Thoughts on 0.13 Terrain Generation

[MrGrim]

So I finally got all of my mods sorted and began work on my most recent base tonight. AA few hours in an all was going well until I noticed what was appearing in newly mapped territory by my radar. So, before going to bed I decided to save then reveal a large chunk of the map to decide if I wanted to abandon the considerable work I've put into this save already. The results were interesting, to say the least. I'm not sure what I expected.. Attached is the map view.

You can clearly make out where 0.12 ends and 0.13 begins. RSO is used both pre and post here, and it seems like maybe RSO's biter base density has changed or isn't working correctly. So be it, a little more turret spam when I get out that far. Also, the clear border that can be seen with squared off lakes could be considered reasonable. There's no reason to expect the original generator to be retained through 0.13 for older saves (though would have been nice).

Those things aside, 0.12 has large consistent biomes with clear transitions. It looked quite natural. The 0.13 landscape looks kind of like splattered paint. Is this everybody's experience, or is the fact that I'm coming from a 0.12 save causing this? What do you think of this new terrain generator?

[TheTom]

I opened about a dozen new games just to validate that and seriously, the new terrain looks like splattered paint. Whatever biomes they put up - they are TINY. Water mini-lakes that make working around them a pain, but are not large enough to be meaningfull.

BIG step backward.

[orzelek]

About RSO - thanks for the nice screenshot.
I did have a feeling that there are many more enemy bases suddenly. And I'm puzzled about it - I did not change anything in the mod code or config to change amount of enemies.
You can reduce enemy amounts in new games from settings but on upgraded map you are stuck with more enemies for now.

[MrGrim]

About RSO - thanks for the nice screenshot.
I did have a feeling that there are many more enemy bases suddenly. And I'm puzzled about it - I did not change anything in the mod code or config to change amount of enemies.
You can reduce enemy amounts in new games from settings but on upgraded map you are stuck with more enemies for now.

Thanks for replying. I mostly brought it up so that people didn't see the change and think maybe not using RSO in 0.13 was the cause. When I originally created the map the reduced density was more of a happy surprise than anything.

With your modding experience I would like to ask you a question if you don't mind. Is the API comprehensive enough to use similar mechanisms to what RSO uses to completely replace terrain generation with a mod? The devs might not want to revert the changes, but they might be willing to extend the modding API if needed.

As it stands, I think I may reload the 0.12 save in 0.12 and just reveal more map than I'll ever use and deal w/ the save file size.

[orzelek]

About RSO - thanks for the nice screenshot.
I did have a feeling that there are many more enemy bases suddenly. And I'm puzzled about it - I did not change anything in the mod code or config to change amount of enemies.
You can reduce enemy amounts in new games from settings but on upgraded map you are stuck with more enemies for now.

Thanks for replying. I mostly brought it up so that people didn't see the change and think maybe not using RSO in 0.13 was the cause. When I originally created the map the reduced density was more of a happy surprise than anything.

With your modding experience I would like to ask you a question if you don't mind. Is the API comprehensive enough to use similar mechanisms to what RSO uses to completely replace terrain generation with a mod? The devs might not want to revert the changes, but they might be willing to extend the modding API if needed.

As it stands, I think I may reload the 0.12 save in 0.12 and just reveal more map than I'll ever use and deal w/ the save file size.

It would be feasible to replace terrain generation also - it doesn't need regen option so might be a bit easier actually.
Coming up with nice algorithms that can adhere to chunk by chunk generation would be more of a challenge.

[MrGrim]

It would be feasible to replace terrain generation also - it doesn't need regen option so might be a bit easier actually.
Coming up with nice algorithms that can adhere to chunk by chunk generation would be more of a challenge.

Challenge accepted. Do you know off the top of your head whether decorations like grass and whatnot can also be overridden, or can only the terrain type be controlled? I'm going to go read over the RSO code and that part of the API documentation. Maybe get a dumb proof of concept going that a smart algorithm can be inserted into.

[orzelek]

It would be feasible to replace terrain generation also - it doesn't need regen option so might be a bit easier actually.
Coming up with nice algorithms that can adhere to chunk by chunk generation would be more of a challenge.

Challenge accepted. Do you know off the top of your head whether decorations like grass and whatnot can also be overridden, or can only the terrain type be controlled? I'm going to go read over the RSO code and that part of the API documentation. Maybe get a dumb proof of concept going that a smart algorithm can be inserted into.

