Well, Fulgora sucks [Spoilers]

[BlueTemplar]

I kind of like the «lost scrap robot civilization slowly waking up idea».

The «defeat automated outposts» idea is probably easier to implement though...
I think there's a RedMew scenario like this already ?

Elevated rails would be unlocked on Fulgora as a trigger technology.

What kind of trigger ?
The Production science requirement is fine as it is :
after all, on default settings, you can still easily get back to space (or get enough productivity science) from even the measly scrap of a single large island...
(And if not, and you got unlucky for instance, or deliberately are playing with scarce resources, well, you still have the option of the semi-automated car cargo transportation.)

[...] automated transport is already locked behind Fulgora science (+ Vulcanus)

No, it isn't.

In the early stage of Fulgora expansion, you would have to use solar panels to generate electricity.

Bad idea if you mean 'mostly', the fact that they suck so much there is what makes Fulgora different from other planets.
Also, thawing ice + burning solid fuel from scrap / solid fuel from heavy oil ocean is still an option.
I guess a good balance of all 3 is needed for early on ?

The Lightning rod (or collector later) is the only way to make power on Fulgora (Other than importing ice/uranium/fluoroketone from space). Making them consume power would make Fulgora unable to produce power on its own.

No, it isn't.

Accumulators would not be able to be placed on Fulgora, due to the extreme magnetic field. Instead, you have to make accumulators with EM insulation. This EM insulation would be quite expensive, stopping you from spamming accumulators everywhere. It can also only be made on Fulgora. This also encourages you to use accumulators of higher quality, as it would be less expensive than an equivalent amount of lower quality accumulators.

Interesting idea of banning low quality accumulators, though maybe it could be on a quality curve instead, low quality ones just being very bad at it ?
(Sadly, one problem with this is how Quality is a game option that can be disabled...)

If you make something more expensive in Factorio, you just build more miners/chemical plants/assembling machines or anything else to produce more of it.

Or you find better options.

[Dixi]

I think main base should be on Nauvis, and Fulgora suit perfectly as a "side planet". No complains at all. It's much more complicated, compared to Vulcanus, and it is a nice place to conquer as 3rd planet. Because Gleba is worst nightmare. No idea about last frozen planet yet.

[Mango]

Sorry I was a little hasty and triggered by the self-confidence of the post.

The player would be able to walk on the oil "oceans", but automated transport would be barred from crossing these oceans by a technology unlocked on fulgora - the new elevated rails research. It would be a trigger technology.

[...] automated transport is already locked behind Fulgora science (+ Vulcanus)

No, it isn't.

I ment to highlight that the new elevated rails research is locked - the one you need for deep oil.
I made a mistake here, sorry.

The Lightning rod (or collector later) is the only way to make power on Fulgora (Other than importing ice/uranium/fluoroketone from space). Making them consume power would make Fulgora unable to produce power on its own.

No, it isn't.

Ok, I didn't try to survive on ice from scrap, but I have a shortage even when making just holmium, light fuel and sulfuric acid.

If you make something more expensive in Factorio, you just build more miners/chemical plants/assembling machines or anything else to produce more of it.

Or you find better options.

Yeah my argument was weak here. I actually think acummulators are in a good balance here, because space is a big enemy on Fulgora.

[BlueTemplar]

Ok, I didn't try to survive on ice from scrap, but I have a shortage even when making just holmium, light fuel and sulfuric acid.

Interesting, right now I don't even know what to do with all the ice, can't even upgrade it's quality, and it would be pointless anyway... (but so would using its water for power)
(I never needed to set up sulfuric acid in the first place.)

