Friday Facts #129 - The late game

[RobertTerwilliger]

I would also propose 'hardcore difficulty' where tech costs scale with every tech researched so with 20 technologies, 21st would cost 20 times more than normal. Very nice resource sink and additional challenge for, well, hardcore players.

+1!

Maybe x2 is too much for first time, considering how many techs are there, so I'd add scalable multiplier. Rates are to be balanced, for sure. Also green, blue, alien science packs should be required after certain number of upgrades, not bounded to specific techs, thus involving early and mid game tech beelines, providing unique possibilities, like starting oil refining while already having "oil proceeding 2", which normally needs oil itself to research.

The game mode will obviously result in skipping all "damage" and "shooting speed" techs, so these are something that may require some kind of discount so people will still use them (e.g. no tech value rise on research without possibility to use this "discount" twice in a row, i.e. damage-other_tech-damage or if "other_tech" is replaced by discounted tech - it will still cause tech value rising, so next "damage" will cost the same x2, but overall tech value will be increased).
Or not, to force people choose whether they want to progress in cost of hardness or to increase defense/offense : )

[Goldminer]

Goldminer wrote:
thats the only disadvantage from solars ... they also overpowered at this point as they are now in my opinion. Energy is far too easy / cheap to get in this way^^

I could say the same about steam power. By boiling solid fuel you have unlimited energy for free. They also take much less space than solars and are much faster to set up. Totally OP.

Ok, partially you are right. But burning solid fuel in masses needs a steady flow of solid fuel needs Mines, Trains, setting up, planing and so on. Solar Power generation? Its "Energy to go" without any maintaining and for that its realy to easy and cheap.

But i think the Problem is not Solar or not, Spaceusage more or less, the Problem is, that the whole Energy-Concepts are lacking a deeper Concept and a evolutionary Contraption for Energysupply which means at Start getting Energy on a simple Way and getting more and more complex in an other ways as only setting up more and more of the same Builds. The Simplification and the Lack of a deeper Concept for Energy Supply is the Point.

Keeps the Question what the developers think about it and if they like to change anything of it. Its not done with more and more Power Plant Types. It needs a deeper Game Mechanic and a requirement for that on the conditions for setting up a Base specially bigger and Mega Base-Types and they´re needs for Energy-Consumption.

THIS is the lacking Part of a more pretentious Gameplay - specially in the late Game!

greetings

[mkor]

One of the Late Game problems is BITERS. At some point of game they are literally everywhere, to expand your mining operation or explore map you need tediously hack through infestation by foot, because vehicles become obsolete and useless, car too fragile and tank is slow but not much sturdier. Late game became boring and repetative that way just like very beginning, where you need to do everything by yourself. In game about automatization you can`t automate biter eradication, and that is annoying.
One of the solution could be nest mechanic, where actual spawners could only exist on and restrictedly around resource patches. At first it is only small spawner with few small worms but as evolution progresses they morph into mega structures capable of spawning large amount of biters and storing them inside as guard to pour outside in case of player attack. Also groups of biters should patrol areas around its nest or even cruise between nests, and if they found pollution they go to investigate it`s source. Additionally nests from time to time can build small outpost around itself with considerable distance between them as some kind of marking it`s territory, they consist of several worms and a structure called pollution\intruder detector. If pollution or player reach them, big task force of biters goona be dispathed from nests to eleminate threat. At big evolution values nests can be aware of each other and then several of them will dispatch their task forces simultaneously. This way you can freely scout area on cars, shooting at patrols, at any stage of the game and tank will become always viable for destroying outposts and fending off dispathed biters.

Other Late Game problem is POWER GENERATION \ SMELTING. They are too space consuming while lacking complexity. Late in the game you just copy\paste compact effective design on enormous scale, creating large fields. We need more compact and powerful things. They can be mega structures like spaceport and to build them you should use a lot of resources, time, research, special parts and good logistic.

[Marconos]

Other Late Game problem is POWER GENERATION \ SMELTING. They are too space consuming while lacking complexity. Late in the game you just copy\paste compact effective design on enormous scale, creating large fields. We need more compact and powerful things. They can be mega structures like spaceport and to build them you should use a lot of resources, time, research, special parts and good logistic.

This part is true in the entire game. Everything becomes copy / paste. Even the most complex parts of my base are just blueprints anymore. Adding more stuff isn't going to make any difference here. I also disagree on being more compact. Things need space to process. There is satisfaction in a large layout.

[Venatos]

yes to all! espezially need things todo after "finishing". i would realy like a tweak to the distance setting of the ore generation, even when turned to max, orepatches are way to common.

[Lochar]

What I'd like to see as a late game mining option is a 'strip miner' that is huge (9x9 or bigger) that converts a finite patch of ore to an infinite one. It would require large amounts of resources to build (electric engines, raw steel, etc) and create large amounts of pollution due to the fact that it's creating large holes in the ground.

