Yuoki Industries - Addon Engines 0.4.20 (0.14.X)

[bs1110101]

I'm getting an error that says _ _yo_[ft_ _ /control.lua:3: attempt to index global 'game' (a nil value) when i try to load or start a new game. I've isolated this mod to cause it, as i can play fine without it. This is all on 0.12.16, 64 bit.

The only non-Yuoki mods i'm using are Diesel Generator, landfill, Oil Steam Boiler, Rail Tanker, and Supreme Warfare. Seeing as a few of those do the same things as stuff in this mod, is this error some form of mod conflict?

[Fatmice]

It can't be this mod since there are no game variable in the script. I wrote the script so I know. What version of this mod are you using? I'm not having any problems with 0.1.7

[bs1110101]

0.1.7, and i agree it's weird, but it must be this mod, or some interaction between it and something else, as it works fine without this mod.

[Fatmice]

There is no interaction that I know of. Besides, "_ _yo_[ft_ _ " does not spell _ _yi_engines_ _, which is what I'm expecting if it was this mod.

proper.jpg (614.54 KiB) Viewed 9154 times

Maybe you have another copy of this mod? Maybe one of the other mod is the culprit?

[bs1110101]

I'm still getting this error after disabling all non-Yuoki mods, and it loads fine with this mod disabled, i am completely sure this mod is causing the error i'm encountering.

[Dragonchampion]

The problem, I have found, is in those two files in the actual mod: new_code.lua, and control.lua. If you go to the lines specified, and replace "game.on_load(function()" with "script.on_load(function()" the mod will work fine.

[Fatmice]

The problem, I have found, is in those two files in the actual mod: new_code.lua, and control.lua. If you go to the lines specified, and replace "game.on_load(function()" with "script.on_load(function()" the mod will work fine.

There is no such line in new_code.lua. If you do, then you are not running 0.1.7!

I'm still getting this error after disabling all non-Yuoki mods, and it loads fine with this mod disabled, i am completely sure this mod is causing the error i'm encountering.

Why don't you reverse it? Does it load with only this mod and none others? Start a new game if you must.

[YuokiTani]

It looks you use the older 0.2.36 Yuoki-Version. Sure this will work with factorio 0.12.17 but YI_Engines 0.1.7 refers/needs to 0.2.37
you should try YI_Engines 0.1.6 or update to Yuoki 0.2.37 and test this all again.

Factorio throws errors also a little unspecific with random lines, so the problem can be way before happen, just when the error-handler think it's time to say something and use the last known or maybe matching message. Yep, this don't help you - but maybe this steps.
1.) Copy the complete Factorio - Directory
2.) Delete all Mods in this copy (not only disable)
3.) Redownload and Reinstall mods, begin with Yuoki's and for first run use only Yuoki to prove it's my fault
4.) add the other mods
5.) If the error happens again - that's Murphys Law - you can't play but you learn something ^^
6.) make a decision

[bs1110101]

I'm still getting this error after disabling all non-Yuoki mods, and it loads fine with this mod disabled, i am completely sure this mod is causing the error i'm encountering.

Why don't you reverse it? Does it load with only this mod and none others? Start a new game if you must.[/quote]
Aren't the other Yuoki mods requirements?
Anyway, i've now done this, and as i've expected, i've done something dumb in a very stealthy way. PFW isn't updated to 12.11+ yet, and not having engines installed made it not load, and thus everything worked. I guess that means my problems are fixed, save for asking someone to update that for 12.11+.

[Fatmice]

Aren't the other Yuoki mods requirements?

Of course, you were to test only the Yuoki mods. How can you claim that yi_engines were to be causing problems if you did not first test only Yuoki mods? Frankly, it is bad logical deduction.
The dependencies are clearly spelt out on each download thread if one cares to read.

1/ yi_pfw_0.0.6 needs yi_engines_0.1.7 and Yuoki_0.2.37
2/ yi_engines_0.1.7 needs Yuoki_0.2.37
3/ yi_railway_0.0.4 needs Yuoki_0.2.37

Anyway, i've now done this, and as i've expected, i've done something dumb in a very stealthy way. PFW isn't updated to 12.11+ yet, and not having engines installed made it not load, and thus everything worked.

I suspected as much. You did some brain-fart things then come to exclaim something is wrong. This is what I call "User Error."

I guess that means my problems are fixed, save for asking someone to update that for 12.11+.

What do you mean "someone to update that for 12.11+ ?"

yi_pfw_0.0.6 was updated when 0.12.11 came out and that was many weeks ago. So I don't know what you mean. Besides, yi_pfw_0.0.6 does not have any scripting so it can not be the source of any error other than sprite out of bound error, which is simply fixed by deleting crop-cache.dat. Other than that, there are only two other possible sources of error and that is Yuoki gave the wrong link to his yi_pfw_0.0.6 download or he forgot to update the control.lua in yi_pfw_0.0.6 to use script.* instead of game.*

BTW, it would be nice if you can fix this comment. yi_engines was never "borked" in the first place.

