Friday Facts #399 - Trash to Treasure

[FuryoftheStars]

That said there are totally other productions besides quality modules where it can make sense to put any rejects/excess modules there temporarily, because you are going to use up those items anyway rather than eventually having to destroy them.

See, not to me. To me, I'd leave those "reject" Q modules in the cycle to create Legendaries as otherwise it'd slow the cycle in producing Legendaries, and would require more overhead from me manually to place them, then replace them.

Whatever potential cost savings elsewhere isn't worth it at that stage of the game.

[Saphira123456]

So Vulcanus is "craft everything from lava" and Fulgora is "craft everything from scrap". Instead of creating new planets why not just add more stuff to Nauvis like caverns/mountains/islands/deep ocean or other biomes, each with unique resources? It also doesn't help that both of those planets are completely lifeless and devoid of risk.

Yeah, full agreement (with the exception of "Devoid of risk". That lightning seems like a big one.) Other planets are great and all, but honestly? From my perspective - I'm not a programmer or game designer, so outside looking in - it seems like they could totally stick ALLLL this stuff on Nauvis for much less time, energy and materials. They could probably charge us less for it too, when it comes out.

The mechanics seem to be fairly identical and pretty repetitive as well with the same one or two loops over and over again with different materials (lava, scrap and oil sludge), and some of the new mechanics are entirely unnecessary. Some of them are quite nice though, such as the ability to void items into the environment or through some type of machine, which would have been great in the base game.

Almost all these different mechanics could easily find a home on Nauvis. (Except for the space platform, though I can find use-cases for a space station too.)

From the outside looking in, the things they've said so far don't really necessitate new planets, just new biomes. In fact, it seems like Vulcanus and Fulgora can easily be eliminated in their entirety without removing the new mechanics or the new content.

Most of the new mechanics don't really add anything to the gameplay, in fact most of it is just the same old loop from Vulcanus, adding in another loop for the oil sludge harvesting. The mechanics that do add new content appear as if they can be integrated into Nauvis and don't require other planets to be made.

I love the ideas and applaud WUBE's efforts, but from the outside looking in, the execution appears like it can be vastly simplified. Based on what they've said so far, the DLC doesn't need to be "space exploration", especially when it's just "new biome integration". Couple new loops that add new gameplay options, but the rest is just eye candy.

From my perspective, which is from someone with no experience in the programming or game design industry, it would seem the developers are quickly developing Aperture Science Industries syndrome - making their game far more complex, expansive, and expensive for the consumer than they reasonably need to be. I cannot speak to the reasoning behind this (though I have my guesses, but I do not wish to be too critical or even rude) all I know is that it does seem to be happening.

Regardless, I intend to buy the expansion when it comes out. These new planets and mechanics may be mostly eye candy, but they're really good-looking, sounding, etcetera eye candy. The effort put into them may be entirely unnecessary, but it was effort nonetheless and I will appreciate it with my senses and my wallet.

[MeduSalem]

I'm the same way in the base game, not much benefit in using them compared to the hassle of equipping each machine with them. Plus they only work for intermediates, which I think is bad design. They should work for all products. The new modules should all work for all products as well.

If you refer to the productivity modules being limited to ingredients... well then that is not bad design. There were legit reasons why they did that. I cannot remember all the specifics anymore but I was there when a similar discussion was held about 9 or 10 years ago. I think one of the major points about it was the concept of productivity itself as follows:

One shouldn't think of productivity in terms of "how many items do I get extra per item" but instead "how many resources do I save for doing 1 item".

That is important because for example with a better "process" you may be able to "reduce" the amount iron you need to craft a gearwheel. You are stretching the input resource to make more out of it, less waste so to speak. That is possible for many of the intermediate items.
But if you take an end product... well you can't reduce the number of ingredients you need to make the product work. For example you can't make a car with only 3.2 wheels. You need 4. (Yea I know bad example because Factorio doesn't even have rubber or wheels) Anyway I think that is why productivity is only applied to intermediates.^^

But that said, there were also mathematical reasons where the crafting cascade would get very ridiculous to the point you have almost no consumption anymore. So it was also done for balancing reasons.



The quality modules however will not be facing that limit. You can put them almost everywhere with only very few exceptions (like fluids, etc).