Converting ore over to the 'oil' type, for every ore per second below 10 (or whatever number makes sense), it produces more and more 'worthless' rock that needs to be filtered out. Or use stone.

[Nasabot]

My way for resources - endless-resources mod, make the ore infinite, just like oil - weaker over time. You still have to expand and make new outposts, but there is no need to destroy old ones. I cant play without it anymore coz of depleted mines.

This is something I would not like, as it makes resource infinite but on the same time very tedious. Also there is too much fluctuation in terms of resource generation (if you compare 300 to 10% for instance). In my mod(Vanilla plus) I recently created, which is meant as a smart rebalance for the original game I introduced additional mining drills which have a bigger area of effect (in addition to better energy efficiency and increased number of moduls, from 1 to 2 to 3), whiles does not solve this issue but makes the situation better.

A good idea might be some kind of mechanic which works similar to the logistic network where robo ports get CONNECTED. Mines could also work with such a connction mechanic so that several mines combine their AOE. Also mining could then be "flattened" so that ore drain is distributed very evenly, so that a mining drill complex gets empty all at once.

[RobertTerwilliger]

some kind of mechanic which works similar to the logistic network where robo ports get CONNECTED. Mines could also work with such a connction mechanic so that several mines combine their AOE ... mining drill complex gets empty all at once.

Mining bots? : )
Or caterpillar mining crawlers, like in good old Tiberian C&C?))
Well, considering simplification we recieve when getting tons of L.bots, using some similar technique for mining looks pretty in the same concept.

personal preference

If I had to choose - I'd prefer big AOE mining machines, kinda self-moving drills, rather than swarm of tiny ones.
Also less entities = less pathing + less graphics = higher overall perfomance )
However tiny bots will fit more to interchangeability, since factory uses them in hundreds / thousands - it will tend to adjust same chasis / core to new task to keep production lines untouched.
But still I like more bulldozer diggers : D

[MeduSalem]

This is something I would not like, as it makes resource infinite but on the same time very tedious. Also there is too much fluctuation in terms of resource generation (if you compare 300 to 10% for instance). In my mod(Vanilla plus)

For the fun of it I have done some math on the topic:

At start an electric mining drill will get you 0.525 Ore per second (without Modules) (Formular can be found here: https://wiki.factorio.com/index.php?title=Mining_drills). So if you want to have let's say 2 express belts full of Iron Ore (~80 items sek, when compressed), you would need ~152 miners running, which require 13.68 MW.

If the degradation is similar to an oil patch... Taking your example going from 300% to 10% is 1/30... so instead of 0.525 ore per second you would get 0.0175 items a sec out of the miner, which means you would have to run a grandious ~4570 Miners to achieve the same throughput as above. They would consume 411.3 MW of total power (82 MW with 2 EM2s using the 20% cap)

Using 1 Speed Module 3+2 Efficiency Module 3s: 0.02625 items per sec per miner, meaning you require 3047 miners to achieve the throughput, consuming 192MW power
Using 2 Speed Module 3s+1 Efficiency Module 3: 0.035 items per sec per miner, meaning you require 2286 miners to achieve the throughput, consuming 391 MW power
Using 3 Speed Module 3s: 0.04375 items per sec per miner, meaning you require 1828 miners to achieve the throughput, consuming 510MW power.

So with a degradation ratio of 1/30 you would require tremendous amounts of Miners and Energy if ratio would be applied to infinite Ore patches, which means you eventually still have to expand your map to acquire new ore patches because you can't really deal with that many miners.

The ratio would have to be balanced considerably (better than 1/30) or the base output of miners increased significantly. Maybe 1/10 or something like that. Then you would only need about 1500 depleted miners to fill 2 express belts.

If someone finds an error, let me know.

[Koub]

I'm dreaming something like this comes to vanilla : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWlcqdPJEPg
There is already a mod that does it : viewtopic.php?f=93&t=12898, but I dream something so gigantic and excessive makes it into vanilla, because yes, we can .

[Zeblote]

but I dream something so gigantic and excessive makes it into vanilla, because yes, we can .

more like "because that mod's graphics look like crap and I know the devs would make a really fancy version"

[Goldminer]

One Solution to the Mining/Ore-Infinite / Ressourceefficiency is to generate Orepatches like they are but they should have besides the surfaceore like it is and underground Ores for deepmining for a longer term use but not infinit. Take in Miningdrills, Mining Machines and Mining Consumables.


Mining Consumables are a Ressourcepackage similar to the Researchpackages but consumed while deepmining. Take some Ironsticks, Gears, Inserters, Explosives Belts and or other Parts you may imagine and put them together to a MiningConsumable. This must constantly delivered to run underground Mining.
And beside that, there may be Miningmachines which can beside Mining Drills gain a Bonus outcome but open deep mining as a long term Mining concept. Mining Machines should be produced like assembling Machines but inserted into a Mine like the Drills and Modules. Deep mining may realized as a Deeper and Deeper getting Process of Mining - Like a Surface Mine there Layer under Layer and for each layer down we may need additional Drills and Mining Machines. Think about 10 Layers of ore + Surface Layer. Surfacemining is free, the Starting Point. Later have to get the first underground layer we need Drills and Mining Machines. for the next Layer 6 Drils, 12 Machines, 9 Drills 18 Machines and so on. Ore Outcome will raise a bit the more Drills and Machines added to a mine.

