[0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

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hackamod
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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by hackamod »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun May 08, 2022 2:08 am
I already explained, how I add blueprints to the book in library without using inventory and without open the library with B:
I already explained, I do not want to pollute the inventory .......... OR ......... the blueprint library with needless trash.
One of the reasons this is a nice change.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by shopt »

Others have made the point that copy paste does what is wanted for the most part. I'll admit sometimes I have wanted pipette to copy recipe too, but the two issues I see are:
1. You generally use pipette to just get a machine ghost in hand without having to search inventory or quick bars. If you drop a machine with the wrong recipe, yes you'll correct it eventually but who knows how many belts/chests get contaminated in the meantime and how many resources get fed into the wrong recipe before it gets fixed. Sure, not an issue in your megabase, but with certain mods or early game, could be quite a setback. This is far from "no downside".
2. Does this behavior apply to other copyable settings? Modules? Operation modes? Enable conditions? Combinator settings? If yes I think this quickly turns pipette from a handy tool to a risky tool to be careful using. If no, then we have inconsistent behavior and production machines become a special case. Much more intuitive if pipette, inventory, and quick bars all behave the same, and copy/BP operates the way they do rather than add a third behavior.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by hackamod »

shopt wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 6:37 am
1. You generally use pipette to just get a machine ghost in hand without having to search inventory or quick bars.
This would not change, and would continue to operate as expected.
shopt wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 6:37 am
If you drop a machine with the wrong recipe, yes you'll correct it eventually but who knows how many belts/chests get contaminated in the meantime and how many resources get fed into the wrong recipe before it gets fixed. Sure, not an issue in your megabase, but with certain mods or early game, could be quite a setback. This is far from "no downside".
Player mistakes are never a concern, pay attention to what you are doing. Again.... see above....The current use of Q does not change, just an additional feature is unlocked. If you don't want the recipe on the nearby item, just press Q... If you want that recipe, Alt+Q ... or pick your own hotkey
shopt wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 6:37 am
2. Does this behavior apply to other copyable settings? Modules? Operation modes? Enable conditions? Combinator settings?
Yes. Everything. Recipe. Modules. Standing requests for modules if that is the case. Exactly as it is .... copy that
If you don't want to copy the everything..... simply use Q as you do now without troubles.
shopt wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 6:37 am
If yes I think this quickly turns pipette from a handy tool to a risky tool to be careful using.
This only adds advanced ability on top of current functionality through the use of a new hotkey that can simply be ignored if not desired.
Perhaps it is a more advanced feature of the GUI for the experienced player looking for a faster way. This is not something I would expect everyone to use, but I expect it to be so useful for the ones who do use it.
shopt wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 6:37 am
If no, then we have inconsistent behavior and production machines become a special case. Much more intuitive if pipette, inventory, and quick bars all behave the same, and copy/BP operates the way they do rather than add a third behavior.
ya..... keep it simple..... Q copies as is, new hotkey combo grabs a twin copy of everything as it sits all inclusive.....Any setting or change or adjustment that the player could make to the entity, copy it.


Many builds use symmetry where there is a standardized access to I/O for each component. As a base grows, it is EXTREMELY common to need to copy THAT ... right there, exactly as it sits, and put a twin to it right here in this new spot reserved for it.
The current way you have no choice but to pollute one inventory or another, or take a multiple step process to update the settings.
This is not a request for something that does not exist, it does not allow a player to do something the game does not currently offer.... it adapts something that is possible now (ctrl-c) and removes the fact that it MUST pollute one inventory or another.

For the record, "inventories" include the player inventory, the blueprint library, and the Ctrl+C histroy..... keeping in mind this is the key reason behind the request

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by jodokus31 »

hackamod wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 2:59 am
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun May 08, 2022 2:08 am
I already explained, how I add blueprints to the book in library without using inventory and without open the library with B:
I already explained, I do not want to pollute the inventory .......... OR ......... the blueprint library with needless trash.
One of the reasons this is a nice change.
If you use Ctrl-C, your blueprint library is not affected at all. You can however quickly add a blueprint to it.
I'm not sure what your problem is with "polluting" the Copy/Paste history. If you use it as (unreliable) container for useful blueprints, I would rather add them to blueprint library like described. Other than that, I'm not sure what could be a problem to use this tool, as it is intended.