I think with the 5 extra tiers of quality plus 3 quality levels for modules, it just stretches out the time it takes to reach the tier 3 quality 5 modules so it will make it more worth using intermediate modules. However all this quality just artificially extends the wait time to get to the best quality. Some of the quality implications are kind of cool, like the random quality chances and filtering the quality tiers automatically. This stuff though just feels like padding the game length for the sake of padding.

Of course the entire concept of quality is for stretching the endgame so you have a long term goal to work towards. xD

I mean, what keeps people playing really... goals. Something you can work towards. A sense of perfection or whatever. ^^

I am only satisfied when that last damn power pole I accidentally placed somewhere out in the wilderness and which I run by every now and then but never tear down will also be replaced with a legendary one! xD

Nah, usually I am not that dedicated myself really, but I get that some people are. ^^

[Karamel]

supercapacitors?

[SkerrittT]

I don't pre-order games.

Unless it's Factorio.

The level of effort that you guys are putting into the game and the expansion is really legendary. It's a credit to you I'm happy for your success I'm even happier for the enjoyment I get from the game. I am really looking forward to the expansion I must say.

[TiMatic]

One inherited problem involving non-deterministic recipes like those is that one of the outlets can become bottlenecked if consumption is not balanced. For example, solid fuel is the second most common material on average. Lightning rods absorb energy during the night into accumulators, Ice + offshore pump-Heavy-Oil-to-solid-fuel boilers to generate energy during the day, rocket launches, and maybe rocket fuel for train logistics.

The existence of non-deterministic and non-handled excess byproducts creates unique challenges that conflict with other production lines or block them from producing other necessities. There is no question that it can and will do this. Acting like it can be 'solved in many ways' will not change the reality of oscillating, starved, or blocked production lines.

I would be remiss to point out that it is not fun or challenging to "return to Fulgora to manually clear stones or ice or whatever excessed product" for the umpteenth time. I know this to be true because it has happened to me in mods, especially those well-known for having production lines with imbalanced input/output and non-deterministic in some cases.

The non-determinism is a red herring, it has no effect on gameplay. You will get everything in proportion and you don't have to consider luck or bad luck.

Excess byproducts can be handled in many ways. There is never a need to manually clear out things you don't have a use for, you can just void them automatically. Fulgora is the planet that gives you the void machine.

Instead of the voiding machine, there is another way to get rid of things on Fulgora.
After all, the destruction here comes from above.
You can place chests (or have them placed) in unprotected areas, then let them fill with all the material you want to get rid of, and then wait until night falls and the lightning bolts destroy the chests.

2478781a90.gif (2.09 MiB) Viewed 3424 times

[fuelstaind]

- You need to ship in a resource which is usually abundant and is needed in huge amounts - check. "But you don't have to" - yeah, trains will be burning what then?

As far as I got, you can get heavy oil, which you can use to fuel trains?

You also have a 7% chance to get solid fuel from recycling scrap.

[malecord]

I do hope (and actually expect) to be proven wrong though!

Well from the info we have so far it looks that each planet has a unique advanced resource needed for a unique science pack and another basic resource needed to build the unique high tier assembly machine (foundry, electromagnetic plant) and one utility item (super drill, tier 3 quality module). Plus other planetary recipe variations but that's not relevant.

I guess only the science pack is a blocker, the others are optional for the sole purpose of ending the game.

The question is if we can launch into space the unique resources and assemble all the stuff on Navius or not.

[FasterJump]

...does it means that an infinite production loop is possible with recyclers?

I was wondering the same. I think we will likely see how it will turn out when the expansion is out.

I know they wrote that there will be a 300% productivity cap on machines
...

I see that I am not the only who had this idea.

Personally I would't overthink it it.

With Q5 T3 quality modules, an electromagnetic plant can have +175% productivity bonus (x2.75 output multiplier). With 4 module slots for the recycler, we have 100% productivity bonus (x2.00 multiplier). 2.75 x 2.00 x 0.25 = 1.375, which is a positive infinite loop. Of course, this assume "legendary" modules, which would not be accessible until very late game... And you would need a ton of machines and modules because you can't speed it up with beacons (quality penalty).

