Friday Facts #129 - The late game

[xad001x0w]

Robominers seem like a logical progession to me.

You would have a miner port and then miner beacons

Beacons could have a 7x7 aoe like medium power poles and connect back to the miner port with cables.

Robots will then head out and mine any ores covered by beacons and dump it back in the minerport where it can be extracted or maybe automatically dropped out like existing miners.

Minerports should have range like existing roboports so you can't just string beacons 5k tiles away.

Allows more control of what you are mining than other robominer ideas and is significantly easier to set up than existing mines and belts.

[torham]

Robominers seem like a logical progession to me.

You would have a miner port and then miner beacons

Beacons could have a 7x7 aoe like medium power poles and connect back to the miner port with cables.

Robots will then head out and mine any ores covered by beacons and dump it back in the minerport where it can be extracted or maybe automatically dropped out like existing miners.

Minerports should have range like existing roboports so you can't just string beacons 5k tiles away.

Allows more control of what you are mining than other robominer ideas and is significantly easier to set up than existing mines and belts.

I absolutely LOVE this idea.

[Chaoseed]

But the problem arises if they don't intend on building a huge factory, but they are simply completionists, so they force themselves to work on it even when they don't enjoy it anymore. I can imagine, that one of the solutions could be to allow infinite technologies. You can, for example, research laser turret damage for as long as you would like, but every level is twice as expensive compared to the previous one. This solves the problem, as you can't just "finish all the research".

So basically what you're saying is, "If you want to complete all the research, f*** you"?

[zakthefallen]

Who the heck plays Factorio just to complete the research tree? Research is a means to an end, to get better tech to take on the aliens and protect your stuff. Of course, it's also to build awesome bases and automated production lines.

Having an option to continue certain research endlessly is a GOOD thing, Chaoseed. If you don't want to do it, then don't. But for those that do want something useful for their endgame research production lines, it offers a way to keep gaining small bonuses at the cost of exponentially rising demand for materials.

[NemesisZidar]

To be honest i dislike this direction because it doesnt target the late game really.
Its a balancing addition. The mining in the late game is not efficient and so uncomfortable so you search for ways to balance this by adding new things.
This is not a bad addition, dont get me wrong, i like that you are adding this layer and improve the whole mining process as it is one of the most undeveloped parts of the game, as there are two drills, one becomes irrelevant after 5 minutes of playing the game and then you are stuck with the other one whereas the mining process ever stays the same. So i appreciate the work to improve upon that, add layers to the mining and even get new inserters or transportation methods going (which i hope you do). What this game really needs for a better endgame is what i suggest now, taking feedback from several players i know and some i have seen writing elsewhere. Remember its and example of how to you can do it, but in my view i dont see a reason to not do it this way and it bundles together all the games strengths making it the logical way to go to fit to it. So treat it as an example of how it could work.

You would add to the late game properly with robot units as soldiers being produced with items you normally dont have to mass produce such as weapons.
Still yet, this isnt targetting the late game issue for me and many other players. Because as mining is important, the same question arises ever again, why even do it anyway? Theres no real goal to achieve that gives the mining and producing a purpose.
Or differently said, there is one but its underdeveloped. I talk about this one goal you can only have in such a game apart from ending it with shooting a rocket into space and thats doing WAR.
You are on a planet with aliens attacking you no matter what, they get stronger and evolve and you want to get rid of them.
What you could and should do now, is to give this whole process of mining and producing a purpose, with adding new mechanics and gameplay elements of fighting these creatures.
In fact, you could even add a whole new RTS layer on top of the game to fill that gap.

THIS would add to the late game. Not making the mining more comfortable. What you showed here is only balancing something that can become tedious, not really adding on top of what exists.
Not that i dislike if you add it. I just want to make sure you guys dont forget this games current flaw of lacking real endgame directions. As you could have quite alot of these and doing war with aliens seems to be one of the major ones you have to go. Not even saying that my suggestion also adds to the multiplayer experience AND offers alternative ways of how to play the game.
As it adds a whole new production line to the game, producing weaponry in masses and building soldiers in masses, forging armory in masses and mass producing ammunition. All of this together in one facility makes a new weapon facility. We already have a research facility currently (focussing on creating flasks to research), we have energy facilities (focussing on creating solar panels and other things needed to create energy), building facilities (facilities focussing on creating items you need to build, such as walls, concrete, pipes, belts and other logistical stuff), Bot facilities (focussing on creating what is needed to get more bots and whatever is surrounding them (like repair tools) but what is lacking is a weapon factory.

