Peace with Aliens

Give feedback on topics proposed by the developers.
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Ranger_Aurelien
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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Ranger_Aurelien »

zOldBulldog wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:54 am
Even without any of the above, you can launch a rocket without ever fighting an alien if you build small and use No Expansion, max the Starting Area size, and max the deposit richness settings. These kinds of settings are typically used by people attempting the No Spoon achievement.
Try Island 75% size or so, and you can have peace with aliens on otherwise default settings -- you and they can start on separate islands!
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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by azizmandar »

Normally when a game had pollution it means you need to manage it. It took weeks for me to realize that reducing pollution really only impacted how often you get attacked and how fast the enemy changes.

Having a path that encourages eco friendly play would likely become the path most new players take at first. I could see it being a tricky and achievement worthy goal since the less pollution solutions tend to need more space (like solar) and natives don't tend to like being asked to move.

If you do add something like this I'd really enjoy trying it out.. but I'm not sure if it will replace the way I play the most.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by FredHp »

Peace with aliens? IMHO a wall of lasers is the best way to make peace....

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by MEOWMI »

I recently did a pacifist playthrough where I purposefully kept pollution low and built my base to minimize its harm (actually by maximizing area, so that there is more nature to absorb the pollution).

I thought it was a really interesting idea and actually got quite far, enjoying the various new challenges that it presents, a very fresh take on the game, but towards the last half of it I noticed that aliens do actually spread out regardless of pollution (and thus conflict is inevitable), later reading up on the wiki to confirm this suspicion.

Playing it much past launching a rocket is at least hard and maybe even impossible due to the increasing alien nest density, but a rocket launch is all you need I think - that's where the many parts of the game end.

To this end, I do fully support the idea of making pacifist a viable playstyle, even if no-one is going to accidentally play like it, especially since it already seems so close to possible with the current game mechanics (which perhaps disregards the technical challenge of retaining vengeful expansion from destruction of old nests).

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Serenity09 »

I love this idea! I don't find fighting them fun, and i still think i'll probably just prefer flat peaceful most of the time, but there are moods where i think i'd like an inbetween. Something that gave me a few problems, but maybe ones that had more mutualistic requirements / outcomes. Would you ever consider alien factions?

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by dgnuff »

Interesting idea. Earlier in the thread, the idea of trade / communication was suggested, but the counter-argument was given that the Biters didn't seem intelligent enough for this. That's a good point, but here's a suggestion to work around it.

Let's say there is some sort of "Hive Overmind" that is a collective intelligence of the Biters. Sure, the individuals aren't at all smart, but the Overmind is. It just doesn't know who we are, all it can see is that we're on the planet, producing tons of pollution. Therefore it thinks we need to be removed. If it was able to detect that we're actually trying to minimize the pollution, that would be a first step.

Maybe some research could uncover things it considers useful / valuable that we could make. That would be the next step, and just let it progress from there. At the grand scale, this could possibly provide an alternate end-game. How fast can we create trade goods for them that can be exchanged for Artifact Science Packs that could then be used in place of Space Science Packs for end-game research.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by MetereX »

I think i'd be cool and a new playstyle is never a bad thing, but I think it would go against the theme of the game.
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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by SunWolf »

I think best way to integrate such idea is to make it as another way to eliminate threat trough technological craft line system.

1. To make new craft tree similiar to military. to make same difficiulty&timebuild as military, but in diffrent way, eco way.
so in this way you will change ecosystem in planet making whole green and milky, and therefore aliens devolve to death.

2. To pacify with aliens is not possible, since they look and are ugly parasites. you cannot transform parasites. parasites consume death&life to exist. but if you change ecosystem, they source of nutrition will disapear together with them. i think is best way to integrate new craft tree and way to deal with them. Air purify, atmosphere regeneration, water cleansing etc.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by TheRangerLOL »

dgnuff wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:13 am
Let's say there is some sort of "Hive Overmind" that is a collective intelligence of the Biters. Sure, the individuals aren't at all smart, but the Overmind is. It just doesn't know who we are, all it can see is that we're on the planet, producing tons of pollution. Therefore it thinks we need to be removed. If it was able to detect that we're actually trying to minimize the pollution, that would be a first step.
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MetereX wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 7:27 pm
I think i'd be cool and a new playstyle is never a bad thing, but I think it would go against the theme of the game.
As the developers, they are the ones that are capable of changing the theme of their own game.

