Two separate accumulator types: normal and emergency backup

[mattj256]

tl;dr: Make two different types of accumulator. The power priorities will be: solar, normal accumulator, steam, emergency backup accumulator.

I am new to Factorio. I have seen the pain, difficulty, and frustration in setting up an electric network that turns off the steam engines at night. The current power priorities are: solar, steam, accumulators. This means that elaborate workarounds are required to use steam engines only when no other power source is available.

I want something built into the game (not a mod). It should be usable by an intelligent seven-year-old and require little or no configuration.

I've read some of the discussion online. This is my first post so it won't let me post links. I've been influenced by:

• https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?tit ... he_game.3F
  Accumulator priority based on charge level: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2087
  Accumulator Controls: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1481

My suggestion is to make two different types of accumulator. These are two different items, possibly unlocked by two different technologies.

Emergency Backup Accumulator: This is what the game currently provides. Power is only drawn from an emergency backup accumulator if no other power sources are available.

Normal Accumulator: This would be a new item. Power is drawn from a normal accumulator only if no solar power is available.

The full priority list would be: solar, normal accumulator, steam, emergency backup accumulator.

[ssilk]

How would your setup work, if other types of energy are introduced? Like wind-, water-generators. Or nuclear power?

I ask, cause the idea of the current electric devices is that they have priorities for charging and uncharging.

And the idea of the community about that problem (you can find the discussions, if you search for "energy priorit*, solar steam, night day switch" etc.) that we need to wait for the so long awaited power switch, that will come with v0.13. With that device you can make such things and much, much more.

PS: Some of the described problems can be resolved by using burner inserters. There are also players, that build an own electric network only for powering the electric production devices (especially the inserters).

[Klonan]

This won't be a big problem in 0.13, you can use the power switch reading from an accumulator to automatically trigger steam engines to turn online when the storage capacity drops below some number

[mattj256]

How would your setup work, if other types of energy are introduced? Like wind-, water-generators. Or nuclear power?

The simplest answer would be: clean (zero pollution) energy, normal accumulator, dirty (polluting) energy, emergency accumulator.

If there were different types of energy with different degrees of pollution I could imagine all kinds of possible trade-offs, and I'm trying to keep the design simple which means limiting the options that are available. If someone wanted to set up a factory that had some pollution but not too much they would just have to use existing tools.

we need to wait for the so long awaited power switch, that will come with v0.13. With that device you can make such things and much, much more.

Sounds great! I'm eagerly awaiting it.

PS: Some of the described problems can be resolved by using burner inserters. There are also players, that build an own electric network only for powering the electric production devices (especially the inserters).

That's exactly what I'm reacting to. It's so complicated! I understand that it's possible to do it the way you've described, I just want something simpler. I'm a newbie and I should probably bite the bullet and set up the pollution-free stuff on my own factory.

[ske]

PS: Some of the described problems can be resolved by using burner inserters. There are also players, that build an own electric network only for powering the electric production devices (especially the inserters).

That's exactly what I'm reacting to. It's so complicated! I understand that it's possible to do it the way you've described, I just want something simpler. I'm a newbie and I should probably bite the bullet and set up the pollution-free stuff on my own factory.

It's easier to use water pumps instead of inserters for regulating steam power.

You need one detector signal to detect when the power is soon running out. In 0.13 I believe that you can use battery fill directly as signal. In 0.12 you have to build a tricy contraption:

1) Battery that is connected to two electrical networks. a) the main electical network and b) a small local network (one pole is enough).
2) A loop consisting of
- 1 inserter in the main electric network inserting items from a belt into a smart chest
- 1 inserter connected to the small local electrical network taking things out of the chest
- 3 pieces of wood in the chest
- some belts closing the loop such that the items always get inserted/extracted from the chest
- some lamps to adjust power draw of the local electrical network.
3) cables running from the smart chest to pumps or smart inserters.

Normally, there is 0 or 1 items in the chest. If the power runs out, the inserter in the local network runs out of power first and stops extracting items from the chest. It may hold 0 or 1 items with its arms. The belts and the inserter inserter still work and they fill the chest up with 2-3 items within seconds.

The smart inserters for the burners (or better water pumps) turn on when there is >1 items in the smart chest. This starts the steam power generation. As soon as there is enough power available to load the batteries, the extractor inserter starts running again and the power production is reduced.

[bobucles]

This won't be a big problem in 0.13, you can use the power switch reading from an accumulator to automatically trigger steam engines to turn online when the storage capacity drops below some number

This is basically what players are looking for. Some just don't want to run steam engines at all until things are critical, while others don't mind them running regularly.