At the moment you have loads of items in the game, which are produced only about one time every game or so rarely that it doesnt need to be mass produced. I talk about guns and tools such as the pickaxe or the armor.

A solution to add a new layer of endgame for those who dont want to "finish" but go one "forever" with raging WAR on the planet, is to add robot "soldiers". Which could be produced with parts you normally wouldnt need to produce more than one time. Like an SMG, an armor, some other spare parts like an engine or whatever and ammunition. These robots could for example look like the robots in the movie "Chappie" or they could be spider-like bots.
No drones flying around though. So this would get rid of the problem of having items you will never produce again after one time, such as the shotgun, the SMG or Pistol, because then you need one for every new unit, same goes for tier 1 or 2 armor.
What would this do?
It would let you produce units, just like in an RTS, but with the mechanics of mass production of Factorio, keeping what makes this game great but adding more layers to keep you playing and producing even in later game.
Because people ever ask themselves: Why even go on mining and producing?
-Only to defend and attack what is dangerous to me, as there is no wealth and nothing to use this wealth for. Whether i now have 10k belts and inserters in my stock doesnt give me anything, having produced 10k SMGs doesnt help me either. It has no point in mass producing stuff and even search for new mining spots when i cant use what i have mined.

With producing of robots in this game and commanding them, you could not only get rid of doing this all the time personal, especially as later it gets tedious and has you spending a large amount of time killing enemies instead of focussing on enhancing your production. Also this would add a layer of infinite playing the game, as with producing your own soldiers with command options, you leave the players new ways to play the game, conquer the planet or even attack each other, but especially you have a real reason to get new ressources to mine and produce things, because you need masses of weaponry and ammunition to support your own army.
This could even be enhanced much further with things already being in the game, such as making tanks and jeeps being drivable later. In fact, you would have all the things needed to turn this whole game into an RTS, as you have mining ressources, building drones as worker units, light vehicles and armored vehicles. Just missing some AI to control them.

How would this work?
Adding an item that is a command station. Entering it (with the enter button) you get into this station (maybe a commando console you place somewhere) and you get a new interface that lets you do the classic tasks of RTS games, such as selecting units, giving them movement commands and attack commands. Done. Basically this doesnt even need to be that enhanced to work quite well. It needs many additions in form of new items though.
Pathfinding is already in the game, AI aswell and also the automatic targetting of hostile enemies is in the game. Basically these Robots would server as something like a moving gun turret and nothing else. Just looking cooler and having the advantage for you to not having to run to a nest and placing turrets there so that they shoot the nest.

This is a concept of how it could improve upon the lategame and keep the strong points of the game. This concept can be altered and changed.
What i wanted to make clear is that it is lacking endgame gameplay directions. One direction to go for is war against aliens.
Which also involves not only to have units to control and do the war for you, but also stronger and more different enemy types and bugs. For example i would love to see flying bugs, bugs getting through water, adding new things you have to take care of.

Also, that guy on page one is right, STeam Engines emit steam, not smoke. Only the boiler emits smoke. You have a quite detailled game, dont ruin it with such things.

[Gecko]

Who the heck plays Factorio just to complete the research tree?

In fact, many people consider their game finished, once they got all the research done. The rocket may be sent X times to wherever but it's not satisfying. Having the tech tree completed however is very very satisfying. It's the look of a complete green 'T' window what gives me the feeling: Yea, I did it again. Once more I finished the game. I have to admit I only launched one rocket for the sake of launching it....

The idea with the robots mining the ore instead of drills is IMHO a really good idea. Not just for 'endgame' but as a viable research perk in the robotic age. Utilizing the existing robot base and extending it with drilling tools to create a third kind of robots.

[Ilirea]

Personally I like the announced balancing changes, but I'd really hate not being able to complete the research/tech tree.
Completing the research is way more satisfying than launching even hundreds of rockets.

[Zeblote]

Completing the research is way more satisfying than launching even hundreds of rockets.

That's more because launching a rocket is not satisfying in general. After collecting thousands of resources, you have one fancy animation and... that's it?