SunWolf wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:22 pm
I think best way to integrate such idea is to make it as another way to eliminate threat trough technological craft line system.
...
So your proposal is to implement a way to create grand-scale genocide? As if the nukes and artillery and spidertrons weren't already enough.
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Re: Peace with Aliens

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SunWolf wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:22 pm
2. To pacify with aliens is not possible, since they look and are ugly parasites. you cannot transform parasites. parasites consume death&life to exist.
Missed that one. Yo do realize that the paraistes are not the biters (the natives), but the engineer (the invader) ?
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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by Elwis »

I am new to Factorio. I watched a few YouTube videos in the last couple of years and I didn't like the graphics. I watched YouTube again a couple of months ago and I see that the graphics have changed a lot. I liked it so much that I downloaded a demo which I also enjoyed very much so I bought the game and recently finished my first rocket launch.

I like all aspects of the game except the military. I really don't want to be that kind of human being killing other living beings even if it is just a game. It is just my personality. I would like if there was an option mentioned in this thread or/and even some non-military mode where majority military items/science is replaced with something else. I don't want to have just an option of removing the military because it also removes the complexity of the game. It could be replaced with some food/medicine production to help natives and get something for exchange.

This is a very nice post I found about this subject https://molily.de/antagonism-human-nature/ saying "I have counted 129 civil items, 10 dual use items and 44 military items."

I found an old interesting mode https://mods.factorio.com/mod/peacemod/ ... 1024d761d2 which I don't know if it works but that is not complex enough most likely with outdated graphics.

I am glad that there are like minded people who also would like none military Factorio. I don't mind having a gun in my pocket and shooting trees but not anything else.

What are your recommended recent mods with nice graphics to get more complexity without military and war items?

For now, I set the settings to Peaceful, and almost removed all natives, just left them here and there so I can have them on the map but should be able to avoid them.

Thanks.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by argbla »

Koub wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:44 am
SunWolf wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 12:22 pm
2. To pacify with aliens is not possible, since they look and are ugly parasites. you cannot transform parasites. parasites consume death&life to exist.
Missed that one. Yo do realize that the paraistes are not the biters (the natives), but the engineer (the invader) ?
You're characterization is incorrect as well. A parasite deceives or manipulates its host to leach off of them and does not want to outright kill them. The engineer is a competitor. Both the bugs and the engineer would be best off with the other out of the way.

Due to pervasive postmodern ideology people have gotten confused about these ideas and seem to think we should become "friends" with everything, no matter the differences of interests. This results in situations where people are so desperate to become "friends" they open themselves up to a parasitic relationship with groups that can not otherwise offer a mutual relationship. Yes, postmodernism is an ideology by and for parasites.

So ironically, exploring this question of how to become "friends" with the bugs, if you take the advice of the theory which likely prompted the idea of becoming friends at all, it would be to feed them at your own expense, make them dependent and domesticate them, all the while continuing to ravage their planet while convincing them it's "for the greater good". Under this situation, the Engineer would have become subversive of the natives, and parasitic if the natives help him do it, analogous to more primitive parasites emitting chemicals which neutralize the hosts immune response or make the hosts behavior self destructive. Most people would not consider this peaceful, let alone friendly. By some measures, subversion is antithetical to a positive relationship more than outright conflict.

Alternatively, the bugs could be pacified by gifts of some kind, else they will harass your factory. If their demands aren't met, they'll make your life harder. This is another strategy, where the parasite makes it much easier for the host to pacify the parasite than to get rid of it. Not exactly a friendly relationship either, and can even be subversive if the Engineer is tricked in to thinking he isn't being taken advantage of. Or, if the biters are made strong enough to destroy the Engineer if he doesn't comply, that would be the bugs subjugating the Engineer. While forced labor might not be peaceful exactly, it does sound like a fun game mode (basically an expanded Supply Challenge scenario).

All that aside, the fundamental situation does not lend itself to allegiance or peace. Apart from completely redesigning what biters are and turning the game in to a sort of diplomacy simulator, there's no way of turning the bugs in to friends that isn't a cheap idealistic fantasy.

Though all of this is besides the point. The game isn't about the bugs, it's about a factory. The bugs play but a bit role in your troubles. For a truce to be a better option than forcibly telling them to go away, they would have to be too strong to handle otherwise. A diplomacy system certainly could be fun, but I'm not sure that would be a positive addition to a game like Factorio as it stands.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by AyleeJenn »

Oh my, this thread heated up since I last checked it. :shock:

I could see the potential for a mod here as mentioned by someone named dx4 a couple pages earlier:

# a scripted gauge (diplomacy??) is introduced that can fill from zero to one hundred
# biter and enemy base kills reduce that gauge by a division (formula -> gauge value = friendly action/ enemy kills)
--> that way the biters "don't forget aggression against them" but if you make enough friendly action, they can forgive
# introduce friendly action of some sort (putting something onto a nest for example, I donno)
--> that will complete the gauge formula = friendly action / enemy kills
# have a scripted switch that turns biters into "peaceful mode" once a certain "gauge value" has been reached (perhaps 50+ ? that way you can build into enemy bases and .. automate! .. delivery of friendly action :D)
# introduce a way to request a spawner (as a placeable entity) from the enemies that absorbs pollution with the requirement of having a gauge value of 90+ or something
# possible issue: you'd have to introduce a way to cause biters to still attack due to pollution if the diplomatic player is not careful after managing a "cease-fire" but if biters are set to peaceful mode, they can't actually attack unless attacked first which technically speaking makes requesting a spawner from them to absorb pollution not necessary since they are not going to attack anymore anyways :? Maybe if pollution reaches a base after "cease-fire" is established the scripted switch that set them to peaceful mode sets them to normal mode again? That way you could even be a true villain and first establish a cease-fire only to betray them if you are so inclined.
# you could even introduce a diplomacy research tree where several "tiers" of friendly action can be researched each recipe priced differently and with a different output of "friendly action supplies" you would deliver in your efforts of diplomacy

... this is really just a very quick and probably not very thought out concept but I could see potential for a mod in this. I mean, why not? Factorio is very modder friendly and all about what people make of it both during a gaming session and outside of it.


edit: my formula probably won't work, it .. uh .. features divisions by zero :D maybe one of you math inclined people can come up with a better one

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by blazespinnaker »

argbla wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:40 am
Due to pervasive postmodern ideology
I think the term you were looking for was symbiosis, and the concept has been around for about 150 years or so.

Or maybe that was just some satire of starship troopers and I missed the joke.
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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by soltis »

Making the aliens hate the pollution and attack you for it is honestly one of the most inane, insipid, and cliched possible plot concepts.

Trying to make the aliens "like" you doesn't make sense when they're obviously mindless zerg critters that are aggressive and ugly - not to mention they blight the land around their hives. This is no beautiful "we wuv nature" Avatar style alien race, they're just as awful as you are in terms of disrupting the environment.

A much more interesting one would be that they LIKE it. They're not attacking you because you're "le evil polluting capitalistengineer pig", they're eating the equipment because it's tasty. Having them "evolve" because of exposure to toxins is cute Star Trek style technobabble, but it's really not very plausible. Evolution doesn't work like that, and they'd be more likely to DIE than to get stronger if it was harmful to them.

However, imagine that the pollution benefits them - makes them grow bigger and stronger. Now it all makes sense. They start out as barely functioning, malnourished critters eking out an existence ... until you supply them with all the food they could ever want, so they finally grow to their "real" size. The smaller variants aren't "less evolved", they're simply adults that grew up under the effects of borderline starvation, so they didn't reach their full size.

So the more pollution you pump out, the more nice big healthy strong aliens you get trying to eat your base.

It also would explain why destroying the enemy structures results in a jump in "evolution" - if the blisters concentrate toxins from the environment for the aliens to feed from, then having one destroyed would result in a huge potential food source for the remaining aliens in the area, consequently increasing their size. This could even be modeled (in theory) with aliens consuming base remains, or actually transporting them to neighboring hives.

This leads to a much more interesting set of gameplay possibilities:

-Luring aliens away from your bases with pollution "salt licks" that essentially are hyper compressed blocks of whatever toxic crap your systems pump out, that would attract them. (The item would simply be a widget with very high HP that would attract them until they destroyed it)
-Reducing pollution released into the environment by redirecting it to the production of the salt licks
-Domesticating them (or something like it) by using a treat system to influence them.
-Managing "evolution" by preventing the critters from consuming destroyed basis
-Actively utilizing pollution as a resource to "power" the domesticated aliens (they would need to be fed in order to work)

This is a game about giant factories. Let's leave off the Captain Planet act and stick to what the game does best: exploiting the environment so we can make bigger, weirder machines (and if we can include "domesticated/tamed aliens doing work for us in addition to drones", that would be a really fun way to subvert the usual BS)
Last edited by soltis on Tue Jul 06, 2021 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by ssilk »

Hm. Like this. You mean the pollution is for the enemy like Carbondioxide (co2) is for plants: some kind of fertilizer? It makes sense.

What would that change to the game? As far as I can see all of the suggestions are already possible somehow.
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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by soltis »

Functionally, not a lot - outside of the new development that is implied by the concept. The only change would be, if the developers opted to, to revise the evolution mechanic so that it only applies if aliens are able to consume their destroyed bases (which gives the player an incentive to use territory "capture and hold" tactics to prevent this). And even that is only an elaboration of the existing mechanic, not a huge change.

My concept also explains another big GLARING issue with the game concept now - why the aliens attack at all. Animals and people both tend to avoid big scary loud stuff they don't understand, and they also avoid stuff that hurts or kills them. It's flatly illogical that they'd seek out a source of danger and attack it mindlessly (or even suicidally, once the player has even the smallest hint of defenses).