[Hexicube]

How would your setup work, if other types of energy are introduced? Like wind-, water-generators. Or nuclear power?

Free energy (needs to fuel) -> Accumulator -> Non-free energy -> Emergency

This could be implemented with a number priority system. For instance, set solar to 100, accumulators to 75, steam to 50, and emergency to 25. The higher numbers are prioritised, and modders can slot in their own wherever they want to. Nuclear power would likely be a 70 due to needing a fuel that burns for a long time, and wind/water would work fine above 75.

[JasonC]

I'm also new to the game but I don't really like the idea of separate accumulator types. I think it is too specialized, and I think there's other ways to make this possible that would have a much greater potential for flexibility.

Instead of separate accumulator types, I think more options for power control would be better. Ability to sense power draw and accumulator charge on a circuit network, and also a circuit network controlled power couple that can be used to cut power from a segment of the grid in response to circuit network signals.

Using these, not only would you be able to set up your own "normal" and "emergency" accumulator system, but you'd be able to do a bunch of other things as well, plus I think it's more fun to design and build your own emergency backup system instead of just using built-in "emergency" power generators.

[JasonC]

Although, I just tried designing the above system and there is the problem of the "normal" accumulators charging off the main grid and producing an oscillation in the proposed circuit network controlled power relay. You'd need a ... large diode-ish thing or something to stop it. Unless somebody else has an idea? Here is a currently non-working diagram that would work if the "normal" accumulators could be made to charge off solar energy only, somehow:



A circuit network hysteresis controller would also solve the problem nicely: Turn on the relay when "normal" accumulator charge is low, turn it off when "normal" accumulator charge is almost full (not to mention how generally useful a hysteresis controller would be). You can wing one now with creative use of inserters and chests to maintain state but its kinda sloppy.

So that means as an alternative to the originally proposed suggestion, the following three new basic building blocks would also make this possible, and would give you a lot of interesting flexibility, too:

1. Connect accumulators to circuit network to sense charge.
2. A circuit network controlled switchable power relay.
3. A circuit network hysteresis controller.

Would be sweet!

[mattj256]

Wow! I wasn't expecting so many responses to my post!

After this discussion (and especially learning about the power switch meter in 0.13) I'm no longer convinced my suggestion is a good idea. But that's ok. If it's actually a good idea I have faith it will find its way into the game, and if it doesn't that's ok too.

Although, I just tried designing the above system and there is the problem of the "normal" accumulators charging off the main grid and producing an oscillation in the proposed circuit network controlled power relay. You'd need a ... large diode-ish thing or something to stop it. Unless somebody else has an idea?

That's an excellent point.

This is what I had in mind. When sending power OUT the priority is: solar, normal accumulator, steam, emergency accumulator. When drawing power IN, an accumulator can only draw from power sources of higher priority. An emergency accumulator can draw from solar, normal accumulators, and steam. A normal accumulator can only draw from solar. Therefore an uncharged emergency accumulator can cause steam engines to start up, and an uncharged normal accumulator can't.

My knowledge of circuit design is a lot less than yours! Does this make sense? Does this work? If yes I can edit my original post.

[JasonC]

When sending power OUT the priority is: solar, normal accumulator, steam, emergency accumulator. When drawing power IN, an accumulator can only draw from power sources of higher priority. An emergency accumulator can draw from solar, normal accumulators, and steam. A normal accumulator can only draw from solar

Therefore an uncharged emergency accumulator can cause steam engines to start up, and an uncharged normal accumulator can't.

But then the normal accumulators would only charge if your solar panels could power your entire power grid plus extra, otherwise they'd never charge. They also wouldn't be able to charge at night, ever, even if you're way under your steam generator capacity.

If your factory is using 20 MW, and you have 7 MW solar panel capacity and 20 MW steam capacity, the steam generators will only be providing 13 MW, the rest is made up for by solar.

Now you have plenty of power but you can't charge your normal accumulators still, since the solar panels are running full blast to power the factory, unless you run the steam generators faster to make up for it. But then your uncharged normal accumulators must cause steam engines to start up. So there is a contradiction and that idea isn't quite possible. It's also not a very efficient use of power.

