Friday Facts #430 - Drowning in Fluids

[Mathematician]

I was using pipe visualiser since a while so it's good to see it integrated into base games.
Pump nerf is great. It often felt unreasonable how fast fluid wagons can be emptied.
Shouldn't fluid storage also be increased to match fluid/tile ratio?
I don't really get pipe limit. Why is it area based and not length based? Anyway, good that "infinite" pipelines are countered.

[BrainlessTeddy]

I don't fully understand I think. So the fluid will be pumped into a pipe segment of 250x250 tiles just like the other FFF said. And will spread across the whole segment near instantly but when it reaches 250 tiles away from the source pump(?) I'll need a new pump and new segment to make the fluid go further. That right?

Also 256x256 does sound better.

[Justderpingalong]

Fluid Wagons being twice as big and having a higher Flow Rate, hrrm, surely nobody will use Fluid Wagon Tanks instead of regular Fluid Tanks to save space or something stupendous like that. The Tile to Fluid Ratio just so happens to be on the sweet spot to allow those shenanigans.

Not sure how they're more space efficient given a pump connected to a fluid wagen is a 4x6 grid, whereas 2 storage tanks (same capacity) is a 3x6.

At the same time however I can already hear Dosh building a fluid bus out of fluid wagons... (imagine if you were still able to stuff 3 fluids in a single wagon)

On an unrelated note. Whilst it had to be fixed... god am I disappointed we're no longer gonna have instant (un)loading fluids from trains. Because it was just... silly hilarious fun.

oh and 256x256 pls. You gave us 32 length big poles. Don't introduce another slightly off-chunk limit!

[Tertius]

A good change. It addresses the worst oddities of the originally announced mechanic and turns it back into a more natural and real feeling system again. Especially the infinitely log pipe was something I welcomed first as interesting new possibility to bring in crude oil instead of fluid wagons, but it was too exploitable up to a point where it would probably control the gameplay. More dynamic fluid in and fluid out is also good. More natural and real, less exploitable.

I guess, now most people who never read any fff but just update to 2.0 will not detect any change at all. It will just work slightly better now for them.

How the pump nerf will work out is yet to be seen. The throughput is more reasonable now. The previous ridiculous 12000/s followed directly from the old algorithm, so I guess that's just a correction of a value that had to be too high in the first place.

[gaddhi]

With the recent changes, you already introduced limits on the max input/output rate based on fullness ratio of the respective pipe segments.

Instead of extents with a size of 250x250, have you thought about adjusting the max input/output rate based on the size of a pipe segment in the following way:
- If the pipe segment is smaller than 250x250, then both rates are not adjusted
- if the pipe segment is 250x250 or larger, then both rates are adjusted gradually (perhaps inversely propotional to its size normalized to 250x250)

This would also induce players to build pumps to increase throughput and could simultaneously allow low throughput for large pipe segments.

I understand that such a method would require fine tuning of the rates.

[Hares]

Factorio Developers: We don't like how people surround buildings with beacons resulting in the always the same pattern.
Also Factorio Developers:

[GregoriusT]

Not sure how they're more space efficient given a pump connected to a fluid wagen is a 4x6 grid, whereas 2 storage tanks (same capacity) is a 3x6.

12 Tiles for the wagon, 2 for the pump, makes 14 Tiles or 16 Tiles if you need 2 Pumps. While two Tanks are 18 Tiles in Total.

Sure it is not going into the Square Hole that everyone desires, but it surely works well with Diagonal Wagon Tanks, which can now join the Diagonal Smelter in the great Halls of Diagonality!

[BrainlessTeddy]

I don't fully understand I think. So the fluid will be pumped into a pipe segment of 250x250 tiles just like the other FFF said. And will spread across the whole segment near instantly but when it reaches 250 tiles away from the source pump(?) I'll need a new pump and new segment to make the fluid go further. That right?

Also if that is the case it does feel kinda artificial and most will just place down pumps when the UI tells them to. That does sound kinda boring no?

I was hoping to have the throughput of each pipe calculated by how many pipes are between it and the "source pump". Like when you connect a refinery to a pipe system where the nearest pump / pumpjack is 10 pipes away, the refinery would get at most pump throughput - 10 * some number. Easy to explain, easy to calculate but still somewhat realistic and complex and requires a little bit of planning. But it's just numbers and math so no flow. Fluids would still be "transportet" instantly just not all of the 1200(0)/s of a pump.

Edit: Also that would make huge networks kinda impossible since you would need to place pump 2 pump to get the throughput over long distances.

