Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" or "Shift-Scrollwheel" of regular Concrete.

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Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" or "Shift-Scrollwheel" of regular Concrete.

Post by GregoriusT »

The Edit below is way better than my original Suggestion.

(Let's see how many people only read the Title and freak out about how Hazard Concrete can be rotated already and how this would clash with existing Mechanics, even though this would clearly not clash)

Having to craft Hazard Versions separately and not having the option to revert those back to normal Concrete can be a huge waste of resources, should you ever decide to design your Stuff differently, or worse: Decide to upgrade your regular Concrete to a better Concrete, but cannot do so for the old Hazard Concrete, which is then wasted forever along with your old Burner Inserters and Steam Engines.

This Suggestion should change it for the better of everyone, so here is my Idea of how it would work without even screwing over anybody.

There is at least 3 different rotation Mechanics ingame: "Rotate already existing Entity", "Rotate what you hold on Cursor" and "Rotate Blueprint/Paste". We are going to talk about the latter two, since you cannot rotate existing Tiles (not clickable, nor should it ever be clickable).

"Rotate what you hold on Cursor" just cycles through the Options you have for the specified Item, a Rail for example would rotate 45° per Rotation
"Rotate Blueprint/Paste" on the other hand will instead always try 90° turns (or 180° if something semi-un-rotateable is in it)
(even if i misunderstand something here, the Devs have full power over the engine, so they could easily change it ofcourse)

Now as you can see, the Cursor Item has a fundamentally different Behavior compared to the Blueprint Rotation.

This means you could cycle through the different Types of Hazard Designs (///// and \\\\\) along with the normal plain Design, when using the Cursor Rotation, while if you hold a Blueprint in your Hand it can only rotate the Hazard Design into its opposite stripes (90°), while keeping plain Concrete un-"rotated" as is.

This also makes it much simpler to add the Dev/Cheat-only Colored Concrete Tiles to the normal Game, as they would only be a rotation of regular Concrete as opposed to a spam of even more un-re-usable Concrete Recipes!

And not only that, you know how Construction Bots can place multiple Tiles at once? If the Concrete you use has the same placer Item, then Bots could pave the World in a mix of Concrete and Hazard Concrete slightly faster too!

Not to mention the Decorative Concrete Mods which could profit from this change!

No longer do you have to worry about the weird ratio of Concrete and Hazard Concrete in your Storages when planning to pave a huge Area.
No longer do you waste Concrete to stuff you can not upgrade to the more Advanced Concrete later on!
No longer do you have to waste 2 Slots for some decorative flair since you can just "rotate"-cycle the Item as needed!
No longer do Mods have to add Reverse Recipes or Alternate Recipes for making each type of Concrete usable!
Everybody Wins!


LARGE EDIT:

The way that I would personally prefer for Concrete, after all of these nice Suggestions would be as follows.

- Make Concrete and all of it's Hazard Variants the same Placer Item.
- Have all the Hazard Concretes drop the normal plain Concrete when deconstructed or harvested. (potentially also same for Colored Concretes should they be allowed)
- Let the placer Item for Concrete act like a Blueprint Book when it comes to Shift+Scrolling. (instead of my original Rotation Idea)
- Let each Placer Item in your Hotbar save the Design that got last selected, so you can have multiple Concrete Designs on your Hotbar. (No crafting of Designs needed at all whatsoever if it is like this!)
- Keep the ///// and \\\\\ versions Rotations of each other like before.
- Put a Tooltip on Concrete that there is Designs to select so people actually know it can be done. (similar to the Tile Removal Tooltip)
- Ofcourse the Placer Item would still act like a Tile Brush, and still be able to place both, Ghosts and Tiles like it already does.
- Add some sort of Modding API Hook to add Designs. The old way of crafting each Design will still work, but the new way would be preferable.
- Generally just assume everything not mentioned continues to work as is.
Last edited by GregoriusT on Fri Mar 20, 2020 8:11 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by leadraven »

1. You will get tired to "rotate" with decorative mods.
2. Why do you use hazard regular concrete at all?
3. It will not be easy to rotate blueprint with concrete.
4. 100% like this idea.

