Make the laser turret max consumption show the most it can consume

[FuryoftheStars]

Why? I mean it’s very clear: if you produce less than the needed 1.2 MW per Laser, then you’ll brown out. But afterwards it’s accumulator is refilled with more or less the power you can deliver. More power, charge faster. Very simple.

Most electric cars can charge much faster than they can use that charged power. But if you plug it into the socket of the garage it will charge only with the maximum power of that socket. But nobody would come to the idea, that a car has only 3 kW power, if you load it with 3 kW.

The same is it here. IMHO it’s not difficult: accu involved means you have here two devices, one which uses the power, the other which stores it.

What’s surprising is the fact that the accu can be charged faster, than the laser. But is that really a surprise? Or did the player just forget, that the laser needs a lot of accus for crafting?

So or so, the maximum power of an electric car is what it uses while driving, and so the maximum power of a laser is it’s usage while lasering. This is simple. Everything else is an extra information, which can (and should) be added, but should not involve the main use case.

This is not entirely accurate. If you don’t have 9.6 MW of power generation available (per laser that fires), sure, it recharges slower, but it does so at the expense of the rest of your factory.

Yes, accumulators are used in its construction, but this says/means nothing about its energy draw to recharge its buffer.

Again, if I see a tooltip saying “Max Consumption”, I’m going to assume that is its max possible draw.

[Nidan]

what about something like

Shot consumption: 9.6 MW
Extended consumption: 1.22 MW

+1
maybe "Burst" consumption

I like ssilk's car example. And to make it general for all entities, not just lasers:
Operating consumption: 1.22 MW
Recharging consumption: 9.6 MW

[FuryoftheStars]

I like ssilk's car example.

The car example is not accurate. The reason the car is ok with just drawing whatever is available is because there actually things in place to limit the draw, so as not to steal all of the power from everything else (and more technically, not to overload anything and cause breakers to trip or other things to catch fire).

Something like this could probably be achieved in Factorio with a combination of accumulators, power switches, and circuit signals, though again, this requires knowing about it in advanced.

So many other things in this game give you full details of exactly what to expect. Power consumption doesn’t.

[Good_Days13]

Operating consumption: 1.22 MW
Recharging consumption: 9.6 MW

I was thinking of words like this, but I think it implies it only takes that amount of power after the end of a lot of shooting, because it visually looks like it's always firing.

Most electric cars can charge much faster than they can use that charged power. But if you plug it into the socket of the garage it will charge only with the maximum power of that socket. But nobody would come to the idea, that a car has only 3 kW power, if you load it with 3 kW.

it'd be more like it charges slower, but the rest of your house has no power while that's happening

What’s surprising is the fact that the accu can be charged faster, than the laser. But is that really a surprise? Or did the player just forget, that the laser needs a lot of accus for crafting?

Accumulators charge and discharge at 300 kW. you need 4 accumulators to match 1.2 MW, so I'd think I'd only need 4 or less. but with the 9.6 MW number, you really need 32 to match it.
And I'd think of it needing accumulators to craft it as theming or even imply I don't need accumulators cause I just made some to craft it.
And you don't even need accumulators. People here are acting like accumulators are some magic thing that makes it work somehow. But really, having 11 engines is enough watts, just like 32 accumulators. If it took the amount it said, you'd only need 2 engines and no accumulators

[ssilk]

it'd be more like it charges slower, but the rest of your house has no power while that's happening

Ok, when that’s happening in real life, what does that mean? I will tell you: the power plants are producing too less energy. Their normal strategy in that case is to shut of parts of their network. Power outages. Why do you mean that’s not needed in Factorio? There is the power switch exactly for that.

Well, you can see it also from this side: the built in laser-accumulator prevents your factory from browning out during a fight. Or in other words: it shifts the unavoidable a bit into the future.
Because that’s the reason of the brownout: you’re producing too less power and not because of the accumulators in the lasers, but because the lasers need much more power than you might think. That’s the reason why the laser-accumulators empty.

Because if I you would produce enough energy, the accus wouldn’t discharge while firing. And you would not need the 9.6 MW power of the laser-accumulator charging, but just the 1.2 MW of the laser. so seen 9.6 MW is a useless number, only relevant for the first charge.

TL;DR: It doesn’t matter how fast the lasers accumulators can be charged, it’s obviously too less power available to keep them charged while firing.