Anyway, I would be ok with adding a new hotkey, which doesn't collide.
Regarding implementation, it is probably a new type of feature, which doesn't exist yet. Make a copy of an entity, put it in the characters hand and be able to place it normal or as ghost including settings and content (f.e. modules)

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by robot256 »

Pretty sure it would be trivial to add a mod that adds this behavior. It would simply create a temporary blueprint in the cursor of whatever you have selected, and delete it afterwards. It might make sense to add it to Slightly Smarter Pipette as an option.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by hackamod »

robot256 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 3:18 pm
Pretty sure it would be trivial to add a mod that adds this behavior.
That is a poor suggestion for any existing suggestion. Then people have to use the same mods to play together.

This request does not change the existing interface (just adds to it), it does not add new functionality to the game (Ctrl+C already does what I want), it is just a cleaner way to do the same thing to allow a player to work on more things at a time without destructive side effects (Ctrl+C is destructive in one way or another).

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by robot256 »

hackamod wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 6:55 pm
robot256 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 3:18 pm
Pretty sure it would be trivial to add a mod that adds this behavior.
That is a poor suggestion for any existing suggestion. Then people have to use the same mods to play together.
It's the best suggestion for a controversial suggestion like this one. If people don't agree with you on the forum, maybe they will understand if they get to try it in the game. Using a mod to explain the concept is the best way to communicate it, if it's something that is possible to do. And the behavior can be controlled by a "runtime per-user" mod setting, so that not everybody in the same game needs to enable it if they don't like it (same as a Vanilla QoL option).

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by jodokus31 »

Also this sticky topic regarding mods:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=30240

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by hackamod »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 11:38 am
If you use Ctrl-C, your blueprint library is not affected at all. You can however quickly add a blueprint to it.
I'm not sure what your problem is with "polluting" the Copy/Paste history. If you use it as (unreliable) container for useful blueprints, I would rather add them to blueprint library like described.
You totally must have skipped the posts about this part (KEY POINT) .... this is a request for a pipette tool, not a request to handle secret government blueprints with care...... I do NOT want a bluprint that I MUST DELETE LATER.
As far as Ctrl-C ... 2 problems arise:
First, the history is limited, so every addition means another loss.
Second, and perhaps the bigger annoyance of the two, when I return to the paste history, I now have a piece of junk to scroll past as I work.
...and another one for every expansion/interruption ...or should I say as Factorio acts like Factorio.
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 11:38 am
Anyway, I would be ok with adding a new hotkey, which doesn't collide.
Awesome, as most people should... as it would not change what they do or how they do it in any way whatsoever.
It would merely add a new option for those who selected to use it.
Again, something to gain, nothing to lose.
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 11:38 am
Make a copy of an entity, put it in the characters hand and be able to place it normal or as ghost including settings and content (f.e. modules)
I think placing an entity with recpies/modules/etc included would be OP, as it would change gameplay and provide an advantage that currently does not exist. There is currently no way to place an item in one move with everything included.
This request is for ghost mode only. If you were to try to place this "with recipes" version, it should place the blank ghost as if Q was used and not Alt+Q (or whatever hotkey)

robot256 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 11:44 pm
It's the best suggestion for a controversial suggestion like this one.
This is not actually controversial ..... it is misunderstood, repeatedly.
Every complaint of this has been one of misunderstanding the request. My fault, I have a hard time with words.
I will try to summarize it.

1: Using Q does not change in any way at all.
2: Adding a new hotkey will Ctrl-C the next entity you click, except this does not go in copy/paste history, and it is not automatically left in inventory as a blueprint unless you choose to put it in your inventory or library.
Perhaps I should have posted this as a Ctrl-C upgrade instead ... not sure. Feels pipetteish to me.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by robot256 »

robot256 wrote: It would simply create a temporary blueprint in the cursor of whatever you have selected, and delete it afterwards.
(The point of the mod would be to do the deletion for you automatically)
robot256 wrote:If people don't agree with you on the forum, maybe they will understand if they get to try it in the game
Have a nice day.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by FuryoftheStars »

