We support Ukraine

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enterisys
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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

gGeorg wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:58 pm
Ukraina army shoot cluster bombs at Donetsk City center, no military targets around, only russian civilans.

Warning - following link is live report of real situation. Contains injured and dead people on streets.
https://odysee.com/@PatrickLancasternew ... uster-bomb
Stop spreading fakes (it's a ballistic rocket not a cluster bomb btw).
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Clearly it flew from SE to NW - from russian army side to Ukrainian army.
I can only guess why russians want to bomb their city, maybe to instil fear into Donetsk citizens and mobilize more troops?
Or maybe it was russians who bombed Donetsk these 8 years all along?

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by gGeorg »

enterisys wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:34 pm
gGeorg wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:58 pm
Ukraina army shoot cluster bombs at Donetsk City center, no military targets around, only russian civilans.

Warning - following link is live report of real situation. Contains injured and dead people on streets.
https://odysee.com/@PatrickLancasternew ... uster-bomb
Stop spreading fakes (it's a ballistic rocket not a cluster bomb btw).

I can only guess why russians want to bomb their city, maybe to instil fear into Donetsk citizens and mobilize more troops?
Or maybe it was russians who bombed Donetsk these 8 years all along?
It is a rocket, filled with a cluster ammuniition. It is created for kill soft targets. I appology for not precisely name the type of ammo.
There is another video,
https://odysee.com/@PatrickLancasternew ... ers-entire
same jurno talk with random Russians on a street. They say, Ukrainci shoot explosive shells for 8 years on our houses.
There is also a child 8 yrs old who live in a basement all live, becouse of bombs.
My knowledge of russian language is limited, perhaps you could translate it preciely.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

gGeorg wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:51 pm
enterisys wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 2:34 pm
gGeorg wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 1:58 pm
Ukraina army shoot cluster bombs at Donetsk City center, no military targets around, only russian civilans.

Warning - following link is live report of real situation. Contains injured and dead people on streets.
https://odysee.com/@PatrickLancasternew ... uster-bomb
Stop spreading fakes (it's a ballistic rocket not a cluster bomb btw).

I can only guess why russians want to bomb their city, maybe to instil fear into Donetsk citizens and mobilize more troops?
Or maybe it was russians who bombed Donetsk these 8 years all along?
It is a rocket, filled with a cluster ammuniition. It is created for kill soft targets. I appology for not precisely name the type of ammo.
There is another video,
https://odysee.com/@PatrickLancasternew ... ers-entire
same jurno talk with random Russians on a street. They say, Ukrainci shoot explosive shells for 8 years on our houses.
There is also a child 8 yrs old who live in a basement all live, becouse of bombs.
My knowledge of russian language is limited, perhaps you could translate it preciely.
Stop changing subjects. Do you agree that your resource is fake and that its russians who bombed Donetsk then? If not provide proof.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

And silence means another russian troll sent to gulag boys.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by jodokus31 »

makrom wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:37 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:00 pm
I would say, "russian aggression" is a self promising term. If you constantly call someone evil and treat him like that, he will become like it. I can remember, that all evil persons in movies always had russian accents, esp. in american movies.
I mean, I have hardly any excuses for the current behaviour, other that they are now presented even more evil, than they really are. But that's my impression.
I'm talking about the fact that Russia has always been a threat to Eastern European countries. Just try to answer this, what would stop them from coming up with some ridiculous reason to invade the Baltics? Just relying that Russia would never attack a democratic neighbour? I guess they should just take your word then. After all, they are totally interested in non-hostile relations. I mean if Austria would consider to join Nato, we would all understand if Switzerland would invade them and bomb their cities, wouldn't we?
That's the dilemma. Russia sees countries freely enter NATO, but for them its a threat, obviously. What is the assurance for Russia, that USA in shape of NATO will not attack? Even if NATO never has the intention to do it, it's still a threat for them
USA has certain fear, that Russia could compete in preeminence in the world according to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHn0IVqDGOA
Seems, that the strategy worked...
makrom wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:37 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:00 pm
You sound like a better species, but we are all humans, no difference. Maybe this attitude is the main problem?
While I'm fully aware that I shamefully share the species with Putin, I definitely consider myself a way better human being. But it's completely absurd to think that's the problem. From my point of view, the main problem isn't even Putin, but countries of the developed world who maintain trade relations with despotic regimes, enabling these to project their oppression.
While I'm terrible sorry for the people of Ukraine what Russia is doing to them, the silver lining is that there is no possible outcome how Russia won't be significantly weakened. There even are signs they want to try building up a self reliant economy or increase dependencies on China.
It's a problem, if people think, they are better than others. Honestly, it's one of the main problems of humanity.
Russia got weakened massively, as well as europe. But Russia will turn to east now with economic relations, i presume. China produces the most goods on the world anyway. But, I guess there is a lot more to be considered.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:49 pm
That's the dilemma. Russia sees countries freely enter NATO, but for them its a threat, obviously. What is the assurance for Russia, that USA in shape of NATO will not attack? Even if NATO never has the intention to do it, it's still a threat for them
USA has certain fear, that Russia could compete in preeminence in the world according to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHn0IVqDGOA
Seems, that the strategy worked...
Take a look 1 year back. How often did russia appear in your tv or other independent news?
I can bet that no one was discussing it because its just that insignificant. (as an example EU GDP 30% of world, 550mln people; ru GDP 2%, 140mln)
The same happened in USA tv/news.
How can something be seen as threat on one side, while the other side just doesn't care about you?
Clearly one side is misinformed.
Seeing the "success" of russian army on 27th day of "3 day war" I'm sure you can figure out who was misinformed.
For EU/USA it just didnt make sense that some country would want to suicide.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by jodokus31 »

