*[0.13.1] [Twinsen] Screen flicker of ore/trees when standing on belt

[Killerbee]

I have been unable to capture it on film, but I have found a for me reliable setup to replicate it.
By zooming out and walking against a mine while on a belt will cause the screen to flicker.
I've only been able to observe it while it is daytime causing me to suspect that the flickering is caused by shadows being generated every other frame.

You can use the setup in this screenshot but you have to zoom out more:

[Loewchen]

Please provide a save file with exact instructions on how to produce this.

[Killerbee]

Step 1. Load the game.
Step 2. Zoom out a bunch.
Step 3. Walk to the right into the mines
Step 4. Look at the trees because that is where the flicker is most visible

[Rseding91]

That sounds like hardware issues with your graphics card if you can't reproduce it in a video.

[Killerbee]

I also compared it with 0.12.35 as you can see in the title, I was checking if that version also has the problem and forgot to switch back.
But 0.13.1 also contains the issue.

Managed to capture 2 screenshots that show the effect.
I have also extracted 2 smaller sections of the same iron field that you can switch between/compare and you'll see the difference.

The reason why I can't capture it on video has to do with video compression, I don't have a good capture system that can capture lossless at 60FPS.

[Loewchen]

Ah that flicker, I noticed this before, it seems to be generated by very slow movement speed like movement from standing on yellow or red belts. Not only areas of trees are flickering but resources as well, it is most noticeable by standing on a yellow belt and looking at an iron patch.

[Twinsen]

I still fail to see what is happening here.
Can you try disabling clouds, see if it still happens?
Can you post a log(any log) so i can see your graphics settings and hardware?
If you are using anti-aliasing, that might be the problem.

[Loewchen]

gif: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-qMx ... 0FPUUlRNlE (50MB). It is quite obvious in this case, so if you can not see it then the issue is most likely monitor refresh related.

settings:

config.ini

(5.58 KiB) Downloaded 154 times

some log:

Code: Select all

   0.003 2016-07-05 14:47:20; Factorio 0.13.4 (build 23025, win64, alpha)
   0.003 Operating system: Windows 7 Service Pack 1
   0.003 Program arguments: "C:\Spiele\Factorio\Factorio_0.13.0\bin\x64\Factorio.exe" 
   0.003 Read data path: C:/Spiele/Factorio/Factorio_0.13.0/data
   0.003 Write data path: C:/Spiele/Factorio/Factorio_0.13.0
   0.003 Binaries path: C:/Spiele/Factorio/Factorio_0.13.0/bin
   0.019 Graphics options: [FullScreen: true] [VSync: true] [UIScale: 95%] [MultiSampling: OFF] [Graphics quality: low] [Video memory usage: all] [Light scale: 20%] [Screen: 255] [DXT: false]
   0.019 Available display adapters: 1
   0.019  [0]: \\.\DISPLAY1 - NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 Ti   {0x05, [0,0], 1920x1080, 32bit, 60Hz}
   0.020 Create display on adapter 0. Size 1280x720 at position [310, 162].
   0.477 Initialised Direct3D:[0] NVIDIA GeForce GTX 560 Ti  ; driver: nvd3dumx.dll 9.18.13.4052
   0.483     Video memory size (dedicated video/dedicated system/shared system/available): 977/0/3071/4041 MB
   0.535 Desktop composition is active.

[Twinsen]

I think I see the issue here.
It's a display problem.

Open the following page in a new browser window and move it around the screen.
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/inversion.php
Most of the 11 images will flicker violently.

We are probably creating the same effect at high zoom levels. Very visible in trees and ore since they create a pattern similar to those images.
Nothing to do about it. It's how displays work. Get a more expensive monitor

[Loewchen]

Very interesting, pretty much everything on that site is flickering for me when scrolling, now I'm dizzy
The technical explanations are a bit lacking though: "Strong flicker indicates that the voltages in the monitor are misadjusted."