hackamod wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 am
This is not actually controversial ..... it is misunderstood, repeatedly.
Oh, we understand perfectly, we just disagree with your stance and reasoning.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by jodokus31 »

hackamod wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 am
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 11:38 am
If you use Ctrl-C, your blueprint library is not affected at all. You can however quickly add a blueprint to it.
I'm not sure what your problem is with "polluting" the Copy/Paste history. If you use it as (unreliable) container for useful blueprints, I would rather add them to blueprint library like described.
You totally must have skipped the posts about this part (KEY POINT) .... this is a request for a pipette tool, not a request to handle secret government blueprints with care...... I do NOT want a bluprint that I MUST DELETE LATER.
As far as Ctrl-C ... 2 problems arise:
First, the history is limited, so every addition means another loss.
Second, and perhaps the bigger annoyance of the two, when I return to the paste history, I now have a piece of junk to scroll past as I work.
...and another one for every expansion/interruption ...or should I say as Factorio acts like Factorio.
I did not skip anything. I just don't see any problem with it (not a matter of misunderstanding, but disagreeing) and tried to explain my workflow (which I will stop now). I also get, that's obviously a problem to you and you seem to don't accept any different solution than your own idea. But honestly, that's not my problem.
hackamod wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 am
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 11:38 am
Anyway, I would be ok with adding a new hotkey, which doesn't collide.
Awesome, as most people should... as it would not change what they do or how they do it in any way whatsoever.
It would merely add a new option for those who selected to use it.
Again, something to gain, nothing to lose.
People should nothing, and devs do what they think is good. If they see this suggestion, they decide if it's worth. I would not wait, but rather implement a mod. You will notice, if people yearn for this feature and the probability that it gets added to vanilla gets higher.
hackamod wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 am
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 11:38 am
Make a copy of an entity, put it in the characters hand and be able to place it normal or as ghost including settings and content (f.e. modules)
I think placing an entity with recpies/modules/etc included would be OP, as it would change gameplay and provide an advantage that currently does not exist. There is currently no way to place an item in one move with everything included.
This request is for ghost mode only. If you were to try to place this "with recipes" version, it should place the blank ghost as if Q was used and not Alt+Q (or whatever hotkey)
Agree with this. But, unfortunately, that is IMO a reason less to implement it. If you just want the Ctrl+C feature, without storing in Copy/Paste history, it's quite a weak reason honestly.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by hackamod »

robot256 wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 12:28 pm
robot256 wrote: It would simply create a temporary blueprint in the cursor of whatever you have selected, and delete it afterwards.
(The point of the mod would be to do the deletion for you automatically)
robot256 wrote:If people don't agree with you on the forum, maybe they will understand if they get to try it in the game
Have a nice day.
When someone makes a request, without a specific side effect, then a solution must not contain that side effect.
I can already make blueprints and delete them later. The point is that it causes extra, unnecessary work.
Have a nice day too.

FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 1:30 pm
hackamod wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 am
This is not actually controversial ..... it is misunderstood, repeatedly.
Oh, we understand perfectly, we just disagree with your stance and reasoning.
Perhaps one day when your skills improve at the keyboard and at the game, that might change. Get moar gud :/
If i was requesting a change that changed the average players experience, I would understand some kickback.
You can simply ignore this if you dont want it. In such a case, your disagreement for my stance and reasoning is irrelevant.

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Sun May 15, 2022 11:38 am
tried to explain my workflow (which I will stop now).
Thank you. Whew.
Try to remember this post is about MY workflow, aaaaaand if i wanted to know your workflow, I would have searched for a thread with that title.
Instead I posted THIS.... which shows a better way..... but for the limited few who have dfgh as their home keys for the left hand.... and utilize the whoke keyboard as a set of functions.... This is not for the average player, but a fine polish on a clean machine.

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 4:05 pm
tried to explain my workflow (which I will stop now). I also get, that's obviously a problem to you and you seem to don't accept any different solution than your own idea.
Because currently every "solution" has contained one of the side effects I am trying to avoid. Therefore not actually a solution, just another way to do it using the same tool set. This new tool would provide an advantage to those who use it, and not have any negative side effect to any other player at any other time.