[Nasabot]

I experimented around with engines and power production and in my opinion the current version is very imbalanced or at least I do not know how to handle it.

I like the idea of massive power consumption but I identified some problems resulting from this.

First, the "old" content: energy through water leads to massive water consumption, which makes this concept almost unplayable. As of how "offshore pumps" work right now they generate as much water to allow 5100kW, this means, that you will need ~10 pumps for the "rheinsberg device"(which has 3 inputs) But even the 1.5 pipe can only supply 2-3 offshore pumps, so it is not possible to maximise the 50 MW of the rheinsberg device, not talking about the annoyance which occurs from needing so many off shore pumps.

I guess each offshore pump offers 600 Water per second(as each standard generator consumes 0,1 x 60 ticks Water and 10 standard generator = 1 offshore pump)

So this mechanic unfortunatly leads to a lot of inconsistancy for this mod. I come from bobs mod (where I rebalanced all the engines and boiler for myself, so I think I know how the mechanics work) and the water problem CAN be balanced, however, it would require to change numbers of efficiency to weird values.

When I have the 50 MW Rheinsbergerdevise with 3x3 offshore pumps it would in theory produce 9x5100kW, but when I maximize energy consumpion and have enough turbines on the other side, the maximum power production is ~30 MW(turbine capacity was 48MW) because of the lack of water. This indicates that each input pipe(rheinsberger) is only capable of transmitting ~10 MW)

Maybe the solution is to introduce a better water supplies, but then you would still face the problem of limited pipe water transmission.

Another solution would be to reduce ALL effectivity values of all boilers while increasing efficiency of all steam engines (100% -> 50% boiler effectivity, 100%->200% steam engine effectivity, 100%->50% water consumption). Then you can reduce overall waterflow while maintaining the consumpion of all fuels.
This is how Id do it.


Now to the new steam engine:
Its a very nice idea and I know its currently only in the mod for testing purposes, but I please you: dont forget to change the overheater from "electric" to "burner". Anything else would not make sense in the context of the mod! Currently the new steam power plant is a perpettum mobile, because the power plant can feed 1+ 50MW engine while requiring only 5 MW for the overheater + some energy for a small flow of input-water.


Next:
The whole Mechanical Force(MF) concept apears very weird to me in its mechanic. Its a fluid which gets heated by gearboxes? And then the temperature fluctuates like crazy? And if I put a storage after a gearbox the temperatur will go from ~100°C to ~40°C? How does this work?

And then the steam power plant outputs 400°C MF?(but only if the overheater had input of ~100°C water) I wonder how the mechanic works and how the temperature of MF determines energy capacity.

When I had a burner driven MF cycle, the overall effectivy was only 40% (5 MF-Burner, each 3 MW fuel consumpion, while output was only 6 MW). Also cascading gearboxes in order to increase the pressurefluids temperture does not work, it actually decreases! (1. gearbox->~100°C, 2. gearbox->~80°C)

Very weird all of this!


What I do not understand is, that this mod must require TONS OF TRUCKLOADS OF WORK to create all those fancy graphics and the creator must really be very skillful, but when it comes to consistancy of the mods mechanics, its just weird and imbalaned and also when I look on youtube there are guys who talk 40 minutes redundant stuff, while not explaining (but using) this mechanic...(because nobody, even the creator understands it? Is my guess)

I dont know if its possible, but I think MF should not be dependant on temperture but only of its quantity, because then its also easier to balance. (for instance if 1 fuelblock with 25MJ produces ~40 MF, then those 40 MF should produce up to 25 MJ in a generator, but currently its totally weird with the gearboxes and the temperatures...)

The overall concept of the mod is great, I hope all those inconsistancies will be fixed!

[YuokiTani]

as i said in other post ... (deleted)
it is different and it works, sure you need time to figure it out. if you don't have fun experimenting or solving puzzle you go wrong with this addon (also with pfw).

you and also other people misunderstand the difference between mechanical(electric) and thermal power that this addon brings into foreground.
as example the rheinsberg is designed for 50 MW thermal power ... the efficency is 98% -> results in 49 MW usable factorio energy but you need to take this out from the water (or other fluid) you can use different "engines" ... maybe a dytech/bob-steam engine with 300% eff, so you will get ~ 147 MW electric-power out. Of course, if you go with YI you maybe place a huge-electric-generator but all! generators have a efficency rateing below 100% - friction loss, transmission loss etc, so the HGE has high rotating mass and is a old design results in 88% efficency like some real-life generators. the total result is than 43,12 MW electric for your network.

and now compare to vanilla ... 50 MW -> 50% boilers (~256) = 25 MW therm -> Steam-Engine 100% eff (~49) -> 25 MW electric vanilla. it's your choice if you want a space saving design or a classic energy build.

i don't compare or change values from my mod to others. or do you know a mod that consider Yuoki-Industries ?

