependant on it)

Science pack 4: take the fight to the aliens

[TheWesDude]

they need to expand the use of light oil, currently the main use for light oil is turning into solid fuel or cracking to petroleum

either make science 3 need solid fuel, or change plastic production to light oil i would say. heavy has lube, petrol has everything else.

[hi_impact]

It's an eternal debate on the difficulty of science pack 3 with oil, but I can't really find a compelling reason to actually change the science system.

Teaching the player on how to make the two key oil products (plastic and batteries) is important, and it is good they are lumped into the same project. Lubricant is not far behind with them being needed for either the satellite or robots.

It is my observation from friends that science pack 2 is when Factorio becomes fun, addictive, and "clicks" with the player. After that, no problem is too small. Oil is the source of much disorganization and spaghetti but it only pushes players to tame the beast. I am still to this day (250 hrs) trying to find a good place to put my acid and plastic before logistics bots.

[Koub]

I also think the 4 science pack tiers should give a feel of regularly increasing complexity, instead of the irregular progression we have now.
Currently, I feel it's like "discover fire", "discover the wheel", "make a nuclear bomb", and finally "learn how to carve a stick". I'd really prefer a smoother progression along the science tiers.

[kingarthur]

i agree with koub. the biggest issue with science isnt 1->2 and 2->3 but that 3->4 drops the complexity off of a cliff. sure alien artifact can be difficult to acquire from the biters but they are far to easy to use it the factory. ive gone as high as using 50 labs at the same time and have never needed to place more than one assembler to make sci pack 4s.

as they are science packs are in the wrong order of complexity to automate.

• 1. sci pack 1 - minimum assemblers needed is 2. 1 gear and one red pack.
  2. sci pack 2 - minimum assemblers needed is 6. 1 copper cable, 1 green circuit, 1 gear, 1 inserter, 1 belt, and 1 red pack.
  3. sci pack 3 - minimum machines needed is 12. 1 copper cable, 1 green circuit, 1 gear, 1 inserter, 1 fast inserter, 1 smart/filter inserter, 1 sulfur, 1 sulfur acid, 1 battery, 1 plastic, 1 red circuit, 1 blue pack.
  4. sci pack 4 - minimum assemblers needed is 1. 1 purple pack.

so if we want to adjust the difficultly curve to bring purple more in line with the others it would need to use between 24 - 36 assemblers to automate it.
as is artifacts give a 1 - 10 ratio so to keep that from changing change the artifacts to make a part of the recipe for purple. like 1 artifact makes 10 research samples that get combined with other items to make purple packs

[Drury]

I absolutely don't feel like there's any sort of disbalance in terms of science. Every tier is a huge jump and the whole challenge of obtaining purple science comes from killing aliens, as it should be.

The fact that killing aliens is too easy is an issue of combat balance, not science balance.

[Ranakastrasz]

I also think the 4 science pack tiers should give a feel of regularly increasing complexity, instead of the irregular progression we have now.
Currently, I feel it's like "discover fire", "discover the wheel", "make a nuclear bomb", and finally "learn how to carve a stick". I'd really prefer a smoother progression along the science tiers.

Ok, that is a great Quote. Can I use it?

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Bobs mod and Science Overhaul have some interesting setups, that give actual feedback on how alternate setups might work.

Bobs mod adds a Level 4 research pack (Alien research is Alien Research, and then split between types, and I am ingnoring it) which uses 4 more expensive things. Notably an express belt, and I think a robot of some kind. Can't recall. Still, it is a step up in research costs, which made it interesting, and has the same kind of cliff to setup as T2 -> T3 does.

Science Overhaul seems to keep loosely the same balance, just with custom ingredients instead of nonsensical usage of already existing stuff.

I honestly think that increasing T2 pack complexity, to 3 items, (add steel?) and make T4 use 5 items, might make it a bit more linear. As it is, its 2 item, 2 item, 4 item, 1 item. Not surprising you do the first two trivially, the third is really complex, and the fourth is trivial. Ignoring the components making up those components, admittedly.

Science overhaul, its 2 components for each and every science pack, but components themselves are more complex instead.