Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

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Tekillaa
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Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by Tekillaa »

TL;DR
Option to calculate Nuclear Reactor Electric Central BP Clone like the game do for solar panel and accumulator.

What ?
Is it possible to make an option(or maybe a mod?) that can identify a clone of the same "nuclear reactor blueprint" to calculate all others iterations of the blueprint as clone of the first? A bit like the game do for solar panel? It can be good to use lot of nuclear reactors with a moderate cost for updates efficiency?
List of conditions to be counted as clone: (?)(Just my first sight, maybe need few more conditions?)
- Close fluid loop : water supply include (water pump in), no fluid come in or out from the BP (water and steam)
- Perfect feeding for reactors : reactors have to be filled with nuclear fuel cells and have already consumed one or 2 so the BP is already "warmed up"
- Same electric network.
With a deeper reflexion, I think it's possible to extend the way of thinking for a 2n reactor too.
Edit : For the player : show somehow what are the "clones" (thks SoShootMe)
Why ?
To make nuclear energy viable for ultra late game/megafactory!
Usually people use 1 to 3 Blueprint of a same nuclear central: most of the time, waterpumps are in it thanks to landfilling, and the point of this way of thinking is to make a moderate cost for updates efficiency with electricity coming from nuclear reactors : the game process only one BP and others as clone of the first as long few conditions are filled and people will be able to create their own "power plant" BP, so it will not limit the player creativity. Like a marker announcing the bp as "power plant"

I know this idea is wierd, but I feel the game needs it to put nuclear energy as viable option for megafactory to not have only solar panels/accumulators fields as solution.

thanks, have fun, take care!
Last edited by Tekillaa on Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It should be add in the game: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67650 :)

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ssilk
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Re: Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by ssilk »

Reminds me to viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82060 Optimization idea: abstraction
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Tekillaa
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Re: Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by Tekillaa »

Exactly, but the conditions to be able to consider a "factory module" as clone is far more complicated considering the many inputs and outputs a factory can have. But for a powerplant, i feel it's really easy to make it work nice and the game will earn a good performance optimisation.
It should be add in the game: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67650 :)

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Re: Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by SoShootMe »

ssilk wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:24 am
Reminds me to viewtopic.php?f=6&t=82060 Optimization idea: abstraction
That was my first thought too, but the concept is a bit different. For "abstraction" the idea amounts to somehow validating a set of things can be replaced with a simpler model, then using that model instead of the full simulation. With "cloning" the idea is to have the full simulation still, but only for a single instance, and then duplicate the externally visible effects.

In both cases, I can only see it being remotely practical with boundaries defined by the player, eg something like Factorissimo. And if that is the case, I would say it is a fairly major change to the current gameplay: by itself probably enough to say it's extremely unlikely to happen, without considering other challenges (of which I think many remain, eg cloning would effectively require instances to be synchronised).

At least, I think there is more chance of fluid simulation changes improving performance sufficiently to make nuclear power viable for megabases, something that has broader benefit with less (or no) effect on gameplay.

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Re: Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by ssilk »

Ok, let it repeat me as so:
This is about copying a part of a factory many times. And given, that this part has the same input as the first, it should produce the same output.

Hm. I think the idea is cool but it is not so much easier, than the other. I think they have nearly the same complexity. Nevertheless this should be tried out somehow (as the abstraction idea).
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Tekillaa
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Re: Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by Tekillaa »

Dave McW found me a mod very near from the idea I suggest :
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/some-npp
but it's not completly my idea yet : I wish people to be able to build their own powerplant.

A nuclear powerplant with a BP with waterpump in got only one input : uranium fuel cells, and it's easy to create a condition checking if all reactor are filled and warmed up, making all clone as the same status as the first construction. Output being electricity on a same network and used up uranium cells, the "synchronisation" I ask are mostly for what goes beetween reactor and electricity output (heatpipes, pipes, heat exchanger and turbine) to avoid the same heat and fluid calculation for each powerplant if they are the same BP.

Abstraction is a way but this is not my first suggestion.
SoShootMe wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:19 pm
I would say it is a fairly major change to the current gameplay
In my POV, it's not entirely true : It will change nothing for the game play, people are still free to use as many different power plant BP they want, but there is at least a way to go big if necessary without the computer making calculation for something that we can consider as the same.

