Remove or Miniaturize Circuit Networks

[piriform]

So I'm confused. Why is something like this WRONG?

cpu.jpg (77.85 KiB) Viewed 6658 times

[kovarex]

With 0.13 there will be very handy (!and simple!) setups with combinators, that will allow things not possible without them.

For example the supply train + smart inserter configured to filter items that are missing in that expansion.
That was only solvable smart inserter + chest per every item type you wanted to supply, and you had to manually setup it. Now it will be possible to do it with single inserter and chest.

This is just an example, there will be more things obviously.

[Neotix]

About combinators from my point of view. Im not electronic nor programmer. I don't have vast knowledge about logic circuits (just basics from college). But because of combinators i'm passively learn it while relaxing in game. People are posting insane (for me) construction with so many different solutions that expand my knowledge and I can replicate it step by step and add some changes/adjusments. Looking on combinators is like looking inside machine where i can see how each element works. I'm from generation that assembled computers manually part by part and i like to know how things works. Today generation is different, they get computer/console as one closed box, and know only where push the power button. That's why for many young players that combinators arrays may be pointless and they want one box that do what they want.

[Hexicube]

- several posts -

Here's several issues I've got with your arguments:
1. You act like the circuit network existing has a large detrimental effect on your experience, when it's just a small amount of crafting menu clutter and no UPS loss (the code doesn't need to run when there's no connections).
2. You assume the steam forums are the majority of the player-base. Sure, it's more people than the forum, but they didn't think to look up the official forum. There's also the huge chunk of people who don't use either.
3. You use a ridiculously small sample size and assume it's representative, when in reality that sample size is embarrassingly small (0.02%) and ignored one of two main methods of acquiring data (is biased).
4. You're actively suggesting a chunk of the game should be removed because you have no personal use for it. You say that you could just use chest filters, but those are limited to full stack sizes. You can't limit production to not exceed 20 accumulators because the stack size is 50.
5. You use realism in a setting where you get attacked by "biters", can hold enough assemblers in your pocket to coat the area of a city, can do research that somehow makes bullets do more damage even without crafting a new magazine, and that has homing lasers.
6. You've exaggerated the situation with the circuit network getting new toys to it becoming the dominant gameplay mechanic (which I doubt will happen), then used that to justify your "doomsday" theory about the game being balanced around it.
7. You're dismissing valid counter-arguments because you have a thrown together solution.

The circuit network is a nice feature for players to use if they feel the need to, there's no reason for it to be removed.

[MalcolmCooks]

can hold enough assemblers in your pocket to coat the area of a city

thought I'd do the maths on this, and it's not even an exaggeration

player inventory size is 60 slots, plus 20 quickbar slots with toolbelt researched. Assembler stack size is 50 so you can carry 4000 assemblers. Assemblers are 3x3 tiles, if each tile is 1 m^2 then one assembler covers an area of 9 m^2. To place them in a functional way, you must have space in between. A fair assumption would be to place them in rows, with three tiles in between, for a belt with inserters either side. So, in this configuration each assembler covers and area of 13.5 m^2. Full inventory of assemblers would then cover an area of 54 km^2. I found many many examples of cities with a smaller area than this.

[Zeblote]

So I'm confused. Why is something like this WRONG?

cpu.jpg

Has anyone that isn't you actually figured out how that works?

I don't like these combinators, most of the constructions that you didn't build yourself make no sense. It's insanely hard to follow the logic with little wires crossing all over the place and you have to open every single one to see its settings.


Also, that shouldn't take up a huge area like in your screenshot. Or if it does, what are the blue processing units we make in assemblers?

[Klonan]

So I'm confused. Why is something like this WRONG?

cpu.jpg

Has anyone that isn't you actually figured out how that works?

I don't like these combinators, most of the constructions that you didn't build yourself make no sense. It's insanely hard to follow the logic with little wires crossing all over the place and you have to open every single one to see its settings.


Also, that shouldn't take up a huge area like in your screenshot. Or if it does, what are the blue processing units we make in assemblers?

And im sure any gamer who hasnt seen factorio before would look at a screenshot and think "How does this even work? I can't make sense of any of it"

[Zeblote]

So I'm confused. Why is something like this WRONG?

cpu.jpg

Has anyone that isn't you actually figured out how that works?

I don't like these combinators, most of the constructions that you didn't build yourself make no sense. It's insanely hard to follow the logic with little wires crossing all over the place and you have to open every single one to see its settings.


Also, that shouldn't take up a huge area like in your screenshot. Or if it does, what are the blue processing units we make in assemblers?

And im sure any gamer who hasnt seen factorio before would look at a screenshot and think "How does this even work? I can't make sense of any of it"

Everything else in factorio intuitively makes sense after you've seen it working one time. Inserters, belts, trains, involve no magic and just repeat the same simple actions over and over. Combinators are completely different.

Even if you have the setup right in front of you, it's still way too complex to figure out what it does. One major problem are those faint wires going everywhere.

Can you tell what that setup in the image does and how it works?

[bobingabout]

*an argument can be made that the plastic bars in factorio are semiconductive, because of their use in advanced circuits and processing units, though as far as I know all semiconductors we use are sillicon or germanium based, not carbon. Is it even possible to create carbon semiconductors? Anyhow, sillicon is extracted from rocks, so if it were in Factorio, I would expect it to be a stone-based resource.

Actually, any circuit requires 2 components. A path for the electricity to flow, made up of the conductive, and semi-conductive materials, and "Glue" to hold it all together, made from non-conductive parts. Plastic in this case is the glue, the non-conductive backbone.