enterisys wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 8:09 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:49 pm
That's the dilemma. Russia sees countries freely enter NATO, but for them its a threat, obviously. What is the assurance for Russia, that USA in shape of NATO will not attack? Even if NATO never has the intention to do it, it's still a threat for them
USA has certain fear, that Russia could compete in preeminence in the world according to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHn0IVqDGOA
Seems, that the strategy worked...
Take a look 1 year back. How often did russia appear in your tv or other independent news?
I can bet that no one was discussing it because its just that insignificant. (as an example EU GDP 30% of world, 550mln people; ru GDP 2%, 140mln)
The same happened in USA tv/news.
How can something be seen as threat on one side, while the other side just doesn't care about you?
Clearly one side is misinformed.
Seeing the "success" of russian army on 27th day of "3 day war" I'm sure you can figure out who was misinformed.
For EU/USA it just didnt make sense that some country would want to suicide.
Actually, Russia appeared quite often in news. Mostly, because they had done something supposedly wrong again (poisoning, hacking, intervention in syria...)
But I don't understand, what you mean.

EDIT: Ah, you say that Russia is no competition. Might be. But, that's the opinion of the strategist

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by makrom »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:49 pm

That's the dilemma. Russia sees countries freely enter NATO, but for them its a threat, obviously. What is the assurance for Russia, that USA in shape of NATO will not attack? Even if NATO never has the intention to do it, it's still a threat for them
USA has certain fear, that Russia could compete in preeminence in the world according to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHn0IVqDGOA
Seems, that the strategy worked...
So if Nato expansion would have caused Switzerland to go totally ballistic (after all, they could easily afford to obtain nukes), you would just stand there and say "that's completely understandable".
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:00 pm
It's a problem, if people think, they are better than others. Honestly, it's one of the main problems of humanity.
Russia got weakened massively, as well as europe. But Russia will turn to east now with economic relations, i presume. China produces the most goods on the world anyway. But, I guess there is a lot more to be considered.
Right, the real problem is that I consider myself a better human being than Putin, not that he's doing all these Putin things. And deep inside Hitler, Idi Amin, Pol Pot and so on were really cool guys, who are we to judge...
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:00 pm
Russia got weakened massively, as well as europe. But Russia will turn to east now with economic relations, i presume. China produces the most goods on the world anyway. But, I guess there is a lot more to be considered.
As much as I would love to see this happening, I'll hold off celebrating until that's actually the case.

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Re: We support Ukraine

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makrom wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:37 pm
I'm talking about the fact that Russia has always been a threat to Eastern European countries. Just try to answer this, what would stop them from coming up with some ridiculous reason to invade the Baltics?
Write in more detail what is the threat? As a resident of Eastern Europe, I can say that Russia generally does not care what is happening here. No one here takes Russia seriously anymore.

March of SS legionnaires, harassment of Russian-speaking residents, the transfer or remove of WWII wars monuments , nazi statements by politicians, denial of the existence of death camps on the territory of Latvia (according to the locals, it was a labor camp with one large stove in the middle) almost no reaction from Russia (maybe a sigle note of protest from the embassy)

makrom wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 10:37 pm
Just relying that Russia would never attack a democratic neighbour?
I'm not even funny. Local politicians do not like this topic very much, but in Latvia little belongs to Latvia itself. A lot of land, manufacturing enterprises, shopping centers were purchased or built by non-Latvian companies. While they scare us all with the east, friends and neighbors came and bought everything. Many large enterprises collapsed. The whole country is gas stations and shopping centers.
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by mmmPI »

Just a reminder for random readers that the previous poster has posted ALL his post in this topic for which he registered. Regularly makes un-prooven claim. Learned about the fall of the USSR last week. Posted call to murder and other random pro-war copy paste in the channel. And did everything he can to try and discredit the idea of discussion which would explain why no one adress him directly.