It's about a powerplant only, not a factory. This way to think works only because powerplants are on the same electricity network, they all share the same output. It's because of that condition that I believe my suggestion will work fine.
It should be add in the game: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67650 :)

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Re: Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by SoShootMe »

Tekillaa wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:44 am
SoShootMe wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 7:19 pm
I would say it is a fairly major change to the current gameplay
In my POV, it's not entirely true : It will change nothing for the game play, people are still free to use as many different power plant BP they want, but there is at least a way to go big if necessary without the computer making calculation for something that we can consider as the same.
You quoted without context but I was saying it seemed something like Factorissimo warehouses would be necessary to provide a means for the player to define the boundaries of what may be cloned. What I had in mind as "a fairly major change" was the space reduction, but I think it applies anyway, as there would have to be some other benefit to "boxing" the thing to be cloned, otherwise it's just... weird. Either way the result is a change how people play - though not necessarily how they must play - which is all I meant.
Tekillaa wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 10:44 am
It's about a powerplant only, not a factory. This way to think works only because powerplants are on the same electricity network, they all share the same output. It's because of that condition that I believe my suggestion will work fine.
Being on the same electric network is probably necessary, but as I see it there's nothing really special about cloning power plants (solar aside) compared to something else. For a nuclear power plant, there's the input of uranium fuel cells and water, and the output of used up uranium fuel cells; also, some energy is produced. A battery factory might have input of water, oil and ores, and output of batteries; also, some energy is consumed.

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Re: Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by Tekillaa »

Ok, sorry for my missunderstanding.

I was suggesting this set of conditions to be counted as clone :
Tekillaa wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:37 am
- Close fluid loop : water supply include (water pump in), no fluid come in or out from the BP (water and steam)
- Perfect feeding for reactors : reactors have to be filled with nuclear fuel cells and have already consumed one or 2 so the BP is already "warmed up"
- Same electric network.
About the water, if waterpumps are not in, maybe water tanks levels as input conditions?
I'm not suggesting something about space reduction, it's about how the computer updates entities for a power plant : the goal is to reduce the number of entites to refresh each tick if we use Nuclear reactor. And for the "boundaries of what can be cloned" as long the set of conditions are filled, just an attribute on the powerplant BP? (something that make a link for entities such as: heat pipes, pipes, tanks, heat exchangers, turbines and pumps)
I was making that suggestion because most of megafactories use solarpanels/accumulator to improve the UPS efficiency and I think the game will earn quality if we let more solutions availables for players about energy production. (for 5 GW+).
If I limit my suggestion to a powerplant only (preferably with closed fluid system), it's because for a factory, too many things are to consider : water oils and ores? If inputs are not perfectly filled, how to reproduce each gap on a belt, so each inserter behavior? There is too many checks to do to apply this way of thinking to a factory, but it's trivial for a power plant as long reactors got fuels cells in.
It should be add in the game: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67650 :)

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Re: Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by SoShootMe »

Tekillaa wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:34 pm
Ok, sorry for my missunderstanding.
Looks like I owe you a bigger apology...
Tekillaa wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:34 pm
I was suggesting this set of conditions to be counted as clone :
Tekillaa wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 7:37 am
- Close fluid loop : water supply include (water pump in), no fluid come in or out from the BP (water and steam)
- Perfect feeding for reactors : reactors have to be filled with nuclear fuel cells and have already consumed one or 2 so the BP is already "warmed up"
- Same electric network.
Sorry, I should have addressed these conditions directly. I'm not sure how water pumps inside would work without strange restrictions to take advantage of cloning, and more importantly it doesn't address other inputs or outputs, but...
Tekillaa wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:34 pm
About the water, if waterpumps are not in, maybe water tanks levels as input conditions?
Yes, something like that could (theoretically) work. The same with chests for item inputs, which is a generalisation of reactors being filed with uranium fuel cells. Also similar for fluid and item outputs (but space for them instead of supply of them).
Tekillaa wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:34 pm
And for the "boundaries of what can be cloned" as long the set of conditions are filled, just an attribute on the powerplant BP?
As far as I know, once placed, there is no longer any connection to a blueprint, just a collection of things in the world. The attribute needs to persist, and I think the player needs to be able to see it. Something like a Factorissimo warehouse ;).
Tekillaa wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:34 pm
If I limit my suggestion to a powerplant only (preferably with closed fluid system), it's because for a factory, too many things are to consider : water oils and ores? If inputs are not perfectly filled, how to reproduce each gap on a belt, so each inserter behavior? There is too many checks to do to apply this way of thinking to a factory, but it's trivial for a power plant as long reactors got fuels cells in.
Too many checks is not really the problem, if they are only on the input and output; still far less than all the parts, that would be repeated many times over due to clones.

(I'll read any reply, but I suspect this has at least reached the point I have nothing more to contribute.)

Tekillaa
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Re: Nuclear Reactors BluePrint Cloning

Post by Tekillaa »

SoShootMe wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:10 pm
The attribute needs to persist, and I think the player needs to be able to see it. Something like a Factorissimo warehouse ;).
This is definitely what I was missing and it is essential, thanks a lot for pointing this out.
It should be add in the game: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=67650 :)

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