Edit II: Forget about the long distance thing. Pump > two undies > pump would still get you a reasonable throughput but that requires power all the way. Which would be the same as in 1.1 or your new system. (Maybe I still don't get how the new system prevents long distance pipe networks.)

Edit about Quality:
Since my other comment got deleted for spamming: The Quality system is still bugging me. It seems to be a way to make getting the construction material for a big base harder. Unloading a train in 14 seconds does seem kinda long but hey we got our solution: Quality. Doesn't sound too optional to me anymore. Same with powerpole range which is kinda the basis on which I start planning my bases. But everything really. It already was a hassle to get everything from substations, tier 3 modules to blue belts etc. to even start building a megabase. But now you can't even plan the basic layout before having some legendary stuff (still not really a Factorio-ish name). Let alone making all the legendary construction material to start building.

On a positive note to all my rambling: I do like the pipe overlay and going all the way back to the website redesign I really love the rocket that takes you up to the top of the page.

[TN_Creator]

I don't understand the initial state in the first video in the "Pipeline extents" section. Why is the pipe section not flowing despite having a powered pump right there on the right ?

[DrakeyC]

256*256

Why do you people care so much about chunks? You need to fit your base within 16 radar's range?

One word - tiling. Having things take up the same amount of space and occupy the same position makes it easier to use blueprints, to plan expansions to the factory, and just layout everything. That's the big reason people were calling for the range of the big power pole to be increased from 30 to 32, so it's easier to tile. When running a straight stretch of rail, it doesn't seem a big deal, but imagine you go back later and have to build a junction off that line and need to reposition power poles to be able to split the junction off properly.

Additionally, with players now on other planets and having to change their factories around from afar, yes, having your entire base be within radar coverage will be critical.

[XT-248]

I am disappointed with the pipe network's size limitation. At the same time, it does give little reason to use alternative logistics other than pipe, but not by that much.

I would have to play with the new modified fluid logistics a bit before commenting further on fluid logistics in Space Age, Patch 2.0, or both.

[Taipion]

Who TF thought limiting pumps by 10x would be a good idea??!?!

Now my nuclear reactors (who still falsely say they consume nuclear fuel (that stuff to power vehicles) instead of nuclear fuel cells... and they say that's correct... anyways...)

Now my nuclear reactors will need 5x to 10x as many pipes, as it won't be an option anymore to consolidate pipes for that reason.

That's a huge step backwards and totally uncalled for, I really hope that's just an oversight and will be reverted before the release!

[orzelek]

Who TF thought limiting pumps by 10x would be a good idea??!?!

Now my nuclear reactors (who still falsely say they consume nuclear fuel (that stuff to power vehicles) instead of nuclear fuel cells... and they say that's correct... anyways...)

Now my nuclear reactors will need 5x to 10x as many pipes, as it won't be an option anymore to consolidate pipes for that reason.

That's a huge step backwards and totally uncalled for, I really hope that's just an oversight and will be reverted before the release!

You missed a bit where it states that steam expands now so you use 1 water to make 10 steam. So overall use of water for reactor stays the same.

[ickputzdirwech]

Instead of using a 250*250 bounding box as the limiting factor the number of pipe segments should be the relevant number. It is far more realistic (which I know is not that important in game design) but it being realistic also makes it more intuitive.

Also instead of either 100% or 0%, the output should be a function relative to the number of pipe segments. For example 100% for 1-50 segments and then dropping near 0% at 300 segments. It might be worth to consider counting underground pipes and fluid pipes as multiple segments to balance long distance pipelines with distribution pipelines.

With that system a player could decide how much throughput their pipeline needs and therefore how often they need to place pumps.

[BeimDeich]

A nice improvement to the visualization, but I would have liked to see valves introduced into the game. Liquid-stopping pumps are not realistic with the amount of flow. In my opinion, these quantities would only be possible with centrifugal pumps, which are never liquid-stopping. The best way to compare the behavior in the game is with gear pumps or piston or diaphragm pumps, but they are nowhere near the flow rate....

[Terrahertz]

So, nulcear power is ~10 times more viable in space and on Fulgora? Neat. Fulgora steam power will also be considerably less bottlenecked by valuable ice, letting people use up all that scrap solid fuel more effectively.

However, I’m a very curious about the implications for Vulcanus, because steam condensation is obviously also adjusted to the new ratio. So unless the acid steam recipe is changed, that means the planet will have 10x less water on it. Alternatively, if acid neutralisation outputs 10x more steam to offset the change, that would make geothermal energy 10x more powerful. One of these options will unavoidably make it into the game, and I really wonder which it will be.

