Friday Facts #116 - Strategy Guide

[Airat9000]

Still lost in all the Factorio concepts? Read about the 3rd party Strategy Guide: https://www.factorio.com/blog/post/fff-116

I have a big question!
Will all modes of working in 0.12.11 0.12.20 0.13.0 work?

rus
У меня главный вопрос!
Будут ли все моды работающие в 0.12.11 по 0.12.20 работать в 0.13.0?

[Rocksen]

I don't think there should be a guide. i mean they SHOULD just but it IN the game that would be the MOST useful thing to players of Factorio. although i understand that the game is changing alot and they have other things they want to put into the game.

I wouldn't really call the game complex, unless you add 10-20+ mods that change everything about the game and have HUGE factory lines just to make one item.
When i started playing the game (with out mods) it felt pretty easy going, the gameplay was smooth for the most part and with the item search feature that's coming it's going to make the game that much better. its not like theirs hidden features in the game, or hidden objects in the game, or really anything that would need a strategy guide. Maybe strategy guide is not the best way to describe it. although props to who ever made it though 100 pages is no joke.

again the game should have ingame help, descriptive text about each item and what you can do with said item, then maybe you can add that to the api so modders can do the same with the mods if they want to. options are good!
sorry for throwing ideas around.

anyway as for the other changes they all sound good to me i really can't wait to see how awesome this game gets as time goes on....maybe you should just hire that guy to do the ingame text/help =S

[FishSandwich]

I'm honestly pretty baffled by the amount of discontent with it.

Basically, everybody wants something for nothing, and the moment you take away that opportunity they'll complain.

[aka13]

The fact that a paid guide is openly marketed by the devs is a big no-go for me. I don't understand how this is possible and encouraged.

[Smarty]

I bought the guide and read 30 pages of it and i must say it is pretty good

Nice work exterminator

[Gandalf]

It's interesting how many people are actually angry about the mentioning of Xterminator's guide in the FFF.
FishSandwich is probably correct in that many people (including myself) simply don't want to pay for it. But I feel like there's a bit more to it.

Basically in the current state of the game not everything is covered by tutorials. So if you want to learn everything you have to do some research (i.e. read the forums & wiki or watch let's plays on youtube).
Of course in the long run all of this should be covered by in-game tutorials and little helpers like tooltips. But since the game isn't ready yet some of that is still missing. From that perspective it may appear kind of lazy from the developers to essentially say “Hey, the in-game help isn't ready yet, why don't you go buy this in the meantime”. I'm not saying it actually is, because what I'm seeing here is really just an honest attempt at sharing something useful with the community. Still it might be a good idea to clarify the motivation behind it and maybe give those tinfoil-hat-wearers an assurance about whether or not profit is being shared.

Mainly I really want to address Xterminator here and assure you that there are people who appreciate your effort. I'm pretty sure that what annoys most people isn't what you created but rather the way in which it was singled out by an official post from the developers. Some people might even be a little jelly. x)

[Ohlmann]

I appreciate Xterminator effort, I won't buy his guide as long as Paypal will have stupid payment policy that force a paypal account down my throat.

[Gravitas]

The fact that a paid guide is openly marketed by the devs is a big no-go for me. I don't understand how this is possible and encouraged.

You don't need a guide to play the game. Every single person playing Factorio has done so without the guide. So the guide is a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. I could understand getting upset if they released something that you couldn't play the game without buying, but as it is its an entirely optional expense. The maker of the guide worked hard on it and he'd like some compensation for his efforts, the creators of the game would like a strategy guide to exist and would also enjoy an alternate revenue stream. So if there is someone who wants to buy a strategy guide, or perhaps have something laid out more cohesively than the wiki / videos then that person has an option. So it is a win-win-win scenario.

Nothing is stopping anybody who is complaining from working on the wiki, or creating their own video guide. If you really feel passionately that someone charging for their work is immoral you are absolutely free to spend 200 hours creating the very best wiki / set of YouTube tutorials ever.

[ssilk]

My 2 cents about "merchandising": Factorio is like any other complex software (like an operating system for example). (*)
Which means: Nobody here can claim, that he knows everything about the game. I would also say: Even the developers are included into this view. For example: I learn nearly every week something new with Factorio.