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by Deadlock989 »

Sounds like micro-management to me.
GregoriusT wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:07 am
This also makes it much simpler to add the Dev/Cheat-only Colored Concrete Tiles to the normal Game
It's not in the vanilla game because it massively falls below the art standards for the game and the devs have said it is never going to be more than a quick fix for a specific scenario, not because it's difficult to do.
Last edited by Deadlock989 on Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by Optera »

In base this may come in handy.
In modded games this would become a nightmare. Having to press r a dozen times to cycle through all possible concrete paints added by something like Dectorio would be far worse than just building the stupid tiles.

Alternative proposal:
- painted concrete can be crafted instantly
- painted concrete ghosts can be built with normal concrete
- mining painted concrete yields unpainted concrete

Alternate proposal 2:
- painting can be done with a planner
- mining painted concrete should again yield unpainted concrete

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by boskid »

So you place hazard concrete under some buildings, create a blueprint of entities with tiles, then you want to use blueprint but rotated 90 degrees, and hazard concrete turns into regular one?

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by GregoriusT »

boskid wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:25 am
So you place hazard concrete under some buildings, create a blueprint of entities with tiles, then you want to use blueprint but rotated 90 degrees, and hazard concrete turns into regular one?
Uh no I explicitely stated that Hazard Concrete stays Hazard Concrete just like it did before but turned 90° like it also did before? Nothing changes for Blueprint Users. Only Tile Brush changes Rotation Behavior to change to the Design you want.
Optera wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:22 am
Alternative proposal:
- painted concrete can be crafted instantly
- painted concrete ghosts can be built with normal concrete
- mining painted concrete yields unpainted concrete

Alternate proposal 2:
- painting can be done with a planner
- mining painted concrete should again yield unpainted concrete
Proposal 1:
- That would spam Crafting Recipes, and we all know how Reversal Recipes are not gonna become a thing. (even though you could reverse it by placing and breaking ofcourse if it is fully implemented the way you suggest)
- This is EXACTLY what I want and am talking about!
- Again EXACTLY what I want it to be!

Proposal 2:
- Also a good Idea, though it would kinda force you to not use a Brush to do it, making it harder to paint.
- Yes indeed, like Proposal 1.

Edit: I did not expect "having only one concrete type, but have its designs be selected in the tile brush like rotations" to be misinterpreted so much...

Edit 2: Because Quotes are hard to deal with on this Forum Software:
Cycling through the Designs with Dectorio can be a bit tedious indeed, especially if the colored Concretes are going to be allowed. I know Factorio is not about Decorative Design Art Stuff, but the few things that we do have options for could be implemented better.

If anything could be taken away from this suggestion I would at least have it be Hazard Concrete turning to normal Concrete when harvested. And secondary have all Concrete Design Ghosts be placeable with normal Concrete.
Last edited by GregoriusT on Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by Deadlock989 »

GregoriusT wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:43 am
Uh no I explicitely stated that Hazard Concrete stays Hazard Concrete just like it did before but turned 90° like it also did before? Nothing changes for Blueprint Users only Tile Brush changes Rotation Behavior to change to the Design you want.
How would that be actually implemented?

Hazard concrete is rotated with the rotate button because it is literally rotated. Rotating tiles with the default "rotate" button is not some magic keyboard shortcut for selecting arbitrary variations of a tile: it is literally rotating the designs on the tile. Hazard concrete has a visual design that can be rotated. Regular concrete doesn't. If you mix the two, everything is screwed. We don't want everything to be screwed.

For this proposal to work, you would need to complicate the definition of all tiles (and maybe items that can place tiles) to define ranges of "rotations" which are not really rotations but blocks of various rotatable designs. Otherwise, the ability to rotate blueprints with rotatable tiles in would be permanently screwed. But that sounds like a massive pain in the arse for modders.

Also, every existing blueprint that has concrete in it - literally millions of them across the world - would be screwed. You'd need some fancy migration to fix them all.

PS. Please learn to write 21st century English. It's not hard, I have German family whose standard of English is much worse than yours and yet they all seem to be able to grasp capitalisation.
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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by GregoriusT »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:49 am
GregoriusT wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:43 am
Uh no I explicitely stated that Hazard Concrete stays Hazard Concrete just like it did before but turned 90° like it also did before? Nothing changes for Blueprint Users only Tile Brush changes Rotation Behavior to change to the Design you want.
How would that be actually implemented?