[BraveCaperCat]

I don't personally think Fulgora needs to change, but I do find it a bit monotonous. Here's an idea: Instead of having any kind of mobile/expanding enemy (like Nauvis and Gleba), what if certain islands had ancient emplacements of tesla turrets and other defenses? These would be challenges that you have to find ways to defeat in order to claim their resources. (Maybe they could be guarding a second variety of scrap with a different mix of outputs.) You’d be able to collect a few tesla turrets and maybe other advanced items before you researched them (if you manage to cut off their power instead of destroying them), and it would provide the experience of attacking a base that’s built of separate buildings like you build, which doesn’t otherwise happen in single-player games.

I think I might expand your idea then make a mod about it. Having to defeat another enemy with everything that you could possibly unlock would be AWESOME!

[Mango]

Ok, I didn't try to survive on ice from scrap, but I have a shortage even when making just holmium, light fuel and sulfuric acid.

Interesting, right now I don't even know what to do with all the ice, can't even upgrade it's quality, and it would be pointless anyway... (but so would using its water for power)
(I never needed to set up sulfuric acid in the first place.)

I use it to upgrade quality of processing units and batteries.

[adam_bise]

There is hardly a challenge. The entire puzzle is solved with 4 items. Would be way much more interesting with enemies to deal with as well.

[BraveCaperCat]

There is hardly a challenge. The entire puzzle is solved with 4 items. Would be way much more interesting with enemies to deal with as well.

Note: The enemies described below would start on Nauvis then follow you to other planets, such as Fulgora.

I don't personally think Fulgora needs to change, but I do find it a bit monotonous. Here's an idea: Instead of having any kind of mobile/expanding enemy (like Nauvis and Gleba), what if certain islands had ancient emplacements of tesla turrets and other defenses? These would be challenges that you have to find ways to defeat in order to claim their resources. (Maybe they could be guarding a second variety of scrap with a different mix of outputs.) You’d be able to collect a few tesla turrets and maybe other advanced items before you researched them (if you manage to cut off their power instead of destroying them), and it would provide the experience of attacking a base that’s built of separate buildings like you build, which doesn’t otherwise happen in single-player games.

I think I might expand your idea then make a mod about it. Having to defeat another enemy with everything that you could possibly unlock would be AWESOME!

[MisterDoctor]

It's not just the lack of enemies but that is a part of it. No enemies means no real incentive to "conquer" the planet. But also, the scrap and oil are too plentiful and you have almost all resources right away, including end products. You immediately are overflowing with blue circuits and L.D.S. and can easily make rocket fuel. There is little to no challenge there, no reason to explore or expand, there is so little going on at all. The lightning mechanic is not particularly interesting either; you just put up some lightning rods and are given free power, nothing to really think about.

With Gleba I had to read and understand each of 20+ recipes to really get a feel for the overall system and slowly build a up a complex base that slowly became more and more self-sufficient while dealing with the wildlife and wondering if I could even survive. That was a great experience.

With Fulgora... there is so little going on at all. I sort some scrap, build the rocket, so I am never stranded. There is 10s of millions of scrap right away so you never have to explore or expand. There is infinite heavy oil literally everywhere. And there are only like 5 recipes that do nothing but create a random intermediate product for the next recipe. It is IMO very unfinished.

Some ideas to improve it: scrap and heavy oil should not be so plentiful. There needs to be a reason to explore and to find things that I need and want. Lightning should be a little more dangerous somehow but not sure how. Maybe lightning rods should not be 100% effective or something. Maybe if there were enemies, they don't directly attack you but rather interfere with your lightning rods somehow. Possibly there should be more than one kind of scrap (metallic scrap, rocky scrap, plastic scrap? electronics scrap?). Possibly it should not be possible to get all products from scrap right away but rather you have to research scrap extraction techs or something so that you have to progress in your ability to process scrap.

(Strangely they seem to have forgone the Factorio 'formula' in general. All of the new planets have at their core a similar theme of: what if we made it really hard for the player to build, and what if we gave them nearly infinite resources of limited type? On Gleba this was ok, because swamp is overcome with landfill, cliffs can be built around, and infinite food products is countered by the fact that they require a ton of processing and are also attacked by enemies. Also the infinite resources have to be farmed in very specific places and are not located literally everywhere, so the map structure matters in how to go about designing your base.