It could be nice if the quality penalty only applies if the overall machine speed is >1.00, otherwise machiles could be very slow with a 40% speed(assembler) or 15% speed (electromagnetic plant), given that each T3 productivity module reduces speed by 15% (does quality reduces this speed penalty?)

[ryanalpasta]

THE SCRAP IDEA IS AMAZING I LOVE IT SO MUCH
i'm so pumped to play a totally different product sequence than normal, y'all are so creative, I love how much y'all are willing to play around with this and how you're not settling for a typical linear expansion. YAY!

[MeduSalem]

The question is if we can launch into space the unique resources and assemble all the stuff on Navius or not.

I would rather consider building most of the factory where you will be having infinite resources. Like Vulcanus for Iron/Copper based stuff. Fulgora seems to be good for Oil because of the oily sand.

Because then you will have to expand less and rather keep stuff in a concentrated place. Craft as much as possible to reduce the number of items, and then ship it from one of them to the other planet.

And I feel like Nauvis will be... well... I kinda doubt I will be spending much time on it anymore except for early to mid game, unless there are resources on Nauvis that aren't found on any of the other more specialized planets.

Or at least that is my theory. Will see how it works out or if shipping a bulk of stuff between planets will be just too prohibitively expensive no matter what.

[MeduSalem]

With Q5 T3 quality modules, an electromagnetic plant can have +175% productivity bonus (x2.75 output multiplier). With 4 module slots for the recycler, we have 100% productivity bonus (x2.00 multiplier). 2.75 x 2.00 x 0.25 = 1.375, which is a positive infinite loop. Of course, this assume "legendary" modules, which would not be accessible until very late game... And you would need a ton of machines and modules because you can't speed it up with beacons (quality penalty).

It could be nice if the quality penalty only applies if the overall machine speed is >1.00, otherwise machiles could be very slow with a 40% speed(assembler) or 15% speed (electromagnetic plant), given that each T3 productivity module reduces speed by 15% (does quality reduces this speed penalty?)

Sounds extreme already even without considering the productivity carried over the crafting cascade.

That said the machines can also be legendary themselves too, which increases their base crafting speed significantly, so one doesn't necessarily have to speed them up by beacons/speed modules. They might still be fast enough despite all the debuffs from modules. ^^

Also I kinda doubt that there will be no downside to quality modules. All the modules have a downside to them. ^^

Anyway I am looking forward to it, because I love spreadsheets and theory crafting like that.

[Ricecream0x03]

I don't know how much discussion there's been about this topic, and it might be too late to make drastic changes, but personally I'm saddened by the absence of natural inhabitants on the new planets (or at least on Fulgora).

I agree with the thought that going around destroying nests for lengthy amounts of time isn't what Factorio is supposed to be about, and in general defending your base isn't what the gameplay loop mainly consists of, either. It's about coming up with solutions to handle new resources, recipes, and other factory-development-related problems, and optimizing/automating those solutions.

Thematically, though, when you go from struggling to fend off a wave or two of unionizing natives to dropping orbital missiles and sending mechanical spiders equipped with death rays to lay waste to the once bothersome creatures, it really feels like you're conquering the planet and growing your factory in the midst of challenge and adversity. Because of this I've always been more interested in the military technologies that you unlock as your access to new resources improves, as opposed to other lines of research. The fight for survival in my opinion really immerses you and makes the world feel real in a way no other facet of the game provides - the reason being that if you refuse to interact with it, any progress you make will continue to be ruined, and you may even be stalled from progressing permanently (which is pretty much the same as losing). This makes Factorio feel more "gamey" to me, and provides breaks between the countless of hours of creating and placing buildings/blueprints. Lastly I'd like to point out that all the features surrounding aliens can be disabled in the base game, and if they are causing annoyance to players who simply want to focus on their factory, they are by no means required to deal with that frustration.

In this post it was said, "There's something really satisfying about [the sky] trying to kill you but then you turn it around and exploit it." I think fighting off aliens on the new planets could be applied much in the same way. I'm not going to suggest ideas on what these new aliens might look like or how they might be implemented differently than the base planet, as I know the Factorio team would blow anything I could come up with out of the water. I would just ask that the development team consider if Factorio will really be a better game if the need to occasionally protect what you've spent time building up is removed (at least for the middle and/or later stages of the game). There are other reasons why I think the presence of aliens makes Factorio more interesting/fun, but I don't want to beat a dead horse.

