[MOD 0.12.x, 0.13.x] Side Inserters

[seronis]

Except its not. It is a moving object with a point of origin and path of rotation. The icons and names ARE backwards. If you want it wrong its your mod. Its how you want. That doesnt make it accurately named or iconified. "I want it wrong" is an acceptible (if silly) reason for it being the way it is. But "its not wrong" is a falsehood.

[_cdecl]

The names are as concise and accurate as it gets, at least from my perspective. A right side inserter inserts to the right side. I don't even have to think about it.

[seronis]

Again thats the problem, it doesnt do that. A 'right side inserter' is inserting to the left, not the right. All the names and icons are backwards. Its trivial to fix but its still wrong by default.

[_cdecl]

oh I see what you mean now. The bob's mod compatible version that I use doesn't have that problem so I had wrongly assumed it was the case for the original as well.

[Zackreaver]

Whoa whoa hold up, while I can agree the names can be confusing to some people, the icons would be fine if the regular inserters simply had an arrow pointing directly up. Because then it's really easy to see what the other arrows are trying to indicate. Because it would relate to the inserters placement graphic. It's just that without an arrow going through the original inserter, there's an opportunity for confusion. It's not necessarily wrong, it's just conveyed wierdly.

The whole point of me bringing up a problem of conveyance is because I felt it would confuse most people, considering that I got confused seeing a "right" inserter picking up items and turning left, other people with that similar mindset might get confused in the same way as well.

But it's not necessarily "wrong" unless alot of people say it's wrong, because there could be other people out there who think from the angle the author was thinking of, and then by changing it to the way we believe is "right" would make it "wrong" for those people and we would be back to square one again. But the best solution is just making it as such so that there's no confusion at all from either side.

I feel the best way to fix the whole conveyance problem would be just to replace the icon of the original inserters with one that has an arrow pointing up, as by comparison you would notice what the other icons are indicating.

And if possible, reverse the names of the side inserters, the icons for the side inserters are fine if you consider what the author was looking for, but the names are outright confusing.

Forget that the inserter has an arm. Just think about where the item is moving from and to. It's a glorified item-pipe.

Yes if you think of the inserter as a pipe that's sucking an item and then moving it to the arrow, then technically the item is moving along a right turning path.

But these aren't pipes, they are inserters with arms, and as we play we are used to watching them pick up items putting them behind them. At first glance of your mod's icons the arrow doesn't really tell us anything because it's shape makes us think of turning, at second glance we read the name and when it says "Right" inserter we conclude that it's trying to tell us that the inserter will "turn" right. They may just be glorified item pipes but we read them as cranes rotating on a center base because that's what their animation is. Telling us to "Forget the inserter has an arm" would be the same as saying "You'll get used to it" and of course we will get used to it, but that won't make it less confusing to the people who haven't yet.

If the original inserter had an arrow pointing straight up then we could just relate that arrow with the curved arrow and figure out what it means. Though I still disagree on the names though, I feel more people are going to relate to the inserters position when they think of what it means by "right" inserter.

[Zeblote]

Again thats the problem, it doesnt do that. A 'right side inserter' is inserting to the left, not the right. All the names and icons are backwards. Its trivial to fix but its still wrong by default.

Again, the arrow is not about the way the inserter rotates, which is completely irrelevant. What matters, is where the item goes from the position it grabs it.



You can clearly see the belt making a right corner at the right inserter. I honestly have no idea why this is so complicated for you.

[seronis]

Its not complicated. And your picture clearly shows it went left. Counter clockwise == left. Directions are given based on the common frame of reference between source and destination. That would be the location of the inserter. It DOESNT really matter that the inserter rotates. That still ends up with the name and pictures being backwards. Which if the modder WANTS it wrong thats fine. Its his choice. Doesnt make it any less incorrectly labeled.

[Zeblote]

Its not complicated. And your picture clearly shows it went left. Counter clockwise == left. Directions are given based on the common frame of reference between source and destination. That would be the location of the inserter.

I've highlighted the movement of the items for you:



The "frame of reference" is not the base of the inserter, but the location where the item is picked up. Or are you also going to call the normal inserters "180 degree" instead of "straight"?

[seronis]

Well you draw a picture with faulty assumptions of course you get a faulty judgement based on those assumptions. There is no continuous flow with an inserter. There is an object at rest at Location 'A' that is moved counter clockwise to location 'B' and placed there at rest. The belts might move the object to location 'A' and from location 'B' but they are not part of the movement of the inserter. An accurate picture that makes no false assumptions would have the inserter moving objects between 2 chests. You still label the movement from the frame of reference. Thats a counter clockwise movement. I'm sorry your logic fails. Cant help that.

IT ALSO DOESNT MATTER.