On Vulcanus this made things a bit boring, having infinite lava and so infinite metalic products, limited only by your ability to get tungsten to make more foundries. Which is not particularly hard and once you know how to kill a small demolisher becomes even easier. You also have basically infinite sulphuric acid and with acid neutralization nearly infinite water and infinite power. Boring.

On Fulgora... you just have infinite resources with almost no processing. There is the odd thing that is hard to get like coal. It being hard to build yet again is just frustrating but not really challenging in a good way. Maybe the islandy nature of the map needs to be amplified a bit more. I had nearly a continent-sized island right next to my starting island so space was not an issue. But making it hard to build is not a great mechanic anyway. There should be resources on the planet to discover and we should have to go looking for them and bring them back to our base, which is the Factorio concept, isn't it? Why is there infinite resources everywhere??? Who thinks "infinite resources everywhere" is a good mechanic?)

[BlueTemplar]

But then you could say (and you do) that Vulcanus is super easy too... and some people are already calling Gleba way too hard !

With Gleba I had to read and understand each of 20+ recipes to really get a feel for the overall system and slowly build a up a complex base that slowly became more and more self-sufficient while dealing with the wildlife and wondering if I could even survive. That was a great experience.

My own first impression of Gleba (as planet 4), now that I successfully built a silo and lifted off from there,

is that in some ways enemies are easier to deal with there than on Nauvis, which now reading the relevant FFFs makes sense.

Fulgora (and Gleba a little bit) also has the extra difficulty of getting resupplied, with worse space solar power, much worse in the case of Fulgora.

There is hardly a challenge. The entire puzzle is solved with 4 items. Would be way much more interesting with enemies to deal with as well.

I might feel differently in subsequent games... (but then mods will provide )

There is 10s of millions of scrap right away so you never have to explore or expand.

But only on those tiny islands that you can't build a proper factory on !
And also scrap is specifically NOT infinite. (Heavy oil is.) I guess the amounts could be tweaked ?
(But then I consider default game settings ores already ~8 times too plentiful, I tend to play on 50%/50%/50% Frequency / Size / Richness, except this time when I went with (DeathWorld) Marathon instead, not realizing that Marathon is now only a x4 cost, rather than the usual ~x8, expensive recipes having been removed. But then I seem to have ended up with just the right amount of difficulty for a first SA game, which I'm glad for. )

Possibly there should be more than one kind of scrap (metallic scrap, rocky scrap, plastic scrap? electronics scrap?).

But this would make the scrap sorting challenge much easier to deal with...
(Also I'm pretty sure you're currently incentivized to centralize your best quality modules on just a few drills and recyclers ?)

Possibly it should not be possible to get all products from scrap right away but rather you have to research scrap extraction techs or something so that you have to progress in your ability to process scrap.

Ok, this seems fairer
(I guess you would just get more scrap as an output instead ?)
also adding a difficulty increase in progression, thus allowing to make the early Fulgora game harder ?

Ok, I didn't try to survive on ice from scrap, but I have a shortage even when making just holmium, light fuel and sulfuric acid.

Interesting, right now I don't even know what to do with all the ice, can't even upgrade it's quality, and it would be pointless anyway... (but so would using its water for power)
(I never needed to set up sulfuric acid in the first place.)

I use it to upgrade quality of processing units and batteries.

Ah, of course, since sulfuric acid isn't returned for those, I didn't think of that, thanks !
(I don't upgrade blue chips, and plain batteries get used for science.)

Note: The enemies described below would start on Nauvis then follow you to other planets, such as Fulgora.

Ok, now that doesn't make sense, whether gameplay- or story- wise ?
Consider how on Gleba enemies start stronger than on Nauvis : if the enemy scrapbot civilization only starts on Fulgora after you wake them up from your slumber (which might happen quite after some time you landed there), you can make them much stronger and interesting off the bat !