[kreyser_waryag]

as i said in other post ... (deleted)
it is different and it works, sure you need time to figure it out. if you don't have fun experimenting or solving puzzle you go wrong with this addon (also with pfw).

you and also other people misunderstand the difference between mechanical(electric) and thermal power that this addon brings into foreground.
as example the rheinsberg is designed for 50 MW thermal power ... the efficency is 98% -> results in 49 MW usable factorio energy but you need to take this out from the water (or other fluid) you can use different "engines" ... maybe a dytech/bob-steam engine with 300% eff, so you will get ~ 147 MW electric-power out. Of course, if you go with YI you maybe place a huge-electric-generator but all! generators have a efficency rateing below 100% - friction loss, transmission loss etc, so the HGE has high rotating mass and is a old design results in 88% efficency like some real-life generators. the total result is than 43,12 MW electric for your network.

and now compare to vanilla ... 50 MW -> 50% boilers (~256) = 25 MW therm -> Steam-Engine 100% eff (~49) -> 25 MW electric vanilla. it's your choice if you want a space saving design or a classic energy build.

i don't compare or change values from my mod to others. or do you know a mod that consider Yuoki-Industries ?

I agree with YuokiTani in relation to the efficiency of the generators and fully support it, and I agree with Nasabot against an incredible amount of water for powerful generators.

[Fatmice]

@Nasabot, you have much to figure out. Watch my YouTube video. It should help...hopefully.

[Nasabot]

I think I actually did watch some of your YT videos(if you are "RDirect") and there was something useful: the 0.8 pipes transmit fluid slightly faster, but the problem remains: It is not possible to provide enough water to the 50 MW boiler.


When I played around a little bit I found out, that water has a heat capacity of 1kJ per Unit, a property which is located in the Base folder. I think increasing this number to 4 while cutting water consumption of all steam engines to 1/4 would solve the problem the most elegant way as the specific heat capacity of water is actually 4,18kJ/(kg*K).

Again:

My problem is not really about not understanding the game mechanics, its rather that balancing limits the game mechanics

I just did another experiment: one 50 MW boiler + 3 evenly distributed rensuir turbines(3x11MW) and have one input line of water. The result is a power production of 15 MW, and the input line is OPTIMIZED(close as possible to the water because of fluid friction & using optimal pipes). This means you can NEVER run your boiler at 50 MW as 3x15 < 50. If your boiler is farther away from the shore you get even less power because fluid transmission goes down because of the friction.


I will try to balance the game by myself, but I just wanted to explain you my oberservations and propose some suggestions(increasing water heat capacity).

In my opinion the big strength of this mod is its energy system, however, it needs some fixing. Currently I play on a very small 320x320 map and want to create a selfsustaining powerhouse factory which gets its resources(for production AND energy consumption!) by the "profit from war". The small map should make the game challanging and also I want to avoid "exploits" like free energy(from solar panels or the new steam powerplant which is not yet fully finished by design and balancing). Because if space matters, solar panels actually become balanced

[YuokiTani]

I agree with YuokiTani in relation to the efficiency of the generators and fully support it, and I agree with Nasabot against an incredible amount of water for powerful generators.

i should make clear ... YI-Engines and YI-PFW are Addons to test some possible limits (game-mechanics, gfx-sizes, animations) of the game-engine and new play-concepts with this given factorio-game-engine.

So it is intend to figure out where is the limit, and bring my/your builds close to the given game-limitations. i tested and test concept and ideas and i like to do this. some recipes feels cheating or/and not final - this can happen. it's the same thing if you have Test-Mode Mod installed - you can use it or not - depends on you. Some things needs time to get it into the right position or i drop the idea/concept. If you expect a fully balanced addon you are wrong, even for YI i can't this promise.

i always try to make these addons a little more common for use, before i upload and smooth the recipes and graphics.

summarized:
- YI-E: MF gives you a different mechanic to play with for a higher efficent power-generation, and farms to avoid solar-power or endless coal-burning.
- YI-PFW: a complete new economic cycle - useful or not - try to build all things automated and feed this mega-factory-complex with power from profit only ... in my opinion you can't solve this in under 4 hours of gameplay (without robots) also if you know that you need to do.