Hazard concrete is rotated with the rotate button because it is literally rotated. Rotating tiles with the default "rotate" button is not some magic keyboard shortcut for selecting arbitrary variations of a tile: it is literally rotating the designs on the tile. Hazard concrete has a visual design that can be rotated. Regular concrete doesn't. If you mix the two, everything is screwed. We don't want everything to be screwed.

For this proposal to work, you would need to complicate the definition of all tiles (and maybe items that can place tiles) to define ranges of "rotations" which are not really rotations but blocks of various rotatable designs. Otherwise, blueprints are screwed. But that sounds like a massive pain in the arse for modders.
Again, this is not a suggestion to add a Mod, this is a suggestion for an improvement for everyone, just because you dont know how to do it, doesn't mean the rest of us and the Factorio Devs cant find at least hypothetical ways how to do it, without having you ignore literally everything that has been said before. Don't think there would not be at least hooks to make this work for Modders in the end. Also you completely ignored the first line of my Thread.

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by Deadlock989 »

GregoriusT wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:00 pm
Again, this is not a suggestion to add a Mod, this is a suggestion for an improvement for everyone, just because you dont know how to do it, doesn't mean the rest of us and the Factorio Devs cant find at least hypothetical ways how to do it, without having you ignore literally everything that has been said before. Don't think there would not be at least hooks to make this work for Modders in the end. Also you completely ignored the first line of my Thread.
And I am pointing out just some of the actual technical features, changes and challenges that would need to be implemented to accomodate this half-baked idea you had.

You're welcome.
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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by leadraven »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:49 am
GregoriusT wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:43 am
Uh no I explicitely stated that Hazard Concrete stays Hazard Concrete just like it did before but turned 90° like it also did before? Nothing changes for Blueprint Users only Tile Brush changes Rotation Behavior to change to the Design you want.
How would that be actually implemented?

Hazard concrete is rotated with the rotate button because it is literally rotated. Rotating tiles with the default "rotate" button is not some magic keyboard shortcut for selecting arbitrary variations of a tile: it is literally rotating the designs on the tile. Hazard concrete has a visual design that can be rotated. Regular concrete doesn't. If you mix the two, everything is screwed. We don't want everything to be screwed.

For this proposal to work, you would need to complicate the definition of all tiles (and maybe items that can place tiles) to define ranges of "rotations" which are not really rotations but blocks of various rotatable designs. Otherwise, the ability to rotate blueprints with rotatable tiles in would be permanently screwed. But that sounds like a massive pain in the arse for modders.

Also, every existing blueprint that has concrete in it - literally millions of them across the world - would be screwed. You'd need some fancy migration to fix them all.

PS. Please learn to write 21st century English. It's not hard, I have German family whose standard of English is much worse than yours and yet they all seem to be able to grasp capitalisation.
Like TS already mentioned, rails default rotation behaviour is 45' rotation, but in blueprint rails rotate 90' like everything else. That means concrete may do the same : to have different rotation policies by itself and in blueprint.
P.S. And keep your english to yourself.

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by Deadlock989 »

leadraven wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:06 pm
Like TS already mentioned, rails default rotation behaviour is 45' rotation, but in blueprint rails rotate 90' like everything else. That means concrete may do the same : to have different rotation policies by itself and in blueprint.
P.S. And keep your english to yourself.
Where are these "policies" stored, then? How are they defined?

How much work will it be, collectively, for everyone to retrofit their mods to accommodate the new tile definitions?

How much time should the devs spend on working out how to migrate every existing blueprint to reflect this completely different way of defining tiles? Which of the current tasks that are being worked on, in the weeks remaining before the game leaves beta, should they de-prioritise in order to work on this?

If people are communicating poorly and their text style is needlessly difficult to read, it's apparently fair game to tell them.
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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by leadraven »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:17 pm
Where are these "policies" stored, then? How are they defined?

How much work will it be, collectively, for everyone to retrofit their mods to accommodate the new tile definitions?