The war is still happening in Ukraine for the 28th day since the invasion from Russia, people are dying everyday, others are starving and freezing, civilians and military all alike not much difference is made.

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Re: We support Ukraine

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mmmPI wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:41 am
Just a reminder for random readers that the previous poster has posted ALL his post in this topic for which he registered. Regularly makes un-prooven claim. Learned about the fall of the USSR last week. Posted call to murder and other random pro-war copy paste in the channel. And did everything he can to try and discredit the idea of discussion which would explain why no one adress him directly.

The war is still happening in Ukraine, people are dying everyday, others are starving and freezing, civilians and military all alike not much difference is made.
So why are you guys still feeding the trolls? It is clear they are clueless and cannot be reasoned with.

For me, it is a simple matter. People from the West are not fleeing to Russia, but there are millions of Russians who left their homeland for a better life in the West. Ukraine is fleeing form Russia's paws, but the Russian people don't want to let it be free. That's all there is to it.
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Re: We support Ukraine

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_Attila_ wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:02 am
So why are you guys still feeding the trolls? It is clear they are clueless and cannot be reasoned with.
I often see this on Ukrainian and Russian channels. Bots insert identical pieces of text with something. When asked to send evidence, you receive exactly the same piece of text.
This is a way to impose and consolidate the opinion necessary for the bot.
_Attila_ wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:02 am
For me, it is a simple matter. People from the West are not fleeing to Russia, but there are millions of Russians who left their homeland for a better life in the West. Ukraine is fleeing form Russia's paws, but the Russian people don't want to let it be free. That's all there is to it.
Only those who missed the USSR and the Iron Curtain will probably run to Russia now.

The Russians came up with a new horror story. Poland wants to send its troops (not NATO) to western Ukraine to protect the borders of Poland.
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by jodokus31 »

makrom wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:27 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 7:49 pm

That's the dilemma. Russia sees countries freely enter NATO, but for them its a threat, obviously. What is the assurance for Russia, that USA in shape of NATO will not attack? Even if NATO never has the intention to do it, it's still a threat for them
USA has certain fear, that Russia could compete in preeminence in the world according to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHn0IVqDGOA
Seems, that the strategy worked...
So if Nato expansion would have caused Switzerland to go totally ballistic (after all, they could easily afford to obtain nukes), you would just stand there and say "that's completely understandable".
Switzerland has other type of securities. Also, I'm deeply shocked, what Russia is doing currently. I just think, it wasn't good to stress a very fragile relation.
I don't believe the narrative of pure russian aggression and evilness.
makrom wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:27 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:00 pm
It's a problem, if people think, they are better than others. Honestly, it's one of the main problems of humanity.
Russia got weakened massively, as well as europe. But Russia will turn to east now with economic relations, i presume. China produces the most goods on the world anyway. But, I guess there is a lot more to be considered.
Right, the real problem is that I consider myself a better human being than Putin, not that he's doing all these Putin things. And deep inside Hitler, Idi Amin, Pol Pot and so on were really cool guys, who are we to judge...
No, you got it twisted. The deeds they did or are doing are not cool. But they are still human, who made mistakes.
Who decides, that you are better? Are you better, because your mistakes were less severe? Or do you never made any mistake? Or simply, because you are better by some other measure? Who else is worse than you? Are there any people, who are better than you? Are they allowed to condemn you? Who is neutral enough to decide?
That's getting philosophical!
makrom wrote: ↑
Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:27 pm
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Mon Mar 21, 2022 9:00 pm
Russia got weakened massively, as well as europe. But Russia will turn to east now with economic relations, i presume. China produces the most goods on the world anyway. But, I guess there is a lot more to be considered.
As much as I would love to see this happening, I'll hold off celebrating until that's actually the case.
So, you think it's a good thing? You are from Canada? Why do you even care, if they turn they backs against Europe?
I think, it's a loss for whole human society, esp. for Europe

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by jodokus31 »

Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:20 am
_Attila_ wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:02 am
For me, it is a simple matter. People from the West are not fleeing to Russia, but there are millions of Russians who left their homeland for a better life in the West. Ukraine is fleeing form Russia's paws, but the Russian people don't want to let it be free. That's all there is to it.
Only those who missed the USSR and the Iron Curtain will probably run to Russia now.
Yep, Who with a right mind would go to Russia and get not only oppressed by the government, but also get sanctioned from west like crazy? Maybe some are OK with the russian government, but those sanctions hurt