I really want to see the spaceship building at some point

[MeduSalem]

Robominers seem like a logical progession to me.

[...]

Could be a way to go about it...

• Craft Mining Robots
• Put Roboport into an area with resource patches
• Put down requester chest(s) and set the type of resource(s) you want to be mined as request
• Enjoy

Would render electric miners obsolete at late game at the expense of tremendous amounts of energy the mining robots use. No Mining drills, no power poles, no chests/belts...

[Zeblote]

As long as robominers aren't more unrealistic flying bots... wheeled ones would be nice

[indjev99]

I don't want this to seem like spam, but I would like to link this relatively old suggestion as I think it perfectly fits the theme of this FFF: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10052

[MeduSalem]

As long as robominers aren't more unrealistic flying bots... wheeled ones would be nice

True story. If I would have had to say a word on initial implementation of Robots I would have made them move on the ground and work like logistic robots work in reallife:

b_5.jpg (15.98 KiB) Viewed 8090 times

They can only follow the yellow lines and that is it for them.

I would have made the Factorio robots work in a similar way... You would have to lay out pathways. The bots then would find their way on the pathways on their own, which means you would be putting a limit on how many competing robot there can be on a particular route. And you would have to make room for these paths in your factory.

To balance the downside the robots would be able to deliver a full stack or so.

But I know it is not like that because of construction robots and so on, but these could be allowed to move off track through the factory.

[bumpinthenight]

I'd made myself a mod that adds a set of infinite copper & iron patches that yes function like the oil does where initially they return about half rate of a regular but eventually dwindle to nearly nothing. I did it so I could create permanent mining stations to make my train network feel more permanent and yes to escape the late game constantly uprooting mines routine. One thing I couldn't figure out though was how I could make those patches only start to appear *very* far away from the starting location(like 100+ chunks away as minimum spawn) and to grow in density with further distance. If anyone actually knows the magic values I'd need to input for that sort of spawn mechanics I'd really appreciate it!

I'm super stoked for .13's train additions, please release .13 soon!

[torham]

Robominers seem like a logical progession to me.

[...]

Could be a way to go about it...

• Craft Mining Robots
• Put Roboport into an area with resource patches
• Put down requester chest(s) and set the type of resource(s) you want to be mined as request
• Enjoy

Would render electric miners obsolete at late game at the expense of tremendous amounts of energy the mining robots use. No Mining drills, no power poles, no chests/belts...

Awesome. As a side-note, this setup just screams for some sort brand new chest belt loading device, but that may be too controversial...

[Arch666Angel]

Just for the argument: This is what you get when combining RSO and Angels Ores. (Example is a bobs ore, but its the same principle for the base ores)

As for late game mining, all these ideas that have been tossed in this thread are cool and would be a nice addition, but they wont change the basic problem with resources, you put up your mining operation and after a given time x you have to move it to another patch. I would rather like to see something from the devs that cannot be modded into the game already (btw there is a robo-miner in MoMods I think).

[xad001x0w]

Robominers seem like a logical progession to me.

[...]

Could be a way to go about it...

• Craft Mining Robots
• Put Roboport into an area with resource patches
• Put down requester chest(s) and set the type of resource(s) you want to be mined as request
• Enjoy

Would render electric miners obsolete at late game at the expense of tremendous amounts of energy the mining robots use. No Mining drills, no power poles, no chests/belts...

The only reason I don't like this is there is no control over what you mine. If there is copper, iron, stone and coal all within range of a robo port then you are forced to sort all your ores. Not everyone enjoys the sorting mini game and you don't have to sort anything else in the game.

Using requester chests is one way but how will the game know whether to pull the ores from storage, a provider or a mining robot?

If you have some way of marking an area to be mined and just having your robots mine it (deconstruction planner at a very simple level, mining beacons at a more "lore friendly" extreme).

