[kovarex] [0.16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

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[kovarex] [0.16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by AntiElite » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:11 am

Iron Plate behind Inserters "jump" even tho compression fails. This is not really something game breaking, but may give a hint to something not working as intended right there



save attached
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Items on belt jumping depending on items further down

Post by mh_ » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:51 am

I did some tests on this bug. The first blueprint below is an example.
Fill the chest with the items of the corresponding smart inserters. If you turn the "bug" constant combinator on, the bug will show (the green circuit is jumping, therefor the yellow belt cant fit on the belt). If you turn it off, it works as expected.

It also depends on the length of the looping back on the right. If you increase then length to the right by 1 or 2 the bug stays. If you increase it by 3 the bug disappears (see second blueprint). Can anyone confirm my findings?

This should be a bug in the belt improvements, as it only happens when there are items on the belt further down. I suppose it is some sort of fence-post-error, since my testing suggested this would be a jump by 1 pos. The changing the belt length changes if there is a corner between the items further down the belt. Hope this helps.

Code: Select all

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
[edit]Blueprint needed stacksize 1 on inserters[/edit]

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Re: [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by riking » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:00 pm

Is it possible that the creep was supposed to happen before the inserter, and a sign error (plus vs minus) is making it happen after?

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Re: [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by mh_ » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:12 pm

riking wrote:Is it possible that the creep was supposed to happen before the inserter, and a sign error (plus vs minus) is making it happen after?
This does not explain the behaviour I observed, please try my blueprints to see for yourself. Also I think that NO item creep in ANY WAY should occur.
I would rather suggest, that this is a fence-post error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Off-by-one_error. This could easily happen when you would ask yourself if the item start on the belt at position 8 and the item has a length of 9, where does the item end and where should I place the next?

Note that I suspect, that the "no more sideloading"-issue is directly related to this very bug.

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Re: [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by Aidiakapi » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:27 pm

I've just ran some tests with compressing belts with the circuit network, and this bug is preventing that from functioning too. It feels safe to assume that any combinator contraptions relying on the timings of belts are broken in 0.16, even those that don't sideload, or rely on compression.

This setup is supposed to mimic a yellow-belt smelting array, the boxes get a single iron plate every 3.5 seconds, as if they were a furnace. There are 24, so the throughput is high enough to compress a yellow belt.

Video for 0.16.4: https://youtu.be/oV1JBpOTp7E
Expected behavior in 0.15: https://youtu.be/QuAybTuNo_U

Having done some more testing, it seems that it happens when a track gets "reactivated" (goes from white to blue in the visualization), I made a recording with visualization on and the game time lowered:
https://youtu.be/ANP7Lswdt7k

Before someone feels the need to point it out, yes the build did leave a gap in 0.15, which comes from the synchronization, and can be mostly fixed by detaching the last inserter's wires, there's always the probability of it happening, but it becomes extremely low.

Edit A bunch of blueprints for all combinator controlled smelter setups that work perfectly in 0.15 (without relying on undergrounds ofc). Probably not working in 0.16 due to this bug. BPBook: https://pastebin.com/JcrRLAJh

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Re: [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by mh_ » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:53 am

To all who do this with the default 12-smelter (stone and steel) yellow belts setup (as hinted in the blueprint):
1 78 14 91 27 104 40 12 53 25 66 38 / 105
These will circumvent the bug, as it depends on the free lane length as described above.

The numbers for the 24-version should be (not tested):
1 123 119 31 27 149 145 57 53 175 171 83 79 201 197 109 105 47 13 155 131 53 39 161 / 210

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Re: [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by DaveMcW » Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:29 am

Confirmed it's still a problem in 0.16.12.

Here is a test map with two jumps, one furnace width to the left of the player, and one furnace width to the right.

Attachments
belt-bug.zip
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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by Gergely » Fri Jan 05, 2018 12:27 pm

I had a feeling that something like this would happen eventually, after reading all those FFF-s about belt compression lately.

Consistency is nothing. Optimisation is everything! Optimisation is a way of life!!!

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by mh_ » Sat Jan 06, 2018 6:51 am

Gergely wrote:I had a feeling that something like this would happen eventually, after reading all those FFF-s about belt compression lately.

Consistency is nothing. Optimisation is everything! Optimisation is a way of life!!!
go away. experimental versions mean bugs. spread your schadenfreude somewhere else.

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by kovarex » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:36 am

This particular behaviour is only happening when the belt is a circle. There needs to point, where the circle connects to itself.
When I turn transport lines debug option, it actually confirms, that the loop is closed at this point exactly.
Is this a really that big of an issue?

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by Zavian » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:01 am

I can reproduce it in 0.16.15 in the belt-bug.zip save that DaveMcW posted in viewtopic.php?f=182&t=54693#p330081 . That is just a straight furnace line, not a loop.

Edit: fixed link

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by mh_ » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:10 am

kovarex wrote:This particular behaviour is only happening when the belt is a circle. There needs to point, where the circle connects to itself.
When I turn transport lines debug option, it actually confirms, that the loop is closed at this point exactly.
Is this a really that big of an issue?
This does happen if the belt is not a loop. Feel free to use the supplied blueprint as a testcase. The jump occurs at the mentioned transport-line intersections, but it is dependent on what is happening further down the belt.
mh_ wrote:

Code: Select all

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by mh_ » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:33 am

Please enable the mod "Creative Mode (Fixed for 0.16)" for the following complete linear blueprint.

Code: Select all

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
[edit]Since the contents of the creative chests get fucked up, please make sure it contains the right items by copying the the working chests.[\edit]

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by Bilka » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:20 pm

I was testing something else and also noticed this. The attached save contains 3 simple setups. Rotating one of the input loaders of the middle setup to stop the input and then rotating it back will show that the items creep foward in the middle of the belt before the splitter:
Attachments
SplitterTest.zip
The save
(1.45 MiB) Downloaded 33 times
I'm an admin over at https://wiki.factorio.com. Feel free to contact me if there's anything wrong (or right) with it.

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by nuhll » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:47 pm

I dont understand the picture, what do i see there? :D

edit: okay at 2. picture i saw it, then i also saw it at the first. lol.

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by Aidiakapi » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:02 am

kovarex wrote:This particular behaviour is only happening when the belt is a circle
As you can very clearly see on the video I linked, it happens on straight track. It seems to be when a transition from white to blue state happens.
12 seconds in, the item after the second set of inserters on the left jumps forward, then at 19 seconds, that same item jumps forward again.
Last edited by Aidiakapi on Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:46 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by Monara » Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:07 pm

This is not exclusive to loops.

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Re: [kovarex] [16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by Notnaton » Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:48 am

Item creeps forward when its "loaded" to the next belt "section"...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnZzJmOQ7ww

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Re: [kovarex] [0.16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by BeeFriend » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:49 am

I'm seeing the effect with something I am working on, but much more pronounced.
Attachments
ClearSecondaryBass-size_restricted.gif
ClearSecondaryBass-size_restricted.gif (3.94 MiB) Viewed 4311 times

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Re: [kovarex] [0.16.1] Items on belt creeping forward at specific position

Post by mh_ » Fri Feb 02, 2018 11:20 pm

BeeFriend wrote:I'm seeing the effect with something I am working on, but much more pronounced.
Would you be so kind as to do the effort to blueprint your layout? From the video I cannot see the creeping and also cannot rule out the circuit network being at fault.

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