[huhn]

and a more expensive monitor isn't fixing this. this is simply a problem from LCD screens.

a decent screen isn't flickering as long as the image isn't moved but in factorio things move so...

[Twinsen]

Very interesting, pretty much everything on that site is flickering for me when scrolling, now I'm dizzy
The technical explanations are a bit lacking though: "Strong flicker indicates that the voltages in the monitor are misadjusted."

That page tests something else actually. It's meant to test if the image is flickering or moving while standing still. But the images were very good for showing the effect i'm talking about.

and a more expensive monitor isn't fixing this. this is simply a problem from LCD screens.
a decent screen isn't flickering as long as the image isn't moved but in factorio things move so...

I tried it on 2 different monitors and one flickered more violently, possibly coincidentally, the more expensive monitor flickered less.

[huhn]

my point is more that the flicker will not vanish completely as long as the display is a LCD. the effect comes most likely from response time and overdrive overshooting.

i have an relative expensive gaming monitor and the problem is easily visible on my way more expensive UHD TV too.

[Killerbee]

I would like this issue to be reopened.
The explanation Twinsen provided explains some flicker I have seen on website but doesn't explain the flickering I see in Factorio.

The key difference is that the flickering in Factorio can be captured in screenshots, so copies made in software unrelated to any hardware.
While the flickering on those websites can't be captured in screenshots but can only be captured using an external device(camera).

So in my opinion this is still an issue related to Factorio and not my monitor.

[Rseding91]

I would like this issue to be reopened.
The explanation Twinsen provided explains some flicker I have seen on website but doesn't explain the flickering I see in Factorio.

The key difference is that the flickering in Factorio can be captured in screenshots, so copies made in software unrelated to any hardware.
While the flickering on those websites can't be captured in screenshots but can only be captured using an external device(camera).

So in my opinion this is still an issue related to Factorio and not my monitor.

No. Even if it is a thing (which nobody has shown it is with any evidence) it's not worth the man hours to look into.

[Killerbee]

I would like this issue to be reopened.
The explanation Twinsen provided explains some flicker I have seen on website but doesn't explain the flickering I see in Factorio.

The key difference is that the flickering in Factorio can be captured in screenshots, so copies made in software unrelated to any hardware.
While the flickering on those websites can't be captured in screenshots but can only be captured using an external device(camera).

So in my opinion this is still an issue related to Factorio and not my monitor.

No. Even if it is a thing (which nobody has shown it is with any evidence) it's not worth the man hours to look into.

I have shown it is a thing in the following post: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=27709#p175395
Just compare the images and you'll see the difference, open the SideBySide, select the same pixel on the left and right and you'll see that it has different RGB values.

This most likely isn't an issue you want to fix in the Alpha of Factorio, but I do think it should be on one of your todo lists for the future.

[Rseding91]

There's nothing to fix. When you take an image, scale it down to 1/10th the size and shift it around the end result isn't perfect. That's nothing new and exists in anything that does image manipulation.

[Loewchen]

This really is not dependent on the game, you can even replicate the effect by scrolling very slowly the pictures of your post (best by using the middle mouse button). When you display an image smaller than its actual resolution there will be pixels in the image that don't get displayed on screen, if you start scrolling vertically, the rows displayed/not displayed will cycle through, that is what will be perceived as flicker. That is the reason you see it more distictive when zoomed out, as more pixels are not seen.

It could be possible to improve that by using anti aliasing but you would have to activate it through the driver.

[huhn]

There's nothing to fix. When you take an image, scale it down to 1/10th the size and shift it around the end result isn't perfect. That's nothing new and exists in anything that does image manipulation.

what scaling algorithm is factorio using? it looks like point to me.
isn't it possible to use a very fancy scaling algorithm?

[Harkonnen604]

Some simple motion blur when moving camera/character might help with this, e.g. blend over previous frame with 80% opacity and keep it stacked (like winamp visualizer) for as long as camera movement is in effect. Might be interesting visual feature on its own for fast scrolls. Another option is to scroll by 2 pixels instead of 1.