But, realistically, there's a more fundamental issue here: If you find yourself in situations where you need "emergency accumulators" then you are not growing your factory effectively. Sometimes you need to slow down development to focus on increasing power grid capacity if you're constantly going under it. If you need "emergency" accumulators often, build more solar panels and steam generators so that you don't. If you're worried about pollution, build more solar panels. With enough solar panels to cover most of your needs in the day time you can charge your accumulators during the day too and use them at night to offset the steam generators.

In the big picture none of this matters, though. Over time you're still generating the same amount of power. You're either running steam generators harder at night, or you're running them harder when charging the accumulators, and even with your most recent idea you still have to run them harder to make up for the solar loss going into the accumulators. No matter how many layers about layers of prioritized accumulators you have, you'll still be generating the same amount of solar : steam power averaged over time. So it doesn't really change anything to have "emergency accumulators" in the first place.

[mattj256]

But then the normal accumulators would only charge if your solar panels could power your entire power grid plus extra, otherwise they'd never charge.

How does this work in the game right now? If I create a factory with only solar panels and accumulators and there isn't enough power for everything, what happens? (I did a few searches online but couldn't find an answer.)

My intention is that normal accumulators are for storing solar power. If you want to run mostly off of steam then you would need to incorporate the emergency backup accumulators into your design.

They also wouldn't be able to charge at night, ever, even if you're way under your steam generator capacity.

What you're writing is exactly what I had in mind. Emergency backup accumulators can charge at night and regular accumulators can't. Regular accumulators are for storing solar power, not steam power.

My baseline assumptions are (1) I want to generate as little pollution as possible, which means steam should run as little as possible, and (2) the goal is to have the whole factory run off of solar anyway.

I can see how other people would have different priorities and I wonder how best to accomodate that. If someone wants to store steam power in an accumulator, that's what the emergency backup accumulators are for. Are you saying you want to run extra steam power at night so you can charge an accumulator, then drain it during the day while steam power is off? That doesn't make sense to me.

No matter how many layers about layers of prioritized accumulators you have, you'll still be generating the same amount of solar : steam power averaged over time. So it doesn't really change anything to have "emergency accumulators" in the first place.

If the problem is that my electric network isn't supplying enough power or isn't supplying enough power from solar then nothing needs to change in the game mechanics. I would just need to build more power generation and/or power storage.

The problem I'm trying to solve here is that it's too hard to set up a factory that runs efficiently, meaning that solar power is saved and stored and steam power is only used when there is no other choice. As has already been mentioned, the changes in 0.13 will address this, so maybe my idea isn't useful or needed. My central point is that I shouldn't have to set up a complicated contraption with 15 moving parts, I shouldn't have to do Google searches and look online. Power generation and storage should just work, in a way that's intuitively obvious, and it should do what I described. I plop down some solar panels, plop down some steam engines, plop down some accumulators and it should work the way I describe.

Meanwhile, I don't have a strong enough background in circuit design to work this out on my own. I'm grateful for any help and suggestions.

[Lallante]

I would prefer it if they just gave us granular control over priorities at an advanced research level.

[mattj256]

I would prefer it if they just gave us granular control over priorities at an advanced research level.

That would be great!!!

If there isn't already a thread for that I suggest you create one for it. The developers are never going to see that idea if it's buried in the middle of this thread.

(Please post a link to your thread - it's a great idea and I'm curious what you have in mind, in more detail.)

[ssilk]

I would prefer it if they just gave us granular control over priorities at an advanced research level.

That is suggested many times.
Current state: I don't think it will be implemented, cause that feature has the potential to make things much more bad, than without.

[JasonC]

But then the normal accumulators would only charge if your solar panels could power your entire power grid plus extra, otherwise they'd never charge.

How does this work in the game right now? If I create a factory with only solar panels and accumulators and there isn't enough power for everything, what happens? (I did a few searches online but couldn't find an answer.)

Right now the rule is really simple: You have your total generation capacity from all you generators (solar and steam). First all your objects are powered. Then if there's any generation capacity left over, the remaining goes to charging accumulator (up to 300 kW per accumulator for charging). So accumulators will only charge if you can generate more power than you need. They'll never take power away from your other stuff, and they'll never charge if you can't generate enough power to power your factory. As for where the power comes from: Solar will always take priority. Any power needs that can't be met by the solar capacity will be made up for by steam.

And if you're using more power than you can produce and the accumulators have charge, they'll discharge to make up for it while they can (each providing up to 300 kW until empty).

So if you create a factory with only solar panels and accumulators and there isn't enough power for everything, the accumulators never charge. The power goes to your factory first, only the extra goes to accumulators.