Of course, we haven't seen the last planet yet, which may have aliens, and you may have already implemented new military technologies. However, without an increase in the variety and nature of enemies to fight, which attempt to destroy your factories on every planet, I believe such changes will be less meaningful and as a result less enjoyable.

[drNokard]

You're so damn crazy!
That's why I love you!!!

If I were a game developer I would code like you, have a website like yours, and brainstorm like you do!

You are my computer role model!

[FuryoftheStars]

It also doesn't help that both of those planets are completely lifeless and devoid of risk.

Wasn't there something mentioned in the Vulcanis FFF hinting at disturbing a sleeping enemy?

Yup, found it. https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-386

Welcome to Vulcanus

Allow me to introduce this toasty volcanic wonderland, conveniently sandwiched between idyllic Nauvis and the sizzling sun. Vulcanus is closer to the sun than most would dare to venture but trust me, it's a splendid place to start your interplanetary travels.

Picture of Vulcanus

Our journey begins amidst the blazing volcanic mountains, imposing geological landforms that often feature a central lava pit. These fiery crucibles offer a great place to get rid of waste items; just throw them in and poof, they're gone in a glorious puff of smoke and flame. Outdated gadgets, cursed rings of power, maybe even unwanted company.

And a few videos later...

I'm sure nothing will mind if you mine a little...

video

...but who knows what might awaken in the depths of Vulcanus.

----------------------------------------------------

Do trains survive lightning strikes? Rails have been explicitely mentined as immune, if trains are vulnerable to lightnings, that would be quite upsetting. Unless there would be some mechanic to prevent trains from departing at nights

I believe it was mentioned in the FFF where interrupts were first introduced that there was a condition for these that would be useful for a specific planet....

And found this, too. https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-389

Interrupt in interrupt

Normally, when an interrupt is activated, other interrupts won't be able to interfere until it is finished. But in some specific cases, this is too limiting, so we added a another special interrupt condition, called "In interrupt". This allows the interrupt to trigger while another interrupt is in progress, which clears the original interrupt and replaces it with the new interrupt targets.

There is some very specific case where this is a crucial thing to have, but it is on a planet we didn't reveal yet, so more on that later .

I don't think they've given us more details on that, yet, so this may not be the use case they meant.

Even if not, seems they've said the demo video is a beefed up version, trains pathing through likely can survive multiple hits. Then they can be repaired once they reach their next destination.

[Rebmes]

Well, it looks glorious to me. I love how you're incorporating certain challenge elements into these new planets that will encourage us to build differently. And give us new things to brings back to Nauvis!

[Jackalope_Gaming]

Quick numbers in case anyone is coming in and needs them: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-375 shows recyclers have 4 module slots and Q5T3 productivity modules increase productivity by 25% each.

Numbers for the EM plant are already mentioned (though they'd run at 25% speed, not 15% because 5x15=75% slower), so let's look at productivity in general with regards to the recycler being introduced.

4x25% = 100% extra out of the recycler, so its 25% becomes 50%. Then we need that 50% to become 100% to break even, which is also another 100% increased achieved with 4x25% modules.

This means that the moment the recycler was introduced, it was possible to break even on recycling with any crafting building that had 4 module slots. Any building with 5+ module slots and/or its own productivity boost (and the EM plant gets both, yay!) will thus give what amounts to an infinite production loop.

That 300% productivity limit on a single machine means absolutely nothing because all it takes is 100% on the recycler and 100% on something else and you've got an infinite loop between them. To prevent that loop would require lowering max productivity to under 100% and/or lowering the recycler's base output below 25%.

But as it stands with the EM plant+recycler combo being 137.5%: Start with 100 of whatever, and when it turns into 137.5 just use splitter priority to keep 100 in the system and output 37.5 for absolutely free. Yay infinite resources!

And considering the needed materials to get Q5 prod modules, getting Q5 buildings for this would be plenty doable and thus however much space might have "balanced" this would get shrunk significantly.