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 4:05 pm
People should nothing,
Do you seriously represent that the average person should not agree with a change that one person wants when that change does not have any negative effect on them. This speaks on your character.
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 4:05 pm
If you just want the Ctrl+C feature, without storing in Copy/Paste history, it's quite a weak reason honestly.
...again.... not actually a valid point, just some more reflection on your character. All I hear from you is "You cant have it because I dont want it for myself"

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by robot256 »

I remembered an obscure feature and tested it just now. I think the feature you want may already exist in vanilla.

1. In Vanilla Factorio, use "Alt-B" to get the "select blueprint" tool.
2. Hold shift and click on an assembler.
3. You instantly get a blueprint ghost in your cursor of the assembler with its recipe, and no menus appear just like copy paste, but it does not get added to your copy-paste history.
4. Place the blueprint wherever you like.
5. Press Q and the blueprint is erased from your cursor. It never goes into your inventory unless you press E and drop it from your cursor into your inventory.

Is this the functionality that you were looking for? Perhaps all you need to do is remap the keys to be more convenient. I'm sorry none of us remembered this sooner, it might have shortened the discussion considerably.

(P.S. Normally I use it the other way: Shift-click with the Copy tool to edit the copied blueprint in the blueprint GUI. This is how you can get things like trains, stations without names, and entities+tiles into your copy-paste history.)

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by FuryoftheStars »

hackamod wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 4:48 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 1:30 pm
hackamod wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:08 am
This is not actually controversial ..... it is misunderstood, repeatedly.
Oh, we understand perfectly, we just disagree with your stance and reasoning.
Perhaps one day when your skills improve at the keyboard and at the game, that might change. Get moar gud :/
If i was requesting a change that changed the average players experience, I would understand some kickback.
You can simply ignore this if you dont want it. In such a case, your disagreement for my stance and reasoning is irrelevant.
How about not being a rude arse?

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by hackamod »

robot256 wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 5:07 pm
I remembered an obscure feature and tested it just now. I think the feature you want may already exist in vanilla.

1. In Vanilla Factorio, use "Alt-B" to get the "select blueprint" tool.
2. Hold shift and click on an assembler.
3. You instantly get a blueprint ghost in your cursor of the assembler with its recipe, and no menus appear just like copy paste, but it does not get added to your copy-paste history.
4. Place the blueprint wherever you like.
5. Press Q and the blueprint is erased from your cursor. It never goes into your inventory unless you press E and drop it from your cursor into your inventory.
YES!! Thank you so much β™₯ β™₯ β™₯
*Note* Step 5: Pressing Q does not clear the cursor for me, but I have changed most of the hotkeys, my "clear cursor" hotkey clears the blueprint (with recipes) without dropping it into inventory to be deleted later.
Totally awesome, issue resolved.
FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 7:06 pm
How about not being a rude arse?
Please understand this from my perspective.
I make a request that does not alter current gameplay for anyone who chooses to ignore this hotkey, and there is kickback on why it is a bad idea.
Due to (probably my English) there were misunderstandings. This was not a request to alter the way the current pipette works, just add to it, but there was kickback on this because they did not want the current functionality to change. Then there was a misunderstanding about this placing a ghost or the actual item. My intentions are not to alter speed-run efforts or gameplay balance...just fill a gap in the UI. Suggesting a mod to solve any issue in this sub-forum is just a waste of time for people to read it. I would consider that too obvious and if that was what I wanted I would have posted in the mod request forum (or probably just do it myself) but the point of requesting here is to avoid the fact that people must then all download and install the mod just so I can use the UI my way... that is a crazy suggestion.

For example, if someone had argued like this:

Wait, no, we can't possibly add this feature, if we do..... (then what)
Complete that sentence... What harm could this possibly bring another player?
I see no harm to anyone, and therefore think that anyone who is against me getting a feature I would love to have, then THAT person is being the arse, not me.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by robot256 »

Glad what is there will work for you!

TBH, we just witnessed what happens when you *do* add all manner of features to a user interface, without enough explanation to the user. So simply adding fearures is not enough to improve player experience. There has to be thought into how the player will expect things to work and how to teach them the controls. Factorio still has a lot of work to do in this regard. We need more suggestions toward that goal!