How much time should the devs spend on working out how to migrate every existing blueprint to reflect this completely different way of defining tiles? Which of the current tasks that are being worked on, in the weeks remaining before the game leaves beta, should they de-prioritise in order to work on this?
Backward compatibility of save files, blueprints and mods isn't a big issue until 1.0.
Only devs know how much time and effort will it take to implement. Don't warry for them. Our job is to suggest good ideas.

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by Deadlock989 »

leadraven wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:31 pm
Backward compatibility of save files, blueprints and mods isn't a big issue until 1.0.
Only devs know how much time and effort will it take to implement. Don't warry for them. Our job is to suggest good ideas.
Funny, I formed the impression that people's existing saved games had some minimal importance.

But yeah, it would be nice to see some good ideas here occasionally, backed up by some concrete (ha ha, do you see what I did there) ideas for how they might look in the game data, instead of just waving hands and saying "This would be brilliant and suits my play style perfectly, now I leave the mere detail of how to make it happen to someone else".

I wonder what the actual take-up rate for "suggestions" in this sub-forum actually is. How many decimal places would we need?
Last edited by Deadlock989 on Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by GregoriusT »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:17 pm
leadraven wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:06 pm
Like TS already mentioned, rails default rotation behaviour is 45' rotation, but in blueprint rails rotate 90' like everything else. That means concrete may do the same : to have different rotation policies by itself and in blueprint.
P.S. And keep your english to yourself.
1. Where are these "policies" stored, then? How are they defined?
2. How much work will it be, collectively, for everyone to retrofit their mods to accommodate the new tile definitions?
3. How much time should the devs spend on working out how to migrate every existing blueprint to reflect this completely different way of defining tiles?
4. Which of the current tasks that are being worked on, in the weeks remaining before the game leaves beta, should they de-prioritise in order to work on this?
1. This is left to the Factorio Devs, but should be very trivial to implement.
2. None when it comes to backwards compat. Only Dectorio would need to change.
3. Next to zero time, there is already a Migration System in Factorio if you forgot about that.
4. This is not YOUR matter. You do not have to decide about this, nor should you ever think that way about any Suggestion, because the Devs are the ones deciding, not you and not me.
Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:33 pm
leadraven wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:31 pm
Backward compatibility of save files, blueprints and mods isn't a big issue until 1.0.
Only devs know how much time and effort will it take to implement. Don't warry for them. Our job is to suggest good ideas.
But yeah, it would be nice to see some good ideas here occasionally.
For that you should not scare people off the Suggestion and Idea Board.

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by Deadlock989 »

GregoriusT wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:35 pm
1. This is left to the Factorio Devs, but should be very trivial to implement.
2. None when it comes to backwards compat. Only Dectorio would need to change.
3. Next to zero time, there is already a Migration System in Factorio if you forgot about that.
4. This is not YOUR matter. You do not have to decide about this, nor should you ever think that way about any Suggestion, because the Devs are the ones deciding, not you and not me.
If it's so trivial, it'll only take you a few minutes to tap out some actual data structures for it.

I think there's a slim chance that there may be some other mods that provide tiles or modify vanilla concrete. Just a hunch.

How would you define a migration for concrete rotations in blueprints that suddenly aren't just rotations? It would need to be done in the control stage as every player joined the game with their huge individual blueprint libraries. What do you think that would look like? Just a quick draft would do. What do you think the performance implications might be?

I'm not deciding anything. This is a discussion board. I'm discussing the idea as presented.
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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by Deadlock989 »

Genius idea:

I can't be bothered with all these different buttons to click for different power poles. I mean, ugh, buttons.

Let's make small power poles and medium power poles "rotations" of each other.

What could possibly go wrong?

Very trivial to implement, I expect.
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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by Oktokolo »

Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:51 pm
Let's make small power poles and medium power poles "rotations" of each other.
Having only one item type for placing small, medium or big power pole entities would actually be nice to have.

Other items and entities they should be able to place:
- yellow/red/blue belt -> belt or underground belt (costs mutiple belt items)
- pipe -> pipe or underground pipe (costs mutiple belt items)
- rail signal -> rail signal or chain signal.
- wall -> wall or gate

Overloading the rotation key for the entity selection could work. But defining a separate shortcut for that would probably be less confusing.