There may be more Tiers in Miningdrills, Machines and MiningConsumables. Put them inside a Mine like we now use Modules to keep it simple.

The Idea is to Support and <u>Maintain </u>, to grow a Mine and add to the outcome of the Mine with additional Machines and technics. It will grow the Main-Base with additional Constructionlines - that will gain more and more complexity and add deeper Gamemechanics in this Part of the game - more automation more fun!
<i>
To Maintain a Base should give the Player reliable tasks, not demolish/rebuild-frenzy.
</i>
I hope you get the Idea my english is limited :>

[Koub]

I wouldn't dare I have graphic skills a 4 year old could beat easily

[mkor]

Take in Miningdrills, Mining Machines and Mining Consumables.

Mining consumables are bad idea, requre too much resources to get resources. But other than that is pretty nice idea, make drills and machines degradeable and we can get something good.

[vanatteveldt]

Take in Miningdrills, Mining Machines and Mining Consumables.

Mining consumables are bad idea, requre too much resources to get resources. But other than that is pretty nice idea, make drills and machines degradeable and we can get something good.

That depends on the recipes though, right?

I can imagine that a deep mining drill that would require a continuous supply of electricity, water, iron/steel and explosives, with a very low consumption of the metal and explosives. This could produce the desired ore, or a "dirty" version of the ore, plus maybe stone or dirt that you would need to get rid of somehow

[Goldminer]

Take in Miningdrills, Mining Machines and Mining Consumables.

Mining consumables are bad idea, requre too much resources to get resources. But other than that is pretty nice idea, make drills and machines degradeable and we can get something good.

Na, thats not the case., it meant to be consumed over time, so that you get more out than you have to put in. Its neccessary to calculate that a bit and balance it out - maybe you gain more per miningconsumable the more mining machines "working" inside a mine or they lasts longer. Question of balancing it out in my opinion.

It should take a bigger task to get and hold mines running and consumablepacks is one thingy we need in the game- maybe not only for mines ^^

[n7m6e7]

well, What about remote base building?

a system to set up blueprint buildings from the map. Maybe a train-mounted robo-port? so one can set up rails running past resources, let your bots build bases, and clear them out when its depleted.

[Broken Iris]

Long time lurker here, but I know space platforms were put on the back burner. Possibly they could be brought back in to help with late game by making them into global beacons?

By sending up supplies to expand the space platform you can make it so that (I know I'm asking for yet another entity... and heaps of programming) special research labs can add extra bonuses to productivity, efficiency, or speed to all buildings planet-side. or specialize it to particular buildings (such as the mining drills.) In order to keep the bonus going you would have to ship (or produce) science packs to the space platform there by allowing the planet-side factory to have a reason to keep producing science with global bonus costing more in science and specialized costing less to maintain. Possibly in the special research labs you could create mineral probes (ala Anno 2070?) to help keep planet side mining fields going in the same position so that you don't strip and lift mining posts as often. It rather becomes yet another step in automation in production to supply the mining bases with probes and then sending back the supplies to the space platform. Then (man I'm greedy here) after a while you could use the space platform as a central hub to teleport between different mining posts and factories (hopefully with resources in general "richer?" and more spread out, I do like that idea.) by using a teleportation platform (really late game)... or perhaps instead of teleportation use rockets to travel to different areas? would give a reason to create and spread out rocket silos to different areas.

I admit this would be a ton of extra work to do, and perhaps not all of it would work. But I think that would be better than having another tier of miners that you would have to build.

[Koub]

Well even without space platform, we could make more use of space and rockets. There are already 3 mods allowing to make good use of the rocket mechanic. I'd love to see this in vanilla, plus other uses there could be of satellites :
- Good radar (big area, real time refresh rate)
- Satellite exploration ( like Satellite uplink mod). Be able to direct a viewpoint that explores for you. Could be used in conjunction with the following (but no remote building, too OP imho)
- Orbital weapon (like the Orbital Ion Cannon mod). High energy weapon on orbit to tear down bik chunks of biter colonies.
- Energy production (like the Solar satellite mod). Use solar energy in space + microwave transmission to generate power.
- Geological survey (find underground = infinite ore patches). The more you send, the further from starting point you detect.
- ...

Don't make a space platform - for now. Let it be a swarm of satellites, you can always decide later on that you can make a space platform of all this.

[MalcolmCooks]

Don't make a space platform - for now. Let it be a swarm of satellites, you can always decide later on that you can make a space platform of all this.

Yes, I agree. Orbital mechanics are so different from objects sitting on the ground that it risks spoiling the relative realism of the game. Space layer can remain invisible rather than being a physical place.