RTS direction

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FreeER
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Re: RTS direction

Post by FreeER » Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:21 pm

Ardagan wrote:Hm, ok. I like to answer the first post of the topic. Will do that again.[snip]
Not to downplay any of this but it has all been suggested before, and some (construction bots and blueprints specifically) are in progress now.

as for 5, Mining already increases pollution (so you can see the same effect). As for the increasing intelligence...Biters do not look like an intelligent enemy to me, but that aside, I'd say more over time and their strategy would improve after combat rather than having anything to do with mining, though the actual implementation of that is much easier said than done in code (remember it's not even version 1.0)
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Re: RTS direction

Post by Ardagan » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:04 pm

FreeER,
I totally agree with you about the implementation. It takes ages to do. :)

Hoped to just add a vote or start one more circle of discussion as this topic does not seem to be closed yet. And don't think it will ever be.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by ssilk » Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:20 am

I want to go into this point:
Ardagan wrote: 4) As an expansion for fans/programmers you can add an option to program the behavior of robots. (Well, I get some ideas from games Battle Snakes and Grobots) What you can add is:
a) make robots moduled like armor
b) add option to have some proportion of robots: I want to always have 5 ranged for 3 melee robots
c) add strategies: I want to have 5 robots defending my base and 5 attacking enemy base.
d) add more complex strategies: I want to specify gathering points, patrol regions, attack regions. That should be maintainable: I want to have 5 robots patrolling this region. If one is destroyed another one should replace it automatically. I know this base if heavy defence, I want robots to attack in packs of no less than 10 ranged, 5 melee.
To a) this is a point I'm thinking currently, but not from that aspect, more from how could I built this. Because what I miss in this game is something like the robots factory in Star Wars. A production street, which has a pulsed production cycle. You need to put the right items into it in the right time. But the idea is not finished yet.

To b-d) this is not the way, how factorio works. It is a physic simulation. That means, the way it can work is not to have some requester, where I can adjust what I want. The way it works is to make some physical change in the game.
In this case: measure, compute, react. A sensor checks how many bots are in an area. If it is too low it will fire a signal, which let the bot-production run, until satisfied.
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Re: RTS direction

Post by Imp0815 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:54 am

ssilk wrote: ... something like the robots factory in Star Wars. A production street, which has a pulsed production cycle. You need to put the right items into it in the right time...
I want this.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by BuilderChimp » Wed Feb 05, 2014 8:01 pm

I liked what Milaha said near the beginning of this thread about robots that would need to be "programmed" for their basic behaviour. It could be a mini-game in itself. But I also like the whole route of capturing and breeding your own creepers to do your fighting. Decoys, confusion and appeasement are also be other ways to interact with the aliens.

As for the RTS approach I wouldn't want to see Factorio go too far down the C&C route. However, I liked what Kovarex said about factories where a unit comes out rather than an inventory item. One way to make these factories really difficult to operate would be to have perfectly timed inputs (as ssilk suggested from seeing it in Star Wars) or a huge stream of raw materials needing to be conveyed into the machine within a short time window.

I also thought there could be colonists landing (in escape pods) all over the map from about the mid-point of the game onwards. You can try to rescue them using radars to pinpoint their distress beacons and personal radar to locate them when you get near. Maybe all done in a little dropship :) - they would automatically jump into your vehicle and exit when it gets near a certain building or something. They bring with them lore and maybe even rare items for the player. They are a burden at the factory where you have to house and feed them and give them work and entertainment.

Perhaps some could be used as technicians, others as soldiers, scouts and so on. Technicians could be passive and just walk around the factory tweaking things. If they have a high skill then the machines they service receive speed/efficiency/productivity boosts for a short while. If they are crap then the machines will suffer for a bit. Soldiers could also be passive and just hang nearby and protect the people as their number one priority and the factory second. There could also be a more elaborate mission system to send people out to prospect, clear out aliens, set up defensive perimeters etc. but that might be too much.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Olreich » Sun Feb 09, 2014 9:36 pm

I would prefer not diverting the focus of the game to factory defense. RTS-style combat control would be ok, but the compelling, core-game of Factorio is building a factory and defending it. One person against the world of monsters. You lose that when you get RTS control. I find the idea of the enemies getting smarter, and you getting attacked from more sides more compelling. Keep it one person against the world, and let that person build robots that are as smart as the enemy. And if they are unprepared for the fight they've polluted themselves into, then they have to scramble from one side of their factory to the other, trying to fend off the horde.

