Research requirements should include needed items

[Hexicube]

Couldn't fit full thing in title, the requirements for a given research should include all research needed in order to obtain items used in the items that research unlocks. The main offender for this is the research for advanced circuits, which requires plastic but can be obtained without unlocking that technology.

This would be more for user friendliness as opposed to actual balance, as you can't use the items regardless, and will be a lot more important when the tech tree is implemented as there's not going to be tech you actually need not showing up due to a missing link.

For actual balance, any tech that contains only some items that need another technology should be split up so those items can rely on that tech without the other items needing it. I don't think any tech actually has this issue, but if there is that should happen for usability in 0.13.

[edit] Any research requiring blue science should require the battery research, since blue science needs batteries.

[bobingabout]

Couldn't fit full thing in title, the requirements for a given research should include all research needed in order to obtain items used in the items that research unlocks. The main offender for this is the research for advanced circuits, which requires plastic but can be obtained without unlocking that technology.

This would be more for user friendliness as opposed to actual balance, as you can't use the items regardless, and will be a lot more important when the tech tree is implemented as there's not going to be tech you actually need not showing up due to a missing link.

For actual balance, any tech that contains only some items that need another technology should be split up so those items can rely on that tech without the other items needing it. I don't think any tech actually has this issue, but if there is that should happen for usability in 0.13.

[edit] Any research requiring blue science should require the battery research, since blue science needs batteries.

A lot of these holes have been plugged already, the fact that you don't need plastics to research advanced circuits is probably an oversight.
The Devs would be more inclined to fix these research holes if someone posted a full list of these holes, and perhaps a short reason as to why they should be. In fact last time the holes were patched, it was because of a list of the holes

You have one good example there already with the batteries, the blue science suggestion is also good, but doesn't have any specific examples

[The Phoenixian]

It's worth considering with advanced circuits that the tech to unlock them is "advanced electronics" which, like all the "electronics" line of techs, is a gateway technology that leads to many more technologies.

Requiring plastics for that would mean that all the research it leads to ---including solar panels, electric engines, and lasers --- would also require plastics.

[bobingabout]

Requiring plastics for that would mean that all the research it leads to ---including solar panels, electric engines, and lasers --- would also require plastics.

But if the thing you're building requires advanced electronics, which you can't build without plastics, it shouldn't make any difference.

Unless of course someone did something silly and put on a prerequisite of advanced electronics when it doesn't actually cost any advanced electronics to make.

I also think that the Processing unit should be moved on to Advanced Electronics 2... I mean, as far as I'm aware, everything that needs a processing unit to build requires advanced electronics 2 research(unless I fixed it to be this way in my mod, then forgot about it), and you probably can't build a processing unit straight away after researching advanced electronics anyway... unless you already had the sulphuric acid waiting. In any case, moving it up would put a clear definition of Tier 1, Tier 2 and Tier 3 electronics.

[Hexicube]

It's worth considering with advanced circuits that the tech to unlock them is "advanced electronics" which, like all the "electronics" line of techs, is a gateway technology that leads to many more technologies.

Requiring plastics for that would mean that all the research it leads to ---including solar panels, electric engines, and lasers --- would also require plastics.

That's a different issue, anything hiding behind the tech that unlocks advanced/processing circuits should require those items. The fact that solar panels are behind it is arguably a separate issue.

[daniel34]

Requiring plastics for that would mean that all the research it leads to ---including solar panels, electric engines, and lasers --- would also require plastics.

But if the thing you're building requires advanced electronics, which you can't build without plastics, it shouldn't make any difference.

Unless of course someone did something silly and put on a prerequisite of advanced electronics when it doesn't actually cost any advanced electronics to make.

I need to research advanced electronics to be able to research solar panels and laser turrets, but none of them actually need advanced circuits to produce.

[Hexicube]

Requiring plastics for that would mean that all the research it leads to ---including solar panels, electric engines, and lasers --- would also require plastics.

But if the thing you're building requires advanced electronics, which you can't build without plastics, it shouldn't make any difference.

Unless of course someone did something silly and put on a prerequisite of advanced electronics when it doesn't actually cost any advanced electronics to make.

I need to research advanced electronics to be able to research solar panels and laser turrets, but none of them actually need advanced circuits to produce.

Surely the solution to that is to not make it require the advanced circuits tech? It only needs green circuits, so it should only require the tech that gives green circuits.

[bobingabout]

I need to research advanced electronics to be able to research solar panels and laser turrets, but none of them actually need advanced circuits to produce.

I probably fixed this in my mod already... but in my opinion, if it doesn't need advanced circuits, it shouldn't require advanced electronics research to unlock.

[RedstoneMaster256]

Essentially, a rocket requires a bunch of electric motors, but electric motor research is not required for rocket research, meaning you can research the rocket before you research all of its ingredients.

[DevilXD]

It's the same with many others, for ex. Advanced Electronics, gives Advanced Circuits (the red ones) that need plastic, yet they don't require Plastics research.

[Loewchen]

If I remember correctly, the developers stated that there is no aspiration to prevent such "traps" as it might cause problems with custom scenarios in which the intermediate is provided.

[Koub]

[Koub] Merged topics : both are around the idea that every needed tech to build a product from a research should be a prerequisite of the product's research.

[unifiedmind]

Here's a mod I made that fixes most, if not all, of the holes and redundancies in the "tech tree".

A few other changes:
- Combat robotics requires robotics and flight
- The recipe for the defender capsule was changed to reflect other robot recipes ("1 x flying robot frame" + "2 x piercing bullet magazine")
- Science pack requirements are also taken into account

This is the first mod I made so I don't know if there's a better way of going about changing these things. All I know is it works for me.

[edit] I even went through all the mods I had and changed those, but I won't be sharing those in case of any copyright issues. Researching has never been the same. It almost leads you through the game.