The engine could detect recipes wich have a zero crafting time and treat results of such recipes as being available as if the player had such items in inventory as long as she has enough of the recipe's ingredients.
On placing, the item is instantly crafted and consumed by placing the corresponding entity.
On mining, the entity would be converted into its mine result as usual (wich would be N of the simpler item; this is already implemented).

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by conn11 »

Oktokolo wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:38 am
Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:51 pm
Let's make small power poles and medium power poles "rotations" of each other.
Having only one item type for placing small, medium or big power pole entities would actually be nice to have.

Other items and entities they should be able to place:
- yellow/red/blue belt -> belt or underground belt (costs mutiple belt items)
- pipe -> pipe or underground pipe (costs mutiple belt items)
- rail signal -> rail signal or chain signal.
- wall -> wall or gate

Overloading the rotation key for the entity selection could work. But defining a separate shortcut for that would probably be less confusing.

The engine could detect recipes wich have a zero crafting time and treat results of such recipes as being available as if the player had such items in inventory as long as she has enough of the recipe's ingredients.
On placing, the item is instantly crafted and consumed by placing the corresponding entity.
On mining, the entity would be converted into its mine result as usual (wich would be N of the simpler item; this is already implemented).
If having different tiers of items available by just picking one up in the cursor as a QoL sort of improvement, something like this is implementing it, without changing any recipes.

Actually handcrafting higher tierd items on the spot, would significantly reduce production chains , require modification to the fluid system (to be handcraftable) and more importantly flood the inventory with otherwise more or less useless intermediates to the point of beeing inventory space inefficient.

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Re: Game Design: Make Hazard Concrete just a "Rotation" of regular Concrete.

Post by GregoriusT »

Oktokolo wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:38 am
Deadlock989 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 12:51 pm
Let's make small power poles and medium power poles "rotations" of each other.
Having only one item type for placing small, medium or big power pole entities would actually be nice to have.

Other items and entities they should be able to place:
- yellow/red/blue belt -> belt or underground belt (costs multiple belt items)
- pipe -> pipe or underground pipe (costs multiple belt items)
- rail signal -> rail signal or chain signal.
- wall -> wall or gate

Overloading the rotation key for the entity selection could work. But defining a separate shortcut for that would probably be less confusing.
Yeah for this one a new Key would be needed. And I am personally more of a "the fewer required Keybinds the better" person, trying to re-use bindings as much as logically doable. Though this is clearly not a required Keybind so the Option for it should exist.

Of these 4 Item Types, only two could feasibly use the Rotation Key, the Pipes and the Wall Gates. Rail Signals are rotation dependent (especially in tight places), and Belts would be even more of a nightmare if Rotation was used.
darkfrei wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:48 pm
Some bugs with blueprints, it has 4 rotations for 3 tiles.
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/MultiConcrete
So apparently browsing through the entire List of 0.17.79 compatible Mods that I did a couple of weeks ago, did not net me that Mod (yes that took hours to do). And the Forums Search did not net me the corresponding Suggestion for it because it was in a different Category. Good to know that there is problems with that Mod, which might warrant a change in the API, that is if this can't be fixed easily to work with Blueprints.


The way that I would personally prefer for Concrete, after all of these nice Suggestions would be as follows.

- Make Concrete and all of it's Hazard Variants the same Placer Item.
- Have all the Hazard Concretes drop the normal plain Concrete when deconstructed or harvested. (potentially also same for Colored Concretes should they be allowed)
- Let the placer Item for Concrete act like a Blueprint Book when it comes to Shift+Scrolling. (instead of my original Rotation Idea)
- Let each Placer Item in your Hotbar save the Design that got last selected, so you can have multiple Concrete Designs on your Hotbar. (No crafting of Designs needed at all whatsoever if it is like this!)
- Keep the ///// and \\\\\ versions Rotations of each other like before.
- Put a Tooltip on Concrete that there is Designs to select so people actually know it can be done. (similar to the Tile Removal Tooltip)
- Ofcourse the Placer Item would still act like a Tile Brush, and still be able to place both, Ghosts and Tiles like it already does.
- Add some sort of Modding API Hook to add Designs. The old way of crafting each Design will still work, but the new way would be preferable.
- Generally just assume everything not mentioned continues to work as is.

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