What’s surprising is the fact that the accu can be charged faster, than the laser. But is that really a surprise? Or did the player just forget, that the laser needs a lot of accus for crafting?

Accumulators charge and discharge at 300 kW. you need 4 accumulators to match 1.2 MW, so I'd think I'd only need 4 or less. but with the 9.6 MW number, you really need 32 to match it.

There are two errors in this thinking.

First, if you use accumulator, you shift the brownout just a bit more into the future. Because what’s the difference between 1.2 MW for the laser or 1.2 MW for the accumulators? If your factory doesn’t deliver this 1.2 MW per laser the accumulators empty and after some time they cannot deliver anymore and then we come to the same scenario as above.

Second: nice if you need only one laser, but I need many. So let’s say I have 100 lasers, then I need — from your calculation — 400 accumulators which need - uhhh - 120 MW to charge.

Hm.

But really, having 11 engines is enough watts, just like 32 accumulators. If it took the amount it said, you'd only need 2 engines and no accumulators

But as shown above you only need 2 engines to power a laser. And you can build 11 to charge the built-in accumulator in — I don’t know — 0.1 seconds for the first charge after placing it.


Edit: after writing that I thought a bit more and I think now I understand. Because this problem arises only if you have a small factory. Let’s say 10 lasers and 30 steam engines, which are under normal circumstances are enough to keep all powered but under attack this will lead soon to brownouts.

That’s unavoidable. Because the effort to build 100 steam-engines is in no proportion to the usage. What you can do is building 10 or 20 engines more, store the hot water in tanks so that the unavoidable brownout is as short as possible.

In bigger factories this evens out much more. And when you have accumulators this effect evens out even more.

But I don’t understand: what would it change in any of these strategies, if I would know that lasers charge faster than they use energy.

[Good_Days13]

Well, you can see it also from this side: the built in laser-accumulator prevents your factory from browning out during a fight. Or in other words: it shifts the unavoidable a bit into the future.
Because that’s the reason of the brownout: you’re producing too less power and not because of the accumulators in the lasers, but because the lasers need much more power than you might think. That’s the reason why the laser-accumulators empty.

i don't really know what you mean by "laser-accumulator" they don't have an accumulator in them. all things have an energy storage, but lasers instantly use it all up because they take joules instead of watts.

Accumulators charge and discharge at 300 kW. you need 4 accumulators to match 1.2 MW, so I'd think I'd only need 4 or less. but with the 9.6 MW number, you really need 32 to match it.

There are two errors in this thinking.

First, if you use accumulator, you shift the brownout just a bit more into the future. Because what’s the difference between 1.2 MW for the laser or 1.2 MW for the accumulators? If your factory doesn’t deliver this 1.2 MW per laser the accumulators empty and after some time they cannot deliver anymore and then we come to the same scenario as above.

idk what you mean by brownout in this situation, but if you have 2 engines, that's more than 1.2 MW, and then you can have accumulators if you want, but why would you need them? but since it takes 9.6 MW, you need at least 26 extra accumulators if you're gonna use accumulators. the numbers I gave above also were just saying how many accumulators match up to 9.6 MW vs 1.2 just to put it in perspective, so your comment was not really relevant.

Second: nice if you need only one laser, but I need many. So let’s say I have 100 lasers, then I need — from your calculation — 400 accumulators which need - uhhh - 120 MW to charge.

you'd rarely have 100 turrets firing at once, but you'd need 136 engines to get enough watts to equal the average firing watts, but if a lot of them were firing at a matching frequency, it would get above the amount you're providing and at the very worst, you'd need 2792 extra accumulators. probably a tenth of them would be recharging at the same time though, so you might not need any accumulators because it'd be covered by the engines if you're lucky.

But as shown above you only need 2 engines to power a laser. And you can build 11 to charge the built-in accumulator in — I don’t know — 0.1 seconds for the first charge after placing it.

2 engines is not enough to power a laser turret, idk where you see it "shown above." but it says "1.22 MW" and 2 engines gives 1.8 MW so i'd assume that i have enough power, but your factory would flash cause it is actually taking 9.6 MW then stopping when it's full. you can test this yourself. just place 2 engines and connect it to a laser then also connect it to a light or radar or something.

it really feels like people are saying "magic thing solve thing. why? just cause"

[ssilk]

Well, you can see it also from this side: the built in laser-accumulator prevents your factory from browning out during a fight. Or in other words: it shifts the unavoidable a bit into the future.
Because that’s the reason of the brownout: you’re producing too less power and not because of the accumulators in the lasers, but because the lasers need much more power than you might think. That’s the reason why the laser-accumulators empty.

i don't really know what you mean by "laser-accumulator" they don't have an accumulator in them. all things have an energy storage, but lasers instantly use it all up because they take joules instead of watts.