BTW, when I suggested to make it a mod feature, and I said "The point of the mod would be to do the deletion for you automatically", I meant that the mod would delete the unwanted blueprint from your inventory without player intervention (before I realized the game does it already). Your reply complained that deleting it would be extra work, which confused me greatly.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by hackamod »

robot256 wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:19 pm
There has to be thought into how the player will expect things to work and how to teach them the controls.
Yes, and I did give it thought. I tried many ways to make a hotkey do what I wanted. TBH this felt very pipette to me. Just a quick grab and go, with no reason to save it for later, 1 time fix for something.
To create a blueprint ("supposedly") and then use it and then clear the cursor without saving it... was not a very intuitive flow .... when I want to end up with no blueprint anywhere, why would I expect the path begins by creating a blueprint and not the eyedropper tool.
robot256 wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:19 pm
Factorio still has a lot of work to do in this regard.
Agreed, but without complaint in any way. This is not a low content game and there are many tools available already. (Even the one I was looking for but really needs a hotkey all its own, but I will survive)

robot256 wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:19 pm
I meant that the mod would delete the unwanted blueprint from your inventory without player intervention (before I realized the game does it already). Your reply complained that deleting it would be extra work, which confused me greatly.
I think people throw the "make a mod" suggestion around too easily in this sub-forum. The problem with a mod is getting people to install your mod just to join your game, or even worse, trying to talk them into shutting down their server, installing a mod for you, and then hosting again. No man...anyone who wants to drive that road would post in the mod request sub-forum, or should anyway... I just want to join a vanilla game and not get into which mod broke what.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by FuryoftheStars »

hackamod wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:03 pm
FuryoftheStars wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 7:06 pm
How about not being a rude arse?
Please understand this from my perspective.
I make a request that does not alter current gameplay for anyone who chooses to ignore this hotkey, and there is kickback on why it is a bad idea.
Due to (probably my English) there were misunderstandings. This was not a request to alter the way the current pipette works, just add to it, but there was kickback on this because they did not want the current functionality to change. Then there was a misunderstanding about this placing a ghost or the actual item. My intentions are not to alter speed-run efforts or gameplay balance...just fill a gap in the UI. Suggesting a mod to solve any issue in this sub-forum is just a waste of time for people to read it. I would consider that too obvious and if that was what I wanted I would have posted in the mod request forum (or probably just do it myself) but the point of requesting here is to avoid the fact that people must then all download and install the mod just so I can use the UI my way... that is a crazy suggestion.

For example, if someone had argued like this:

Wait, no, we can't possibly add this feature, if we do..... (then what)
Complete that sentence... What harm could this possibly bring another player?
I see no harm to anyone, and therefore think that anyone who is against me getting a feature I would love to have, then THAT person is being the arse, not me.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
1) You didn't make the suggestion of an alternate hotkey until your 5th post, roughly half way through the first page.
2) More hotkeys clutter the hotkey interface, especially when it's not needed because your whole reason for not wanting to use the (at the time) known features is you don't want to mess up ctrl+c history. As noted, this is a weak reason for adding more crap into the game.
3) We're all entitled to our opinions. Just because you don't agree with our opinions (as we don't with yours) doesn't mean you can start throwing insults around.

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Re: [0.17] Make Pipette also copy recipe

Post by robot256 »

hackamod wrote: ↑
Mon May 16, 2022 8:39 pm
The problem with a mod is getting people to install your mod just to join your game, or even worse, trying to talk them into shutting down their server, installing a mod for you, and then hosting again.
I feel ya! I don't play on other people's servers much so it's easy to forget that perspective. On the other hand, Factorio makes a big deal about being a platform for mods, and not using them feels like wasting half the game ;) (Also nice username)
No man...anyone who wants to drive that road would post in the mod request sub-forum, or should anyway... I just want to join a vanilla game and not get into which mod broke what.
There are a lot of suggestion threads that might be better answered in the Gameplay Help forum, too. The distinctions really aren't that sharp on this forum, so we try to keep things professional and open-minded everywhere.

I have made some QoL mods myself that wound up with a few hundred users (for example), and could be decent suggestions for the game but it never bothered me enough to ask.

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