The best way is to try it. Start a game in sandbox mode or use some spare solar panels. Set up a separate power network with a solar panel or two, an accumulator, and like a mine or something. Then click one of the electric poles and you can view the power consumption graph. Then observe.

My intention is that normal accumulators are for storing solar power. If you want to run mostly off of steam then you would need to incorporate the emergency backup accumulators into your design.

What do you propose should happen if you can generate 50 MW steam, 10 MW solar, and your factory needs 50 MW, and your accumulators want 10 MW for their max charge rate? Where does your factory get the 50 MW while the accumulators are charging during the day? And by contrast, where would your factory get that power during the day if you didn't have any accumulators?

Hint: As you think about the answer to that question, you will find that it doesn't change anything if the accumulators charge off solar vs. steam.

Also if you're proposing to have a separate set of solar panels dedicating to charging accumulators, why would you want that? If your accumulators are charged already or your solar panels generate more than the accumulators max input, why would you not want to use the extra solar capacity to power the rest of the factory (thus saving you steam generation)? That's what happens now.

They also wouldn't be able to charge at night, ever, even if you're way under your steam generator capacity.

What you're writing is exactly what I had in mind. Emergency backup accumulators can charge at night and regular accumulators can't. Regular accumulators are for storing solar power, not steam power.

Yeah but that's my point: It doesn't matter. This won't change the total power generated by steam.

Think about this: If "regular" accumulators can only charge during the day, unless you have enough solar panels to power your factory with left overs, they're charging off of steam anyways.

You see it doesn't matter when accumulators charge. They'll need the same amount of kWh whether it's during the day or during the night. And so you'll have to generate that. And if you force them to charge during the day they're taking that power from solar and that solar power isn't going to the rest of the factory and so steam has to make up for it, so it just means that while you'd be running steam generators less at night, you'd be running them more during the day and it'd cancel out, because during the day you're taking solar power that would normally make up for steam and using it to charge accumulators instead.

Do you understand?

Here's an example with numbers if not. Let's say you have:

• 60 MW steam generation capacity.
• 10 MW solar generation capacity.
• 20 accumulators = 6 MW consumption for max charge rate.
• 50 MW factory needs.

Now here is what happens if the accumulators charge during the day, as in your example case:

• During the day, while charging:
  • 70 MW total generation capacity.
  • 50 MW used by factory.
  • 6 MW used to charge accumulators.
  • That's 56 MW total, so 10 MW solar and 46 MW steam (so your steam isn't running full blast).
• At night, already charged:
  • 60 MW total generation capacity.
  • 50 MW used by factory.
  • That's 50 MW steam.

But here is what happens if the accumulators charge at night:

• During the day:
  • 70 MW total generation capacity.
  • 50 MW used by factory.
  • So 10 MW solar and 40 MW steam.
• At night, while charging:
  • 60 MW total generation capacity.
  • 50 MW used by factory.
  • 6 MW used to charge accumulators.
  • That's 56 MW steam.

So in the charge-by-day case you're running steam at 46 MW day and 50 MW night. In the charge-by-night case you're running steam at 40 MW day and 56 MW night. It's the same amount of steam and the same amount of net pollution gain over time, no matter when the accumulators charge. This happens because pollution dissipates slowly enough that it's really just a long, low-pass filter over pollution generation rates, and moving some night time pollution output to the daytime instead still accumulates the same amount of pollution per day.

Yet another way to think about this is you don't gain any generation capacity by using accumulators, you simply take extra power from one point in time and move it to a later point in time, but it's stoll the same amount of total power.

What you propose won't reduce pollution. There are other better ways to reduce pollution. In particular:

• Just build more solar panels.
• Build your steam generators near trees.
• Build your steam generators on tiles with higher absorption rates.
• Use efficiency modules.

My baseline assumptions are (1) I want to generate as little pollution as possible, which means steam should run as little as possible, and (2) the goal is to have the whole factory run off of solar anyway.

Your assumption that less steam = less pollution is correct, but your premise that controlling accumulator charging priorities will let steam run less is false. Your steam generators may get a break at night but that's cancelled out because they have to work harder during the day when accumulators are putting a strain on the grid while charging.

No matter how many layers about layers of prioritized accumulators you have, you'll still be generating the same amount of solar : steam power averaged over time. So it doesn't really change anything to have "emergency accumulators" in the first place.

If the problem is that my electric network isn't supplying enough power or isn't supplying enough power from solar then nothing needs to change in the game mechanics. I would just need to build more power generation and/or power storage.

That's precisely the problem.