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:35 am
Switzerland has other type of securities. Also, I'm deeply shocked, what Russia is doing currently. I just think, it wasn't good to stress a very fragile relation.
I don't believe the narrative of pure russian aggression and evilness.
You should really study russian history then, how many wars they started and how many territories they occupied.
And, on contrary, I don't remember any ex-USSR NATO members starting any invasions since medieval times.
Also, NATO is DEFENSIVE alliance, there is literally 0 legal provisions for attack. The only threat putin sees in NATO is that it will protect territores that he wants to occupy. PERIOD.

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Re: We support Ukraine

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enterisys wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:48 am
Also, NATO is DEFENSIVE alliance, there is literally 0 legal provisions for attack.
Double standarts ?

Legally, there is no war in Ukraine. And in fact there is.
Also, NATO is DEFENSIVE alliance, there is literally 0 LEGAL provisions for attack , but in fact?

'Can't forget children who died': Serbia To Not Join NATO, President Vucic Recalls Bloc’s Aggression Against It In 1999 War
https://www.republicworld.com/world-new ... eshow.html

You can see for yourself that if no one called a war a war, this does not mean that there is no war there.
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

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jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:47 am
Yep, Who with a right mind would go to Russia and get not only oppressed by the government, but also get sanctioned from west like crazy? Maybe some are OK with the russian government, but those sanctions hurt
And the more I do not understand our politicians. In Russia, a dictatorship, the inhabitants oppress. And let's cancel their visas, so that they would continue to cook in the Russian boiler.
I think your are confusing my opinion with the truth.

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

Djmixxx wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:09 pm
Double standarts ?

Legally, there is no war in Ukraine. And in fact there is.
Also, NATO is DEFENSIVE alliance, there is literally 0 LEGAL provisions for attack , but in fact?

'Can't forget children who died': Serbia To Not Join NATO, President Vucic Recalls Bloc’s Aggression Against It In 1999 War
https://www.republicworld.com/world-new ... eshow.html

You can see for yourself that if no one called a war a war, this does not mean that there is no war there.
Exactly defensive. Are you trying to protect a guy who is a convicted war criminal by appealing to kids deaths like only Serbia kids died?
The same way you try to confirm Ukraine bombed Donbas for 8 years, yet the first thing russians do is drop rocket on center Donetsk?

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Re: We support Ukraine

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enterisys wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:48 am
jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 11:35 am
Switzerland has other type of securities. Also, I'm deeply shocked, what Russia is doing currently. I just think, it wasn't good to stress a very fragile relation.
I don't believe the narrative of pure russian aggression and evilness.
You should really study russian history then, how many wars they started and how many territories they occupied.
And, on contrary, I don't remember any ex-USSR NATO members starting any invasions since medieval times.
Also, NATO is DEFENSIVE alliance, there is literally 0 legal provisions for attack. The only threat putin sees in NATO is that it will protect territores that he wants to occupy. PERIOD.
NATO is "defensively" expanding since more than 20 years, because those countries feel threatened by russian aggression and evilness. But no worries for Russia, if they just stop being aggressive and evil.
If Russia just has the intention to occupy these territories, why sovjet union was dissolved in the first place? Why did they start to have a democracy, which doesn't seem to work very well.
I don't say, I know everything, but that's my current perception. I also see the bad situation in Belarus and how the people getting oppressed with different opinions. Maybe Ukraine would be similar, if Yanukovych still was in charge?

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Re: We support Ukraine

Post by enterisys »

jodokus31 wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 23, 2022 12:29 pm
NATO is "defensively" expanding since more than 20 years, because those countries feel threatened by russian aggression and evilness. But no worries for Russia, if they just stop being aggressive and evil.
If Russia just has the intention to occupy these territories, why sovjet union was dissolved in the first place? Why did they start to have a democracy, which doesn't seem to work very well.
I don't say, I know everything, but that's my current perception. I also see the bad situation in Belarus and how the people getting oppressed with different opinions. Maybe Ukraine would be similar, if Yanukovych still was in charge?
You call it expanding, I call it countries joining. See the difference? Did NATO forced them to join? No, russia did.
You can find reasons why USSR disbanded on the wiki, not sure why it's relevant here. But still even looking all post-soviet countries that joined EU have much better economies than tzar economy in russia who is stuck in 1960s with fossils.
lukashenko is a lifetime tyrant in Belarus, yanukovich was elected for much shorter regular term. In Ukraine politicians come and go because that's what democracies do.

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