[adam_bise]

Put it this way. There is free electricity with lightning rods which also negates all possible damage, so no repair packs or bot coverage.

Plop down like 50 accus and you will be getting Giga-Watts of power on lightning strikes

, so free electricity AND unlimited electricity AND no need for defense or repairs. To make matters worse, you can't easily expand roboports due to the terrain, so you probably wont even bother with them. Which means even less things to worry about.

There is no pollution and no reason to avoid waste. Scrap fields are in the 20 million capacity range right off the bat, and you get blue chips and LDS straight out of the drills (almost).

So then if you want you could plop down some drills, filter everything except blue chips, and send everything else to circular recyclers.

. As you have free and unlimited power with no pollution.

Or sort everything on a larger island with filter splitters with output de-prioritized splitters in between taking the overflow to circular recyclers

. Bam, whole puzzle solved.

The rest is just finding out which angle elevated rails will let you go to the next island, and rebuilding supply assemblers, and other activities you have already done up to this point.

Oh, and if you are playing death world, then congrats you have increased the enemies by 0 * n%

[BlueTemplar]

Yeah, I guess that I just hate waste and I'm too used to having to be very careful about pollution, so will not just

waste-loop excess stuff to nothing as a matter of principle

.
I did find a use for roboports for

filtering out quality items from scrap, which would otherwise be too tedious to set up with belts.

[MisterDoctor]

There is 10s of millions of scrap right away so you never have to explore or expand.

scrap is specifically NOT infinite

it is "effectively" infinite. it comes in patches of 24+ million at a time with patches all over the place. this means there is no reason to explore since there is nothing more to find. on Nauvis I never stop wondering what is beyond the edge of the fog of war. there could be a juicy iron/copper/stone/oil/coal deposit just waiting to be found. on Fulgora I know what I will find. I will find more islands that are pretty much the same as the islands I already found. and they will contain 10s of millions of more scrap just like I already found 12+ times. (I guess another problem is the same-ness of the map generation. there are ruin islands, barren islands, and smaller scrap deposit islands, and that's all there is; and all you need for your base is one large barren island and one scrap deposit island. if you want to have huge throughput, ok maybe you need a few scrap islands and a bit more space, but it's not very complicated or interesting.)

right off the bat, get rid of offshore pump giving infinite heavy oil literally everywhere and replace them with heavy oil geysers and already that will be an improvement since you will need to find and ship heavy oil. (as long as it still isn't literally everywhere.) maybe make it something more interesting, like sludge, that needs more processing, but then someone needs to decide what sludge gets processed into.

something similar for scrap. ideally split into different kinds so that I don't find one deposit and am done. make it few and far between, make it less rich, and make it varied. (ex: this time I had tons of electronics scrap and very little rubble scrap so I didn't have a lot of concrete at first and had to go look for rubble. I found a large rubble deposit way to the NW and had to build a long railway to ship it to my base. meanwhile the sludge I found nearby was only a small deposit and will run out soon so I need to go look for more sludge. that kind of thing.)

[BlueTemplar]

Nauvis on default settings has very similar issues though : patches after the starting one are already million-sized and as you keep exploring it's all «more of the same» (with albeit more variety thanks to the different resources and biomes - but then it's your primary planet, unlike Fulgora — it's fair for secondary planets to be less varied).
Crude oil patches on Nauvis are actually infinite, though their throughput falls off, but not enough to make even behemoth biters not trivial with flame turrets.

I do like the idea of harder to get heavy oil... maybe it could be so much intermingled with sand on the shores (or polluted ??) that you could only exploit it by mining finite deposits of frozen oil sludge with drills ?
(Maybe you would not be able to place drills directly on top of deposits, and have to use landfill to place them nearby, then exploit electric & big drill's extra range to overlap the deposits ? Think a bit like dangOreus, but less extreme ?)