...and has homing lasers.

Best argument ever!

[piriform]

Has anyone that isn't you actually figured out how that works?

Maybe not this one as it's a work in progress, but I can think of several people in this forum who have posted structures of equal or greater complexity. BTW I posted an earlier version of this along with a reasonably detailed explanation. I don't recall receiving any questions.

I don't like these combinators, most of the constructions that you didn't build yourself make no sense.

I get it. You don't like these combinators, as they are not the easiest things to wrap your mind around. The thing is, NOBODY is forcing you to use them.

It's insanely hard to follow the logic with little wires crossing all over the place and you have to open every single one to see its settings.

Finally, something we can agree on. There are ideas in the forum, on ease of use, and hopefully when the development team gets some bandwidth, they can look at them. In the meantime, I have resorted to drawing diagrams. See for example in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20732&p=137720#p137720

[Zeblote]

The thing is, NOBODY is forcing you to use them.

It looks like the devs want to integrate them more in the game:

With 0.13 there will be very handy (!and simple!) setups with combinators, that will allow things not possible without them.

For example the supply train + smart inserter configured to filter items that are missing in that expansion.
That was only solvable smart inserter + chest per every item type you wanted to supply, and you had to manually setup it. Now it will be possible to do it with single inserter and chest.

This is just an example, there will be more things obviously.

I'm not saying "remove combinators", I want them to be more user friendly. They're basically all black boxes after placing them down. There isn't even a hint which side are the in/outputs.

[Neotix]

It's insanely hard to follow the logic with little wires crossing all over the place and you have to open every single one to see its settings.

Sadly it's true. Sometimes wires are barely visable (green is almost invisible) or connection are too close to each other and it's hard to deduct where that wire is connected.
Also we don't have easy access to see entire condition setup. We don't just press ALT and see all setups.

BUT it's not game-breaking factor, it's just inconvenient and I'm sure that it will be improved.

[Yinan]

As far as I know (might have been on an FF somewhere) they want to rework the whole logic wire thing and make it easier to use.

Oh, and removal is out of the question. That just doesn't make any sense to remove the feature all together seeing that there are a lot of people who use it and have fun with it.

[Player 1]

I really should get back to replying to this topic, but this is colliding with marine training, so I will have to get back to you guys in a week or two. Toodles.

[MeduSalem]

I'm not saying "remove combinators", I want them to be more user friendly. They're basically all black boxes after placing them down. There isn't even a hint which side are the in/outputs.

True story, there is a 50:50 chance to get it face the right way and I always pick the wrong one (especially if I haven't been playing for some time) and I only realize it once I have configured everything and hooked everything up to it and wonder why it doesn't work... ARGH.

An arrow like with the inserters should be there to indicate the input/output sides.

[Aardwolf]

As much as I find the suggestion to remove it very troll-ish and as much as I love circuits here, in minecraft, etc..., the original post does have a point:

Explain why big buildings giving out high power sparks to wires are needed for basic logic operations, when there are small circuit boards, processors. AI robots and inserters with item recognition in the game?

Having them smaller and less high-voltage-building-like may make sense. Lrave the high voltage look for power station related stuff

[Neotix]

Because it is more understandable. Everything is on top and on one screenshot you can see how the whole thing works. A small plate with hidden circuits is contrary to the spirit of the game. Ie the use of simple elements to build complex structures.

Besides combinators are more educational because we're using basics.

[MalcolmCooks]

Explain why big buildings giving out high power sparks to wires are needed for basic logic operations, when there are small circuit boards, processors. AI robots and inserters with item recognition in the game?

First, there is no sillicon processing in game. miniturised electronics work only through semicondictors, which appear to be non-existant in factorio*. I imagine that the circuitry in Factorio is actually very macro-scale, such asthis eletromechanical lift controller. You'll be quite amazed at the capability of purely mechanical systems as well, such as old mechanical calculators (several examples can be found on youtube channels like numberphile and standupmaths), and it's even possible to build binary calculators out of dominoes.
Anyway the tech in Factorio is very ad-hoc, as it needs to be if you are to bootstrap yourself up to automated industry from hand tools in a very short time. Imagine that the basic green circuit boards are something like the lift controller linked above: huge slabs of macro-scale circutry, and the size of more advanced devices like combinators makes sense.

[piriform]

As much as I find the suggestion to remove it very troll-ish

I'm still wandering whether the original argument was theological or trollological Time will tell, I guess

Explain why big buildings giving out high power sparks to wires are needed for basic logic operations, when there are small circuit boards, processors. AI robots and inserters with item recognition in the game?

At a first glance, it does seem kind of silly. My initial reaction on encountering combinators was Now, of course, I see that combinators fit quite well in the Factorio context.
Which is not to say, they could not stand some improvement. According to FF, Release 13 will have some user friendliness improvements (i.e. directions, condition visibility,etc) which will be very welcome. I just hope they also fix the wire visibility issue, and add cut/paste with connections capability.

[Kirvesnaama]

I for one like the circuit network idea very much especially if they are adding more things to wire into. I would really like the option to fiddle with optimizing and directing some aspects more freely. Of course they should be optional, clearly not everyone likes them.

That said the miniaturization is something I would like to see. It feels very awkward when even some rather simple calculations take the space on the field of a basic oil refinery! The container with its own building grid for integrating some combinators between a pair of inputs and outputs would give the best flexibility in my mind. I even put together a simple picture of one:

Clearly the combinators for this stack-computer should look more like circuit boards/chips than the buildings now in the game but that's the idea anyway.