TL;DR The combat and defenses of the game are already fantastic, improving AI is always great, but you don't need RTS controls.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by TGS » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:52 am

I like the idea of the RTS controls, I mean it would give you more to do in the late game rather than simply standing there letting your factory do all the work, or running around taking out creature nests by yourself. That being said I think the biters/creepers/AI needs some massive work. And they need to be redesigned so that they don't pop out of nowhere. So that it actually feels like they are migrating and building up/out/around etc. Rather than straight up appearing.

I've taken out a nest in one spot... then 10 minutes later go back to that same spot and another nest is there bigger than the first. It literally just appeared out of nowhere. No real reason that I could think of lol.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by darius456 » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:55 am

kovarex wrote:We are considering the rts direction of the game a lot.

Builder robots
Player could just order stuff to be built and where. It would be up to the builder robots, to get the needed materials from the logistic system and build it. This would be combatibile with blueprints (some kind of ctrl-c ctrl-v system, or even blueprint as item), building would take some time, and the more robots the player have, the faster it is.

Fighting units
Ordered like in rts, some kinds of robots/automated etc.
I could imagine, that these robots shouldn't be craftable like other items (I don't really like the idea of having few tanks in my pocket and placing them in front of the enemy base). Fighting units would still need ingredients and time like normal recipes, but would be only buildable in special buildings, and instead of producing items, the unit would exit the building.
This means these wouldn't be minable as well.

Throne room
Player would enter it, and he could start control the game in rts style, at this phase, he would already have robots for building stuff, and units to fight, so he would just order what needs to be done in bigger scale.
This is fantastic! Go on and infom us.
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Re: RTS direction

Post by Calico » Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:17 pm

Factorio with a "Command Center" and controllable robots and tanks.... thats like a crossover of Supreme Commander: FAF and OpenTTD. With a 1/4 SupCom and a 3/4 OTTD Mix. Thats like Bacon with uhm, uhm,öhm and more Bacon.

I wouldn't mind not having to run around everywhere and check on things all the time.

I can totally imagine the possibilitys: Sentry Drones flying regular border Patrols looking for new Biters Nests close to your Borders... a couple of Heavy Combat Mechs standing watch on important check points. Early Game we, the players, already resemble the Commander in SupCom very much... Loads of building capabilities and a lot of room for upgrades in the combat department. Like the Commander we still would spearhead pretty much all assaults until midgame. Later on we would be the last line of defense for the base, for those times the "improved" Biters manage to sneak past our defenses.... or simple overwhelmed them with superior numbers.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by tbarros » Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:35 pm

Calico wrote:...Early Game we, the players, already resemble the Commander in SupCom very much... Loads of building capabilities and a lot of room for upgrades in the combat department. Like the Commander we still would spearhead pretty much all assaults until midgame. Later on we would be the last line of defense for the base, for those times the "improved" Biters manage to sneak past our defenses.... or simple overwhelmed them with superior numbers.
well early game you wont do much unfortunately but that SupCom idea if implemented a bit earlier could be quite nice
in a sense that when you get modular Armor its like the start of SupCom only a few hours too late.
hope the Dev will give us some modular Armor a bit earlier to be able to clear a few patches :) i already stated this before

and please anything to ease the pain before you get to uber god (AKA MK2 Armor + all the other goodies)

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Re: RTS direction

Post by TGS » Fri Feb 21, 2014 1:38 am

Part of the problem with giving too many offensive things too early then it becomes massively unbalanced and the only way to fix it would be to make the biters harder and in greater numbers. That would become less fun imo.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Drury » Sun Apr 06, 2014 12:01 pm

Even though it might be a bit difficult to balance, I think a Warzone 2100 modular system would be cool.

Basically, you'd build vehicles in a similar manner as you build logistics/construction drones - first manufacture the frame, then add to it, and the resulting tank functions depending on what you add to that frame. Except you'd add more pre-manufactured parts instead of different types of circuit boards, like pre-made turrets, pre-made tracks.