I choose that wording to make clear what I meant and now it confuses even more. I mean the built-in energy storage of the lasers, the batteries that are used when building a laser. Technically (software implementation) the laser is two devices. The laser and the accumulator. Energy is feed into the accu and the laser sucks from it. Quite similar to an electric car.

(And it doesn’t matter if the car uses joules or watts per second, both make the motor spin in the same direction, and sorry for abbreviations, but every energy usage in Factorio is counted in watt per second.)

you'd rarely have 100 turrets firing at once

Of course I have.

but you'd need 136 engines to get enough watts to equal the average firing watts, but if a lot of them were firing at a matching frequency, it would get above the amount you're providing and at the very worst,

Ah I think we are coming to the point.

As I understood it, the lasers use 1.2 MW per second if they fire. They don’t use that power at once. So there is no frequency. Either on or off. Am I right?

If so, then if all lasers fire they are using that much power per second continuously. And the accu is continuously loaded. And if there is not enough power to provide that need, the accu goes empty.

2 engines is not enough to power a laser turret, idk where you see it "shown above." but it says "1.22 MW" and 2 engines gives 1.8 MW so i'd assume that i have enough power, but your factory would flash cause it is actually taking 9.6 MW then stopping when it's full. you can test this yourself. just place 2 engines and connect it to a laser then also connect it to a light or radar or something.

Hm. I admit I never had a deep look into that. I always built it so, that it will never have problems

Ok, let’s assume I’m wrong with the idea that the laser use continuously power and that they use instead the power of the accu at the begin of the shot (which makes much sense CPU-wise).

If the lasers use 1.2 MW and the wiki says a shot is 1.5 seconds, then they are using 1.8 MJ per shot. If that is taken from the built-in accus at the beginning of the shot — again not as I have assumed till now that it is taken continuously — then this could lead indeed to this problem, that if — let’s say — 10 lasers fire nearly at once, that the factory immediately browns out. But only for a short moment. About that 1.5 seconds. And that’s what you want. You want to give lasers a higher priority. That’s the reason why they have the built-in accus that they can refill, while the laser is shooting.


And to come back to the subject: no I don’t want to see “shoot consumption” nor “extended consumption” or anything like that. I want to see both devices (the laser and the built-in accus) with their numbers and no strange interpretation of what those numbers means, because it makes things not better.

[jodokus31]

First, if you use accumulator, you shift the brownout just a bit more into the future. Because what’s the difference between 1.2 MW for the laser or 1.2 MW for the accumulators? If your factory doesn’t deliver this 1.2 MW per laser the accumulators empty and after some time they cannot deliver anymore and then we come to the same scenario as above.

I would say the difference is, that regular accumulators have a lower recharge prio. So, while the lasers are shooting, you have additional 1,2 MW of power from accus, and while the steam engines are at max., the accus are not charged. That is better than nothing, but too little for actual burst of 9,6 MW for short intervals.
Also, I thought the 1.2 MW max. consumption means, that it does not consume more on average, while flashing from drain consumption to 9,6 MW max., so, theoretically, you should not brownout, but the problem is that the steam engines produce constantly only 1,8 MW at max., you don't have any burst capacity. The 4 accus also won't cut it, you only have 3 MW (1.8 MW from engines + 1,2 MW from accus) at max.

It think, the accus help to even out in the whole factory, if you assume, that not all lasers are shooting at the same time.
- You need a burst power capacity for a fraction of lasers which are shooting (9.6MW each) + the normal consumption of the factory.
- And you need a constant power capacity for shooting lasers of (1.2MW each) + the normal consumption of the factory.

An example:
100 lasers, max. 10 are shooting simultaneously (24kw drain for each laser means 2,4MW )
The normal consumption of the factory 50MW

So you need burst capacity of:
10 * 9.6MW + 2.4MW + 50MW = 148.4 MW

And constant capacity of:
10 * 1.22MW + 2.4MW + 50MW = 64.6 MW

So, you need 64,6 MW of steam engines + 83,8 MW of additional capacity, which would be ~280 accumulators.