As i've said if the OP wants it labeled wrong thats fine. Its their prerogative to do that. Youki Industries I believe also badly spells some things and uses slang grammar intentionally. Nothing wrong with that. Its a design choice. Just dont call it something its not.

[Zeblote]

Well you draw a picture with faulty assumptions of course you get a faulty judgement based on those assumptions. There is no continuous flow with an inserter. There is an object at rest at Location 'A' that is moved counter clockwise to location 'B' and placed there at rest. The belts might move the object to location 'A' and from location 'B' but they are not part of the movement of the inserter. An accurate picture that makes no false assumptions would have the inserter moving objects between 2 chests. You still label the movement from the frame of reference. Thats a counter clockwise movement. I'm sorry your logic fails. Cant help that.

???

[seronis]

Reference frame == point of view of action. Standing at the reference frame what direction do you turn to go from source to destination? left.

Seriously if your logic is this bad i cant help you.

[Zeblote]

Using a normal inserter, noone cares how it turns. It has no gameplay relevance.



You can just imagine the inserter as a pipe that goes straight from the pickup to the target:





The same goes for the side inserter. It doesn't matter how it rotates.



Gameplay wise it's still just a pipe that goes around a right corner from the pickup to the target:

[_cdecl]

seronis, why is the direction of rotation of the arm more important than the direction that the items go relative to their pickup point? My intuition says otherwise since the purpose of the inserter is to move the items from one point to another. I don't really care how the inserter does it, since that has no bearing on the result.

[seronis]

why is the direction of rotation of the arm more important than the direction that the items go relative to their pickup point?

As i said multiple times the rotation of the arm is not the reason its wrong. The direction the items go relative to their pickup point IS MY ENTIRE POINT. The fact they go left with the 'right inserter' and they go right with a 'left inserter' is why its wrong. Direction of movement is based from the origin / reference point of the movement. With fluids in a pipe the object moving is its own reference point thus its 'turning right'. With an outside object causing the movement IT becomes the reference point and movement is labeled base on where the destination is relative to the source. It wouldnt matter if the game animated a lightning flash to make items disappear in one place and reappear at the destination with no visible movement. You label movements based on local frame of reference. Thats how physics works. Doing anything else is wrong. But in the end i've said I dont care that its wrong. When i originally downloaded the mod and saw it was backwards all i thought was "bugs happen. modder accidentaly labeled things backwards" and i fixed my copy. It wasnt important enough to complain about since humans make mistakes. If he wants to leave it wrong thats fine and his reasons dont matter. But saying its anything but mislabeled is idiocy or at least incorrect. Zackreaver felt like correcting the issue. He explained it very clearly. I only spoke up because someone doesnt understand basic logic and THAT offends me because I think humans are inherently MORE intelligent than lab monkeys and when someone tries to prove that idea of mine wrong it bothers me.

[Darloth]

Please don't change the names of the inserters. I also subscribe to the "resource flow is direction" argument that Zeblote is making, and feel the need to post to say that I like it just how it is right now, thanks.

Oh, and to make this a little bit more of a useful post... I really like having inserters in their own separate tab (with the Near Inserters mod)!

[_cdecl]

I finally see what you mean. From the perspective of the item it is moving left when picked up by a right inserter. Of course that depends entirely on the local coordinate system of the item. I could define the reference point in the opposite direction: the current names would still be correct and nothing has changed functionally. The nice thing about physics is that you can apply arbitrary transformations and reference point definitions, and still get the same results as another person. For the purposes of this game, the player is standing in world space and is observing the transformation from that perspective. I honestly don't care what the object sees and I'm sure many others would agree.

[GotLag]

Please don't change the names of the inserters. I also subscribe to the "resource flow is direction" argument that Zeblote is making, and feel the need to post to say that I like it just how it is right now, thanks.

I'm not changing anything. This mod has existed with the same names and icon theme for about two years, in various incarnations. This is the first time anyone's had any trouble with the concept.

Oh, and to make this a little bit more of a useful post... I really like having inserters in their own separate tab (with the Near Inserters mod)!

Thanks for the feedback, that's what I was hoping to achieve. Adding 5 or 10 items I could justify squeezing into the old location, but 25 I think deserved its own tab.

[orzelek]

I noticed that smart inserter has not been moved to separate tab. Might be tons of mods I have - should it be moved ?

[GotLag]

If Near Inserters detects that Side Inserters is also present, it moves the standard inserter types (burner, basic, long-arm, fast and smart) and the side/near versions to a new tab. Perhaps another mod is being loaded afterwards and moving the smart inserter to a different group.

[orzelek]

It's a conflict with bobslogistics mod. It's enough to disable near/far inserters there to get it working nicely.
Only drawback is that special long inserters from boblogistics remain on first tab. Could be nice to move them to your tab - might need some careful tweaking to do that.