[mmmPI]

Quick numbers in case anyone is coming in and needs them: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-375 shows recyclers have 4 module slots and Q5T3 productivity modules increase productivity by 25% each.

Nope ! Those are quality module ! not productivity . You can't place productivity modules in recyclers.

I can't exactly recall where i was told the information, i had missed it at first, but there was lengthy discussion on the numbers on at least 2 thread when the quality feature was announced so maybe it was a link to a reddit post or a discord. The 300% cap in productivity was introduced on purpose to avoid positive feedback loop from what i recall in the FFF, and i expect the devs to have made it without flaw. If there is one spotted, i think as it's a design decision it will patched or changed as it's the whole point of placing the cap in the first place.

Yeah, full agreement (with the exception of "Devoid of risk". That lightning seems like a big one.) Other planets are great and all, but honestly? From my perspective - I'm not a programmer or game designer, so outside looking in - it seems like they could totally stick ALLLL this stuff on Nauvis for much less time, energy and materials. They could probably charge us less for it too, when it comes out.

The mechanics seem to be fairly identical and pretty repetitive as well with the same one or two loops over and over again with different materials (lava, scrap and oil sludge), and some of the new mechanics are entirely unnecessary. Some of them are quite nice though, such as the ability to void items into the environment or through some type of machine, which would have been great in the base game.

Almost all these different mechanics could easily find a home on Nauvis. (Except for the space platform, though I can find use-cases for a space station too.)

From the outside looking in, the things they've said so far don't really necessitate new planets, just new biomes. In fact, it seems like Vulcanus and Fulgora can easily be eliminated in their entirety without removing the new mechanics or the new content.

But if it was just new biome and not new planet you could just keep one base and add train tracks or belts, or just walk to every ressources, you would only keep one source of energy like solar pannel would work work everywhere at the same time, and you would not have to adapt to the different environment, because you just use the electricity from the next door biome with electric wire, but obvisouly you can't do that up to other planets.

Also the different planets have different ressources present in them, if it was just different biome it would just be a matter of finding 2 biome next to each other and building in the middle to have the ressourcess of 2 planets with 0 challenge. I don't think there will be lava on Nauvis, but that is only thanks to the different planets, existing otherwise it would be as easy as on Vulcanus to void item in lava, whereas now it make no sense to ship things to Vulcanus to drop it on lava because you can just drop it to space.

There was a concept art of a new biter revealed too, if it was just a different biome how would it work ? the ennemy should stop at the border of their biome ? that would be lame, and if not you would have some fiery enemy and some icy enemy at the same time ? that would feel wrong too. New planets allow new ennemies to stick in their "biome" in a way that make more sense for a video game i think.

I'm glad the expansion show a lot of things, and that it's not just a cheap half-empty DLC.

[Jackalope_Gaming]

Quick numbers in case anyone is coming in and needs them: https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-375 shows recyclers have 4 module slots and Q5T3 productivity modules increase productivity by 25% each.

Nope ! Those are quality module ! not productivity . You can't place productivity modules in recyclers.

I can't exactly recall where i was told the information, i had missed it at first, but there was lengthy discussion on the numbers on at least 2 thread when the quality feature was announced so maybe it was a link to a reddit post or a discord. The 300% cap in productivity was introduced on purpose to avoid positive feedback loop from what i recall in the FFF, and i expect the devs to have made it without flaw. If there is one spotted, i think as it's a design decision it will patched or changed as it's the whole point of placing the cap in the first place.

Recyclers not allowing productivity modules cleans things up very, very well. And would have been nice to see explicitly in any of the Friday Facts since the announcement of recyclers, not just implied with 300% productivity cap and how that'd only work if productivity modules don't work in recyclers.

[malecord]

I would rather consider building most of the factory where you will be having infinite resources. Like Vulcanus for Iron/Copper based stuff. Fulgora seems to be good for Oil because of the oily sand.

There is no "infinite" resource in the sense of place miner once and it goes on forever.

Splitting lava into molten metals require calcite that has to be mined from finite deposits. Splitting oil requires water that also has to be mined from finite scrap deposits on Fulgora.

Not to mention that sending stuff in space require rockets which require all kind of materials.