So I think it's completely O.K. to put down your knowledge and make it available. And of course sell it. Cause why not? It's exactly the same as when you buy a book about Linux. Or any other software. The market is full of books about software and who would say that this is negative?

Indeed this is very positive. One effect for example is that it makes other existing other docs better with the time, cause they are in some kind of "natural competition" or an "evolution process" (simply: If a doc - for example the current wiki - is not good enough it just dies with time, cause it will not be read any more).

So if the above is true (there are other arguments like this), the rest is a logical conclusion:

Better documentation leads to more players.
More players lead to more sold games.
More selling leads to more money.
And more money to (hopefully) more development. But there are very good arguments till now, that this last sentence is true also in future.

It can be seen also from different perspective:
We have here the Star Wars-effect, that is, that merchandising (here in form of better support of the game-internals or newbies) leads to continuation of development. It doesn't matter how good or bad it is, the fact that it exists is alone enough (but of course the more better the better ).


(*) In my eyes it's a programming language, but that is a completely different subject

[aka13]

The fact that a paid guide is openly marketed by the devs is a big no-go for me. I don't understand how this is possible and encouraged.

You don't need a guide to play the game. Every single person playing Factorio has done so without the guide. So the guide is a 'nice to have' rather than a 'must have'. I could understand getting upset if they released something that you couldn't play the game without buying, but as it is its an entirely optional expense. The maker of the guide worked hard on it and he'd like some compensation for his efforts, the creators of the game would like a strategy guide to exist and would also enjoy an alternate revenue stream. So if there is someone who wants to buy a strategy guide, or perhaps have something laid out more cohesively than the wiki / videos then that person has an option. So it is a win-win-win scenario.

Nothing is stopping anybody who is complaining from working on the wiki, or creating their own video guide. If you really feel passionately that someone charging for their work is immoral you are absolutely free to spend 200 hours creating the very best wiki / set of YouTube tutorials ever.

For a change, you can try reading comprehension. I heard it helps.

I have no problems with paid guides and people who buy them. I have a problem when a dev is too lazy to do anything themselves, and rely on community driven-wikis and MARKET paid guides by someone else.

[Martc]

Developers, are not lazy. This is alpha version, that mean it isn't feature complete and anything is subject to change. So making guide and tutorial is wasting of time. Beta stage is time for guide, because game is feature complete.

[Xterminator]

I bought the guide and read 30 pages of it and i must say it is pretty good

Nice work exterminator

Thank you, I'm glad to hear that! In my mind this is just the beginning. I have been talking with several people who have provided excellent feedback and ideas for improvement, and I have already started work on implementing some of those. I feel the guide can only get better from here.

I appreciate Xterminator effort, I won't buy his guide as long as Paypal will have stupid payment policy that force a paypal account down my throat.

Just to clarify, you can pay for things through PayPal without having an account. You can use most major debit/credit cards and prepaid cards and I think even direct bank transfer, all without having a PayPal account.

It's interesting how many people are actually angry about the mentioning of Xterminator's guide in the FFF.
FishSandwich is probably correct in that many people (including myself) simply don't want to pay for it. But I feel like there's a bit more to it.

Basically in the current state of the game not everything is covered by tutorials. So if you want to learn everything you have to do some research (i.e. read the forums & wiki or watch let's plays on youtube).
Of course in the long run all of this should be covered by in-game tutorials and little helpers like tooltips. But since the game isn't ready yet some of that is still missing. From that perspective it may appear kind of lazy from the developers to essentially say “Hey, the in-game help isn't ready yet, why don't you go buy this in the meantime”. I'm not saying it actually is, because what I'm seeing here is really just an honest attempt at sharing something useful with the community. Still it might be a good idea to clarify the motivation behind it and maybe give those tinfoil-hat-wearers an assurance about whether or not profit is being shared.

Mainly I really want to address Xterminator here and assure you that there are people who appreciate your effort. I'm pretty sure that what annoys most people isn't what you created but rather the way in which it was singled out by an official post from the developers. Some people might even be a little jelly. x)

I agree completely. If people really need assurance that profits are being shared, I could post some type of proof of my donation to the devs at the end of each month or something, but I'm not sure that appropriate. The amount I'm sharing probably won't be to peoples satisfaction, but after PayPal fees and such I can't give away a huge amount if I want any compensation for myself. To clarify for anyone who is confused, this is not something the devs demanded or even asked for. I am choosing to give a small amount because I love this game and want to give back.