Steam condensation? acid steam? acid neutralisation? geothermal energy? valuable ice?
Seems like someone had an early access to the game (a LAN party probably)

I was always wondering why in all the footage from Vulcanus you never see any power generation, according to the Factoriopedia Article the planet has 4x more power from solar, still you would need a lot of the stuff. Seems we got our explanation

[bmmtstb]

+1 for pipe visualizer


So is there still no vanilla way of using three pumps on one side of a fluid wagon? And now we're even more pump limited. Unloading fluid trains in a large to mega-base scale was always a struggle and is nearly impossible now.

I get that with quality upgrades technically possible in the game, there needs to be an advantage for pumps, but in my opinion 3*1.2k/s loading from a fluid wagon to an (near empty) tank should be much faster. Especially faster than 14 seconds...
And then given us a solution using quality, when quality is optional doesn't sound fair for people not wanting to handle the new quality stuff.

I mean the solution is to pump from wagon to a tank and from that tank to another tank, because then the unloading tank is always near empty, but this just takes up more space than it should. Especially because we need to have pumps on both sides of a train-wagon.

---

So along each pipe bus we now need to have power-lines too...

[arturoszulc]

Maybe your arbitrary limitation will make me use barrels more. Maybe that's a good thing. Since belts can be infinite (I don't know why you didn't like inifinite pipelines, but you're ok with infinite belts and kilometers of main buses).
But one problem I see is that... I don't see. I mean pipelines, on the map view. There's too much going on there to see those thin lines. Can we get the ability to shadow out other elements and leave pipes more visible? Like some kind of filters... Or maybe make those lines more thick. I have poor eyesight, and that would be really helpful.

[DrakeyC]

I'll toss out also, it's always bugged me that storage tanks needed pumps to be able to actually do their intended job. Under the previous fluid dynamics, storage tanks increased the overall maximum amount of fluid the pipe system could contain, but since the pressure of the pipe had to be consistent, too often I'd end up with a storage tank with hundreds or perhaps a couple thousand units of liquid in it, but it isn't flowing to the buildings that need it because of pressure. Hence, I'd have to build a pump to pump the fluid out. I feel the storage tank should actually be what it says; a tank that stores fluid until the system needs it, not just an extra big pipe that acts as a reservoir for high-flow systems.

I don't know if that need for a pump is no longer an issue with the new fluid dynamics, but the fact we're still seeing them used in this FFF makes me dubious. That said, I'm also not sure of an elegant solution; you could hypothetically say that storage tanks have pumps build into them and input/output pipes are automatically designated, but that would make connections more difficult to set up. Maybe you could manually set up if each directional input/output is one or the other, but the need to do that for every storage tank you build would be a pain and some minor busywork that doesn't enrich the gameplay.

Also a general question - I have never used fluid barrels in any serious capacity. The only time I've used them is to barrel some heavy oil to get coal liquefaction started on isolated outposts. Seems to me that for the need to have assembly machines barreling and unloading the liquids, it'd be simpler to run pipes or a train hauling a liquid wagon. Am I missing something with this mechanic that makes it viable in certain scenarios?

[Taipion]

Who TF thought limiting pumps by 10x would be a good idea??!?!

Now my nuclear reactors (who still falsely say they consume nuclear fuel (that stuff to power vehicles) instead of nuclear fuel cells... and they say that's correct... anyways...)

Now my nuclear reactors will need 5x to 10x as many pipes, as it won't be an option anymore to consolidate pipes for that reason.

That's a huge step backwards and totally uncalled for, I really hope that's just an oversight and will be reverted before the release!

You missed a bit where it states that steam expands now so you use 1 water to make 10 steam. So overall use of water for reactor stays the same.

You missed the point where you still need to transport the steam.

Yes I was referring to the steam, not the water, water is trivial in most situations where you did not inconvenience yourself on purpose,
and with the coming update and ways to do reverse-landfills, you won't even need a natural lake as basis to build reactors where every line of heat exchangers has its offshore pump plugged right into them, no piping at all.

So thanks for making me clear this part as well:
- any halfway sophisticated reactor will have the same amount of offshore pumps as before
- any larger reactor will have 5-10x more pipes for transporting the steam to the turbines, IF you want steam storage over heat storage and/or you do not want your 10gw reactor to look like an ugly square brick