[DukeSatan]

Mining in factorio on the face of it is surface open cast mining, strip and move on, however in the majority of cases, the precious resources are actually underground. This could lead to vast commodities of resources at a given spot, now this could be planned as a late game requirement AND would need logistic robots to go down into the mine to dig it out. Thus allowing these new deep earth mines, a tech tree requirement to get to them including logistic robots AND would allow for simple collection and distribution via belts or trains. The output of a mine like this could be from 2 or 3 points, allowing pre split quantities to go in different directions at high output rates, 1 high speed belt might just cope and the amount mined would then be down to how many logistic robots were placed down the mine. This structure would need to be large, say 6x6 or bigger, need power, water and would be limited to the spots it can be used at (openings in the surface), in addition like the oil wells tap out, resource mines could have a reduction factor as the resources get harder and harder to acquire as the robots have to dig deeper and deeper. The result is a small resource late on in the life of the mine without the loss of the mine, so less player intervention of stripping down and better balance of the whole system. Suddenly running out of say copper can have a sudden and damaging effect to a game were everything grinds to a halt without any way to recycle items or produce what is needed to expand, ultimately ending in game over, no way to expand, no way to get the resources, no production to help expand.

On another note, what about a garbage resource which needs to be processed, reclaimed and either stored or burnt as fuel. Many of the industries in factorio could produce high quantities of refuse which initially could be collected into a zoned area and stored, later once a recycle tech tree research opens up a suitable recycle industry then the garbage could be picked up and recycled, there could be 5 or 10 different types of garbage to allow for a different percentage quantity of reclaimable resources, thus allowing from the output of the recycler such materials as iron plates, copper, plastic etc. Then the intelligent inserters will have a much better use of pulling away good resources which could go back into the production field or into box's for the player to collect for their own use. What ends up left could be just burnable rubbish which the recycler uses to help power itself and generates some pollution of its own. This would add a challenge to the whole factory setup where trying to be green would mean using better and better recycler machines and the additional modules could be used to adjust the recyclers overall ability, make it less power or higher output.

Anyway, just some thoughts which for me would make the later play in game more pleasing, having to tear down and rebuild an open cast mine repeatedly does get a little dull after the 5th time.

Duke.

[MeduSalem]

The only reason I don't like this is there is no control over what you mine. If there is copper, iron, stone and coal all within range of a robo port then you are forced to sort all your ores. Not everyone enjoys the sorting mini game and you don't have to sort anything else in the game.

Using requester chests is one way but how will the game know whether to pull the ores from storage, a provider or a mining robot?

If you have some way of marking an area to be mined and just having your robots mine it (deconstruction planner at a very simple level, mining beacons at a more "lore friendly" extreme).

Good point... If you want to use Passive/Active/Storage chests inside that robot network also dealing with the Ore/Coal/Stone you want to mine you would be out of luck.

The "deconstruction planner" avoids that problem to some extend. It would allow you to mark specific resource patches to be mined and it would transfer stuff temporarily to storage chests (if no requester chests are available) before dumping them into requester chests eventually.

But the deconstruction planner method comes with its own problems...

Lke what if 2 (or more) types of resource patches intersect one another? Hard to drag a rectangle around them. Single clicking around the edge is a chore...

Also what if "Dirty Ore" gets added to the game? Would the Robots continue extracting from that resource patch once it turns into Dirty Ore or do you have to move out and mark it from scratch once the entire patch turned into dirty?

So everything has its downside once more...

[Yttrium]

Another increase in cargo wagon size? I feel like the 30 we have now is good enough (as in trains dont get too big to handle) but it all depends on what the advanced ore processing is going to do.

[Fatmice]

Barrels are completely useless once Fluid Tank Wagons are integrated into the game in one of the upcoming Updates. It would make sense to remove the Barrels at that point as they don't add anything to the game then. So I cannot understand your argument.

Because how do you get those barrels to your base currently?

Let me take a wild guess: With trains.

So you already have to build a train network and trainstations to even use the barrels.

Once tank wagons are a thing you can skip the barreling/unbarreling part and directly fill the fluid of your choice into the Fluid Tank Wagons.

Where in this scenario would anyone need to do more piping if Barrels are removed in favor of Fluid Tank Wagons? If at all it would require you to do less!

I wouldn't remove barrels entirely. They are useful even after tanks can transport fluid but will be very niche use. 25 units per barrel is extremely nice for throughput that can not be matched with pipes. A single blue belt moving barrels is transporting ~29k units of liquid per min. The pipe's upper limit is much below 250 units/s. Thus for high throughput processing, barrels are king. But like I said, this is a rather advance use of barrels and mostly to do with bots and beacon builds and maniacs like me.