In Warzone 2100, you build vehicles out of three modular parts - the hull, the drive system, and the turret. The hull determines the vehicle's weight - less weight = faster speed, weaker armor, more weight = slower speed, stronger armor, there are also specific types of advanced reactive armor and stealth armor as you advance in the tech tree. Driving system determines how the vehicle moves - tracks for tank-like movement, hover drive for better speed, VTOL drive for flying vehicles. Turret is the weapon - cannon/machine gun/laser/mortar... In Warzone 2100, turrets could also be non-lethal utilities, such as radar, repair or construction modules (in Factorio, perhaps portable Roboport?).

Warzone 2100 modular system heavily relies on tech tree research, which is already present in Factorio, so it just clicked for me. Then there's also the whole design philosophy of Factorio, manufacturing products out of lots of other sub-products. The conditions are too perfect.
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Re: RTS direction

Post by Alfdaur » Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:57 pm

Just giving my two cents here.

The construction robots work really well in the game, and even the combat robots as there worked into the game right now. But to be honest, I don't like the idea of a throne room. I think that adding a throne room to the game will separate you from your character.

What I would like to suggest is the making reconasance drones. In my mind, this game drives on automating everything. What I would like to see is a reason for the player to roam the countryside. My suggestion would be to have the alien hot spots that need to be destroyed while they're weak. These hotspots would grow in power the longer you let them unchecked. For this reason the player would need the current car in the game to cover large swats of land, walking around is just too slow. After the player techs up a little in technology he could make scout drones that can patrol a large area around a beacon tower.

The problem is, that the current aliens are just too weak to justify any more strategic powers for the player. I do like the current biters, but they're just a walkover, they only give a reason to make fortifications around your bases.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by ssilk » Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:45 pm

@Drury: I think I'll try warzone out.

See also this threads:
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=2756
https://forums.factorio.com/forum/vie ... f=5&t=1016

I see also inspirations from the factories in Star Wars or Portal. I remember Darwinia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwinia_(video_game) ), which goes a little bit into that direction.

@Alfdaur: the devs stated already, that we can access only areas with radar from this throne-room (to make it in short words). I think this is a good compromise.
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Re: RTS direction

Post by cube » Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:12 pm

Drury wrote:Even though it might be a bit difficult to balance, I think a Warzone 2100 modular system would be cool.
*Y*E*S*, it's great that there is also someone else than me who knows warzone :-)
I have no idea what I'm talking about.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by AlexPhoenix » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:07 am

[quote="Drury"][/quote]WZ2100 system is more complexed.

yes it will be very cool to make this system available.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by smboss » Wed May 14, 2014 4:03 am

I really like the RTS direction being that i am a huge fan of RTS style games.I like the idea of being more of an avatar and leading a small (or large) army of robots. In much the same way as Supreme Commander you should build not only have to build turrets to guard against waves of aliens but also build robots ranging from small drones to large mechs that can behave offensively and can actively hunt and destroy aliens and spawners. Their range should be limited to within a certain distance of your character (techs can extend range) but after researching an appropriate technology a control node can be built to provide a more permanent command and control solution.

However, i also think for this game the Role Play aspect can't (and probably shouldn't) be removed completely. I do not like the idea of a "throne room" and completely surrendering the-third person mode. The whole purpose of the game is not to build armies but to manufacture on an increasingly massive scale to "pave the way for the colonists". Removing the Role Play element at any stage of the game would eliminate the 'make-life-easier-for-yourself' aspect of factory production which really is the heart and soul of this game. The character should be an avatar who can be upgraded to increase personal effectiveness in things such as combat, production, command and control, etc.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by Drury » Wed May 14, 2014 8:29 am

You can have both RPG elements and throne room.

Warcraft system allows the player character to be the hero unit, the "one man army" on the battlefield albeit at the risk of losing your life and not having full overview of the situation.
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Re: RTS direction

Post by Teurlinx » Wed May 14, 2014 11:53 am

I believe that this game would be better served emphasizing the construction aspect. It's amazing at building a factory. No other game does it better. There are thousands and thousands of games which do combat better. Of course combat should be improved, but it should not be a focal point in any way.

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Re: RTS direction

Post by robhol » Thu May 15, 2014 3:32 pm

Personally, I sort of dislike RTS and I absolutely LOATHE tower defense. The current level is tolerable, but I'd rather not have to order anything more around.
If you do choose to implement it, PLEASE make it optional as a parallel to the current gameplay?
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