The problem I'm trying to solve here is that it's too hard to set up a factory that runs efficiently, meaning that solar power is saved and stored and steam power is only used when there is no other choice.

This is already how the game works.

Overall I think you've got to wrap your head around the key point that accumulators don't charge for free. If you charge them during the day, you're using solar power that otherwise would go to offset steam power, so the steam generators work harder anyways. Nothing changes.

If you use the 0.13 changes to dedicate a solar array to charging accumulators without tying that solar array into the main grid, you'll end up generating even more pollution, because extra solar generation capacity will just be unused instead of going to offset steam. The way the game currently works accomplishes exactly what your goal is. You just need to build more solar panels if you want to use less steam.

[JasonC]

By the way check out https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?tit ... priorities for a few tricks you can do now that may be more along the lines of what you're going for.

You may also find some inspiration in https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?tit ... r_Networks, which you can use to help reduce usage to specific parts of your factory.

[mattj256]

Overall I think you've got to wrap your head around the key point that accumulators don't charge for free. If you charge them during the day, you're using solar power that otherwise would go to offset steam power, so the steam generators work harder anyways. Nothing changes.

Thanks Jason. I understand what you're saying: unless you have enough solar power in your network to power the whole factory plus provide a large surplus, accumulators can only shift pollution from day to night but they can't change the overall amount of pollution.

By the way check out https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?tit ... priorities for a few tricks you can do now that may be more along the lines of what you're going for.

You may also find some inspiration in https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?tit ... r_Networks, which you can use to help reduce usage to specific parts of your factory.

Cool thanks! I already found the first link. I never saw the second one before.

I finally set up my factory so it doesn't use steam power unless there's no other choice! My setup is based on this one: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6665
I haven't had much time recently to play this game. (How sad!) I'm getting a ten-second blackout every evening and I just realized it's because I didn't include enough steam pumps in my design.

My suggestion is intended to make it easier for people to set up their factory so that steam never runs unless there's no other choice. This is only useful if the factory has enough solar panels and accumulators that under normal circumstances steam doesn't run at all. I understand it's possible to accomplish this using existing parts. This is something that's challenging to set up and challenging to get right, and I don't think it's a "good" challenge. It's not fun (for me) to spend hours online and then spend lots of time fiddling with my factory, just to get the electric network set up the way I want it to. Once 0.13 comes out this will get a lot easier, and in the meantime I'll make do with the parts that are available.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from and why I want this, even if you don't agree with it.
My poor factory, which I haven't touched in days. I hope I'll be able to play this game again soon.

[ssilk]

To finish this: I have recently found also some very good arguments against priortiy changes. They are in the wiki (where else? )...

https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?tit ... he_game.3F

Why is the priority not configurable in the game?
[...]
The problem with all these suggestions (and needs) is, that the single solution is simple, but they are more or less uncombineable with the other suggestions. They are disjunct.

• That is eventually the biggest reason, why this isn't implemented yet in one or the other way.
• The other reason why this isn't implemented in this simple way is, that Factorio will get at some point some kind of sensor and more advanced Smart bus-sensor for that. This is on the Roadmap for the next versions.
• Reason 3 is, that if a manual switching of priorities (or other ideas) is implemented, this will need manual control. Factorio is about automatism, so this is a direct opposite to switch things on and off.
• You can have several Electricity/Electric networks, which is the one, you want to switch?

So this isn't that easy.

Ok, I have written the most of that, but I think the arguments are still valid. I think especially the 4th point is always forgotten with those suggestions. V0.13 will bring, that you want or need to separate the electric network into smaller parts. This is very unlike than now.

I don't know yet, what 0.13 will change, but I'm sure, that the users find themselves overwhelmed by complexity, if they can change priority in different networks. Or they are suggesting so, if not.

So: Not a good idea, until we know, how the game changes with the comming v0.13 release!

[JasonC]

So: Not a good idea, until we know, how the game changes with the comming v0.13 release!

I agree, can't wait to see what the changes are.

I'm not against the spirit of the original suggestion, but personally I'm hoping for more elemental building blocks (like relays, hysteresis, sensors for accumulator capacity and power levels, etc.) rather than simple user-configurable priorities, so that we can construct this system and more.

Just like in real life in the electric grid, you don't magically set priorities, you have sensors and relays and switches at key points on the grid to make sure things (theoretically) happen when they are supposed to. That's super fun to me - I want these things to be totally possible, but not handed to me in an inflexible way - I just want the components to build a complex system. Hoping for the best with 0.13!