Also one other thing for people who are thinking the devs are lazy by doing this. They did NOT come to me and say "hey we need some more helpful info about the game but can't be bothered to do it ourselves". I came to them with the idea and they were kind enough to allow me to do this and to work with me and give me feedback on it through the whole process. I don't know of any other Dev team who would be willing to do this.

I have no problems with paid guides and people who buy them. I have a problem when a dev is too lazy to do anything themselves, and rely on community driven-wikis and MARKET paid guides by someone else.

You must not know the devs too well. The amount of work they put into the game is ridiculous. It's not that they are too lazy but rather that they don't have time because they are extremely busy making the game better. I think it's pretty awesome that they are so open to the community creating things like this, whether it be a guide, videos or anything else.

[Xterminator]

My 2 cents about "merchandising": Factorio is like any other complex software (like an operating system for example). (*)
Which means: Nobody here can claim, that he knows everything about the game. I would also say: Even the developers are included into this view. For example: I learn nearly every week something new with Factorio.

So I think it's completely O.K. to put down your knowledge and make it available. And of course sell it. Cause why not? It's exactly the same as when you buy a book about Linux. Or any other software. The market is full of books about software and who would say that this is negative?

Indeed this is very positive. One effect for example is that it makes other existing other docs better with the time, cause they are in some kind of "natural competition" or an "evolution process" (simply: If a doc - for example the current wiki - is not good enough it just dies with time, cause it will not be read any more).

So if the above is true (there are other arguments like this), the rest is a logical conclusion:

Better documentation leads to more players.
More players lead to more sold games.
More selling leads to more money.
And more money to (hopefully) more development. But there are very good arguments till now, that this last sentence is true also in future.

It can be seen also from different perspective:
We have here the Star Wars-effect, that is, that merchandising (here in form of better support of the game-internals or newbies) leads to continuation of development. It doesn't matter how good or bad it is, the fact that it exists is alone enough (but of course the more better the better ).


(*) In my eyes it's a programming language, but that is a completely different subject

^ This exactly. That's why I was and am so baffled by the amount of people who dislike this idea. It isn't any different than buying a manual on Linux, Excel or any other program or game.

Ssilk brought up a very good point that I hadn't even considered. Regardless of if I or anyone else made it, I think having more documentation about the game is good, free or not. Just like Ssilk said, it leads to more players and also challenges other sources of information to improve and expand and so on. I mean if someone who has never heard of Factorio found the website for the guide, sure they may have no interest in the guide or paying for it but they be intrigued by what Factorio is and come check it out.
As someone else said, no one forced to buy this. It is completely optional. Just another source of information for anyone who is interested.

Is it perfect? Certainly not. But I am already getting great feedback from people on way to make it better and have started on that already. It will only improve from here.

[aka13]

[Edited by Koub] Things are getting too personal. Please stay nice.

[The Phoenixian]

snip

snip

For a change, you can try reading comprehension. I heard it helps.

I have no problems with paid guides and people who buy them. I have a problem when a dev is too lazy to do anything themselves, and rely on community driven-wikis and MARKET paid guides by someone else.

See I have the opposite opinion here: For me this is simply another thing like showcasing Kolli's original automatic rail layer, and the belt gifs that were shown in FFF-38, or integrating the roadworks/floors mods into vanilla.

It's a way of looking out of the community and showcasing our best stuff. The fact that this time it's about something that costs money doesn't change that for me.

Besides, the whole thing about a game with a 90s (RTS) aesthetic getting a strategy guide is just deliciously period appropriate.

[MainTango]

[Edited by Koub] Things are getting too personal. Please stay nice.

[Ohlmann]

Just to clarify, you can pay for things through PayPal without having an account. You can use most major debit/credit cards and prepaid cards and I think even direct bank transfer, all without having a PayPal account.

I agree it's not your fault, but as a computer engineer, I tried for one hour to make paypal accept my card without account, and it refused to cooperate. Something say me there is an asterisk to the option to "no paypal account" that cover a lot of people.

[Loewchen]

[Edited by Koub] Things are getting too personal. Please stay nice.

[aka13]

[Edited by Koub] Things are getting too personal. Please stay nice.