That looks quite rough, is that really correct? The premise is of course, that the factory is not impacted in any form. If you allow the factory to slow down for some seconds, while lasers recover, the problem is not that big.

[Good_Days13]

i don't really know what you mean by "laser-accumulator" they don't have an accumulator in them. all things have an energy storage, but lasers instantly use it all up because they take joules instead of watts.

I choose that wording to make clear what I meant and now it confuses even more. I mean the built-in energy storage of the lasers, the batteries that are used when building a laser. Technically (software implementation) the laser is two devices. The laser and the accumulator. Energy is feed into the accu and the laser sucks from it. Quite similar to an electric car.

it's not really because batteries are used in the recipe. all things have a buffer. but the laser doesn't really "suck" from the buffer, if "suck" means take from it at a certain watt amount

(And it doesn’t matter if the car uses joules or watts per second, both make the motor spin in the same direction, and sorry for abbreviations, but every energy usage in Factorio is counted in watt per second.)

you cant say watts per second because watts are joules per second. watts per second would be like saying joules per second per second.

but you'd need 136 engines to get enough watts to equal the average firing watts, but if a lot of them were firing at a matching frequency, it would get above the amount you're providing and at the very worst,

Ah I think we are coming to the point.

As I understood it, the lasers use 1.2 MW per second if they fire. They don’t use that power at once. So there is no frequency. Either on or off. Am I right?

If so, then if all lasers fire they are using that much power per second continuously. And the accu is continuously loaded. And if there is not enough power to provide that need, the accu goes empty.

the lasers don't continuously use power. and they don't use 1.2 watts per second. they empty their buffer of 800kJ and then it refills at 9.6 MW until it has 800 kJ again so it can fire again.

Hm. I admit I never had a deep look into that. I always built it so, that it will never have problems

I like to build things the right amount so I wont have a problem. the problem is the laser doesn't give the right numbers, so I have a problem anyway

Ok, let’s assume I’m wrong with the idea that the laser use continuously power and that they use instead the power of the accu at the begin of the shot (which makes much sense CPU-wise).

If the lasers use 1.2 MW and the wiki says a shot is 1.5 seconds, then they are using 1.8 MJ per shot. If that is taken from the built-in accus at the beginning of the shot — again not as I have assumed till now that it is taken continuously — then this could lead indeed to this problem, that if — let’s say — 10 lasers fire nearly at once, that the factory immediately browns out. But only for a short moment. About that 1.5 seconds. And that’s what you want. You want to give lasers a higher priority. That’s the reason why they have the built-in accus that they can refill, while the laser is shooting.

lasers take 800 kJ per shot, not 1.8 MJ. i think you got that number from a misunderstanding. it shoots at 1.5 shots per second, not 1.5 seconds per shot. idk why you would've thought it takes energy continuously. you can see the electricity graph looking like a square wave whenever it's firing.
idk what you mean by "give lasers a higher priority,"

And to come back to the subject: no I don’t want to see “shoot consumption” nor “extended consumption” or anything like that. I want to see both devices (the laser and the built-in accus) with their numbers and no strange interpretation of what those numbers means, because it makes things not better.

we could also just make the "Max. consumption" say 9.6 MW as I said, it is more accurate because it is what it regularly consumes at max when it's firing. but as I said, the number is nowhere in game. you can get the other number easily, as I also said.

[Good_Days13]

why don't we instead just change the way the laser turret operates? this whole time we've been acting like the way it was first coded is permanent, but why not just change it? they could find some way to change the buffer refill rate. that might be hard, so instead of that, it could take watts instead of joules. just have it constantly consuming while firing.

[Good_Days13]

This is the laser being powered by 2 engines and 27 accumulators. it gives 9.9 MW, which is enough for the laser if you know it spikes to 9.6 MW when refilling the buffer after the laser empties it - which it does every shot - and extra watts for the light. The laser fills it buffer, but it takes energy directly from it every time it fires, (not save it for later or save from a brownout) because it uses joules when firing. 2 engines are enough to power it, but the accumulators are still needed because it pulls 9.6 MW between each shot.

You don't even really need accumulators, they are just used so you don't have to make more pollution with engines. If you had 11 engines, that'd cover a laser turret firing forever just fine.
rip epilepsy users

[Good_Days13]

hmmm...

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[Good_Days13]

By the way, this seems to still be an issue.

Screenshot_20231008_135703.png (4.61 KiB) Viewed 772 times

Screenshot_20231008_135911.png (17.98 KiB) Viewed 772 times