I already said why splitting scrap seemed like a bad idea to me.

[MisterDoctor]

patches after the starting one are already million-sized

low single digits millions, maybe, but still you have to find them and ship them and they are far from your starting area. but also these are low-tier resources that you DO need millions of and can still run out. these are not scrap that give you overflowing blue chips and LDS immediately. I do not think "oh, 3.4 million iron, that's all the iron I will ever need" I am still happy to find a 9 million patch that is 3x further away.

on Fulgora I have 24M, 25M, 23M, 18M, 9.5M, 19M, 14M, 9M, 9.8M patches in walking distance from my starting spot. and that's all the same one resource that is the only resource to find.

and as you keep exploring it's all «more of the same»

it isn't though? sometimes I barely find any iron for example and I have to keep looking and finally I might find a good patch far to the north surrounded by huge biter nests. now I have to figure out how to secure that iron and get it to my base. and then there is the landscape being so much more interesting, with water, cliffs, and large concentrations of enemy nests, all making a "maze" of sorts that you have to figure out how to traverse. on Fulgora, the map generator does not seem to like the island idea very much and you get a very regular boring pattern of islands, and it does not vary much even if you use the sliders.

Crude oil patches on Nauvis are actually infinite, though their throughput falls off, but not enough to make even behemoth biters not trivial with flame turrets.

the point is whether I want to go find more oil patches or not, and whether I am happy to find a 4000% patch when all I had so far was a 1700% patch that has already fallen to 1150%. there should be incentive to explore and you should be happy to find new resource patches. (and the better patches should be further from the starting area.)

But this would make the scrap sorting challenge much easier to deal with...

what challenge?

there are 12 things to find in scrap currently. 12 filter splitters, done. add a few more if you feed some of the output back into the loop.

[Andrius319]

I dont think that big scrap patches are that good really. The other day i was thinking about scaling up, how it would look like, what works, ratios etc. And, you know, scrap is really weak. I mean scrap gives 3% chance a red circuit, which in other words means that you need 33 belts of scrap to get 1 belt of red circuits. Of course you can get some scrapping productivity and other item recycling into red circuits albeit inefficiently. Lets say you get that one belt of red circuits, congratulations, its still not impressive. On other planets red circuit costs like 2 iron 5 copper, even less with productivity, which goes down to like 2 belts of ore to get one belt of red circuits.

After all that it kinda killed motivation to build big in fulgura even thou i really like the planet and music. Decided to export superconductors to nauvis and craft quality modules there, especially since superconductors can be shipped in large quantities by a rocket.

[BlueTemplar]

But this would make the scrap sorting challenge much easier to deal with...

what challenge?

there are 12 things to find in scrap currently. 12 filter splitters, done. add a few more if you feed some of the output back into the loop.

The challenge is, because they all come from the same source, to not have any of them back up and stop the rest of the production (of course if you waste-recycle-loop, this is trivial, but we've already been over this...)

[BraveCaperCat]

There seems to have been a mod for Fulgora enemies since the release of Space Age...

[BlueTemplar]

When hit by a lightning, units are temporaly boosted in speed and damage
When a spawner is hit by a lightning, it boosts neaby units

Nice.

[MisterDoctor]

But this would make the scrap sorting challenge much easier to deal with...

what challenge?

there are 12 things to find in scrap currently. 12 filter splitters, done. add a few more if you feed some of the output back into the loop.

The challenge is, because they all come from the same source, to not have any of them back up and stop the rest of the production (of course if you waste-recycle-loop, this is trivial, but we've already been over this...)

I don't know what to say here, is it a challenge or is it trivial? you are saying it's trivial, if you use the tools you are given. you are saying it's a challenge only if you ignore the tools you are given. so... it is then trivial if we are looking at the whole picture. anything is challenging if you remove enough of the tools that you have to deal with the problems.