People and animals don't do suicide attacks against giant scary machines they don't understand, but both humans AND animals will take suicidal risks in order to eat if they are starving. That's one of the few things that will motivate animals to invade people's houses, or wild animals to come into areas inhabited by people - hunger. So if they have a dietary craving for the pollution, it would explain why they'd attack even when being shot it. It also gives a good incentive for them to go after the stuff that's the most toxic.

One reason I like my idea is that it changes nothing about the existing dynamics. The aliens still want to wreck your machines and attack you, pollution still increases their size and aggression, it still forces the player to (somewhat) consider the consequences of their actions on the environment ... all it does is reframe it into a context that makes sense logically and is consistent with both human and animal behavior.

The only CHANGES would be the implications of the additional tech/research, and and tuning done to the game parameters to accommodate the balance implications of this approach.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

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soltis wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 4:45 am
The only CHANGES would be the implications of the additional tech/research, and and tuning done to the game parameters to accommodate the balance implications of this approach.
Could be done as mod - as I doubt the game-play itself will change much (and wube will change the gameplay yet). I would mean most players wouldn’t see the difference. :) But it’s important why they do what they do and for me this behavior would be more logical.

Such a mod wouldn’t be quite complicated and the only slight performance impact would be the target to eat destroyed bases.
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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by soltis »

blazespinnaker wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 7:31 am
argbla wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:40 am
Due to pervasive postmodern ideology
I think the term you were looking for was symbiosis, and the concept has been around for about 150 years or so.

Or maybe that was just some satire of starship troopers and I missed the joke.
No, I'm pretty certain he meant exactly what he said. Symbiosis isn't possible in the scenario offered by the game as it exists now, although my proposal would allow a limited form of it.

What he is describing is a completely accurate characterization of an insidiously ubiquitous mindset that is actively promulgated in the current social context: "the power of wuv and fwiendship". He simply is pointing out that in the broader social context, this exact philosophy is used to devastating effect by people who exploit other people, in order to disarm the very people they are exploiting.

In realistic terms, that philosophy is idiotic - any group that fails to select for its own members will be destroyed by another group that does. The only time cooperation or friendship is possible is when both parties have something to gain that is greater than the gain from simply taking advantage of the other party.

Without adapting the game premise to some extent, it is implausible or outright unrealistic to depict two groups getting along despite having no logical reason to do so - and very good reasons to want to exterminate each other - which is one of the merits to my proposal - it changes the motivations of the engineer and the aliens from being opposing, to being orthogonal.

As it stands, the engineer wants to build machines that make pollution and take up space, and the aliens want to destroy the source of the pollution and be left alone. There is no way to reconcile these two positions, because they are mutually exclusive, without essentially rewriting the premise of the game.

My proposal does not change the visible behavior of the aliens, but it changes their motivations from - essentially - ideology to a more logical one - hunger. Now their goal is to eat, which just happens to include eating the machines, but if you can provide them with a more appealing source of nutrition, then they will leave you alone, and being able to offer them such a thing creates the basis for some form of cooperation.
Koub wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:44 am
Yo do realize that the paraistes are not the biters (the natives), but the engineer (the invader) ?
Why are you assuming the aliens are necessarily "good" and the engineer is necessarily "bad"? There's no proof the aliens are natives, and even if they are, that does not mean they're benign. It's a very self destructive attitude to assume that you, or your proxy in the game, is the "bad guy" when there's plentiful evidence that the aliens are at least as destructive as you are.
ssilk wrote:
Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:01 am
Could be done as mod - as I doubt the game-play itself will change much (and wube will change the gameplay yet). I would mean most players wouldn’t see the difference. :) But it’s important why they do what they do and for me this behavior would be more logical.

Such a mod wouldn’t be quite complicated and the only slight performance impact would be the target to eat destroyed bases.
No, this very readily lends itself to modding, although I don't have the time or energy to do it myself. It would be a fun project, though.

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Re: Peace with Aliens

Post by NotRexButCaesar »

soltis wrote:
Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:59 am
Koub wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:44 am
Yo do realize that the paraistes are not the biters (the natives), but the engineer (the invader) ?
Why are you assuming the aliens are necessarily "good" and the engineer is necessarily "bad"? There's no proof the aliens are natives, and even if they are, that does not mean they're benign. It's a very self destructive attitude to assume that you, or your proxy in the game, is the "bad guy" when there's plentiful evidence that the aliens are at least as destructive as you are.
He has probably assumed so due to the perspective of the developers—or at least Kovarex. Multiple different times the engineer has been presented as the sic. bad guy in quite clear terms. There is a plenty of articles about the subject.
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