Decorations and terrain are two different things I think. Terrain is tiles and there are efficient ways for replacing that (look for sand in RSO since it actually applies tiles for it). Decoration are entities so they are spawned as those - algorithm is the biggest trick

One thing that might be problematic is that I'm not sure whats the evaluation order for chunk spawning event so two mods that play with it might have problems. Never tested that tho.

[Qon]

People reading this thread are probably interested in my bug report: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27199

Is the API comprehensive enough to use similar mechanisms to what RSO uses to completely replace terrain generation with a mod? The devs might not want to revert the changes, but they might be willing to extend the modding API if needed.

The mod Water Maze does it's own terrain generation. You can outrun the generator though get killed because it spawns water under you if you go really fast. But A good starting point.

[Align]

About RSO - thanks for the nice screenshot.
I did have a feeling that there are many more enemy bases suddenly. And I'm puzzled about it - I did not change anything in the mod code or config to change amount of enemies.

I'm pretty sure it just doesn't remove the base game's enemies anymore, as it used to be possible to set starting area to None, set RSO to handle all enemy spawning, then play a normal game (that is, you don't spawn in the middle of a biter nest). This no longer works in 0.13, no matter what.

[orzelek]

About RSO - thanks for the nice screenshot.
I did have a feeling that there are many more enemy bases suddenly. And I'm puzzled about it - I did not change anything in the mod code or config to change amount of enemies.

I'm pretty sure it just doesn't remove the base game's enemies anymore, as it used to be possible to set starting area to None, set RSO to handle all enemy spawning, then play a normal game (that is, you don't spawn in the middle of a biter nest). This no longer works in 0.13, no matter what.

You are right - removal trick failed to work properly on enemies. New version will fix this one and return enemy bases to usual RSO.

[MrGrim]

People reading this thread are probably interested in my bug report: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27199

The mod Water Maze does it's own terrain generation. You can outrun the generator though get killed because it spawns water under you if you go really fast. But A good starting point.

Thanks!

Also of note is the post linked to in that thread here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27521

The images this person generated are very interesting! This behavior is indeed very odd. Fixing that would go a long way, I think. It wouldn't produce features like the desert in the north side of the 0.12 area in my screenshot, but at least it would help smooth things out considerably.

[TerraFirma]

Actually, I like the new terrain generation. It looks, to me, more realistic than the otherwise bland treatment of biomes we had before. It looks wilder. ie. more realistic.

[MrGrim]

Actually, I like the new terrain generation. It looks, to me, more realistic than the otherwise bland treatment of biomes we had before. It looks wilder. ie. more realistic.

Deserts don't tend to alternate with grasslands every 100 feet irl

[IronCartographer]

Actually, I like the new terrain generation. It looks, to me, more realistic than the otherwise bland treatment of biomes we had before. It looks wilder. ie. more realistic.

On a small scale, that's true. But when you zoom out, something has been lost. It would be nice if the old large-scale biome modulation and the new height-from-water modulation were blended, to get the best of both.

Resources are the other way around: Starting area way too unpredictable, large scale quite nicely done at lower frequencies.

[Kewlhotrod]

very disappointing with the new map gen, after further exploration my nice clean map has turned into something which was originally, large landmass pure sand/ or grasslands is now snakey of the mixture of two biomes

gay

[IronCartographer]

Sharp boundaries are to be expected with any reasonably performant update to the map generation.

I just hope they have enough leeway to add in a continental-scale modulation for larger biome distributions again.

[MrGrim]

Sharp boundaries are to be expected with any reasonably performant update to the map generation.

I just hope they have enough leeway to add in a continental-scale modulation for larger biome distributions again.

I've actually been curious about this. The FFF about the new system talking about how much better the performance was. However, I'm curious where the need for better performance came from? As far as I know it's only used when new chunks are charted, and the per chunk cost never seemed particularly high or caused me any grief. However, I do have a high end CPU. Where users on low end CPU's encountering game impacting performance problems when walking around discovering new territory?

[Qon]

However, I do have a high end CPU. Where users on low end CPU's encountering game impacting performance problems when walking around discovering new territory?

Not when walking around.

But at high speeds you could get into not yet generated territory and get all kinds of fun when the resource patches you were looking for only spawned once you left the area, or native nest spawing on top of you.

[Mr. Tact]

Wow, that clearly demonstrates the new vs. old generation. I'd like to hear the devs explain the clear loss of "biomes". Was that intentional? An unintended consequence which will be addressed?

[MrGrim]

... or native nest spawing on top of you.

Ouch!!