@Nasabot
the game shows 50MW (rheinsberg) or 390 kW (vanilla-boiler) ... you should show me how you get 390 kW get out of one vanilla-boiler even with full water load ...
and if you would try feed MF into the rheinsberg you would go over 50 MW with a rensuir-setup ...

water-based setups

38.4 MW


39,6 MW with small reserves

from the other thread a Fatmice 55+ MW-build

[Fatmice]

screen2151208-2.jpg (184.21 KiB) Viewed 10104 times

[Nasabot]

the game shows 50MW (rheinsberg) or 390 kW (vanilla-boiler) ... you should show me how you get 390 kW get out of one vanilla-boiler even with full water load ...
and if you would try feed MF into the rheinsberg you would go over 50 MW with a rensuir-setup ...

If I am not mistake it works like this:

390 kW boiler increases heat of water by 390 kJ/s while consuming 780 kJ/s of fuel(because of 50% efficiency)

This is the reason, why in the vanilla game the 13:10 distribution works the best because 13 x 390 ~= 10 x 510 (this constallation will consume fuel worth 13 x 2 x 390 KJ/s)


The picture with the "fatmice 55+ MW" build made me understand it a little bit better of how you think and how the whole MF concept works. I already realized that you can actually heat MF directly, but I thought your intention of this concept ist to generate heat with the gearboxes(which I do not fully understand), because a gearbox seem to work like this:

Input: MF
Output: lower MF but slightly heated

And I am not able to understand the exact mechanics behind this, because it has a weird behavior.(output temperature inconsistant and fluctuating)

To me heating MF directly is anti-intuitive, as generating MF is very "expansive" and you actually have to heat it in addition. If you compare MF with water, MF has a ~x57 higher capacity(10 kJ instead of 1kJ and 500 max Temp). If you use MF for heat transmission, you are better off using water instead where you get ~600(?) water/sec(an aquivalent of ~10 MF) FOR FREE from an offshore pump. Also, if generators do not consume MF at max temperature, you actually waste MF or use it very inefficient.
If you do not understand what I mean, I give you one example, which will make it clear by an analogy:

"nobody would heat crude oil instead of water in order to fuel the generators" (though its possible^^)

As you already told me, you focus on trying out new concepts, but I wanted to explain my point of view, because in my opinion every game concept is DIRECTLY TIED to balance, in order to make sense. My critique is not meant to be negative I just want to help you improve the mod
In this context designing MF around "heat transmission" does not make sense, because water already is a, though slightly limited (remember the rheinsberger heater) heat transmission.


I give you an example of what I think the whole MF- concept SHOULD work, with imagined numbers:

-A burner consumes 100 MJ of fuel to generate 10 MF
-the gearbox transforms those 10 MF into heated 9 MF @ 500°C
-fueling those 9 heated MF to a generator gives 100 MJ
(-the inital burner or the generator may not have 100% efficiency)

Behind this concept lies the idea of transforming an "item"(which is the fluid MF) into "energy".
Currently the concept is producing MF, then heating it and then transforming it into energy.

Currently it seems to be like this:

-A burner consumes 100 MJ of fuel to generate 10 MF
-the gearbox transforms those 10 MF into heated 9 MF @ ~100°C (if you store it, it will go down to ~40°C)
-fueling those 9 heated MF to a generator gives 40 MJ
or
-fueling those 9 heated MF to another gearbox will result in 8MF @ ~80 °C


If all of what I have written is completly wrong, then its because I do not understand GEARBOXES. How do they work?

-Why is the output fluctuating around ~100°C (sometimes it goes down to ~40 if you store it) and
-why do 2 serial gearboxes do not increase temperature further? (the second output might actually be even lower)

[YuokiTani]

remove on MF the °C ... and use rpm or torque. i can't remove the Celsius so this leads to this misunderstanding.

direct heating MF is cheating, if you follow the gearbox way - every gearbox increase the rpm. because game-mechanics and MF with special fluid-settings it fluctuates for a simple reason. you need to use the shafts and let the rpm+torque increase before use. if you use to much it will slow down and stop your mechanics (rpm aka fluid temp drop).

every gearbox need a shaft (aka pipe) before and after, coupling direct will not work.
with a little energy for the gearbox you can make a huge energy-profit. but you need carefully build and energy-load your system. (overloads can cause collaps - because if rpm down it don't come up without help again)

standard 40 rpm is planned to use for some other things that require more a mechanical drive, like the form-press if you press vegetiable-oil, or for the fatmice-cycle-engine. high rpm after gearboxes for getting generator-power.

yes it would be easier if i have not implemented this, but also more boring.

some notice, long shafts (pipes) have a lot of friction, also gearboxes have friction, so you loose at every step a little MF.

Exampe-Build

~ 15 MW generates Infused Fuel

[Fatmice]

@Nasabot

There are much discussion on this MF already. Please backtrack and reread the previous posts for explanation on what MF actually is. And see my video for the proper use of gearbox.