Friday Facts #427 - Combat Balancing & Space Age LAN

[Byrnorthil]

Shotguns, Cannon shells, rockets, and combat robots have been needing a bump for ages, especially shotguns. Glad to see personal lasers nerfed as well. Thanks for this.

I never did like evolution factor. I wish evolution factor was removed and pollution used instead.

I also think spawners absorb too much pollution by default, and the diffusion ratio is slightly too slow. These cause a situation where only biters in the first ring of nests around your base attack you. And even if you intentionally make rediculous amounts of pollution, it doesn't spread beyond maybe the first one or two ring of nests.

Pretty sure it's working as intended? The number of biters spawned is directly tied to the amount of pollution absorbed; it doesn't matter whether the pollution is absorbed by 1 nest or 10. (Biter bases "spend" pollution to summon biters: https://wiki.factorio.com/Pollution). If spawners absorbed less pollution that'd be strictly better for the player, as each chunk pollution travels also absorbs pollution, but without any biters.

Pollution is part of the evolution factor, just not the main one (in most cases).

[killer rock]

personal i like the rocks/rubble but understand why some will not. its messed up many of my train routes. I say make it option when setting up maps probably default on/off with a persistent switch. i think with the new train routing it should be easier to deal with. You know like if train route interrupt train 0< stone go here, then continue with route.

second i think the bitter/spitter spawners should do more then just hp-up as they level there spawners should Evolve as the enemy does.


keep up the good work. i look forward to the new build.trying my hardest to finish space exploration for this. lol can't wait.

[GregoriusT]

No flamethrower nerf?

Even if Flamethrower Turrets had their damage divided by 10, they would still be the most overpowered weapon in the dang Game.

[BeBoxer]

The FFF isn't clear to me. Are the combat balancing changes only in the expansion? Or will they be in the base game as well? In the expansion I trust that having played it the devs know that the PLD changes are needed in the expansion since you can have legendary power armor filled with legendary PLDs and clearing out territory probably requires nothing more than simply walking through it. But if the PLD changes are going into the base game which won't have all the offsetting improvements, then that seems problematic. It would be nice to get clarity about that.

[Rebmes]

So jelly ^^ but good luck and have fun out there folks!

[KuuLightwing]

Seeing all the negative feedback about the PLD nerf I feel like I need to weigh in on the opposite side. I was not at all expecting such a massive nerf, but I think it's an absolutely necessary change that opens up a lot more freedom for optimal play. Consider the following:

- PLDs require zero resources to fire. I've seen posts on here and Reddit complaining "resource-agnostic combat is dead" and I'm thinking... yeah it should be? Combat should require a working production line just like every other aspect of the game, but in 1.1 it's entirely possible, dare I say even optimal to kill everything for free.
- PLDs are automatic, meaning they require zero brainpower to use. I had a lapse in judgment during the fight and got myself flanked like an idiot? Lmao, no I didn't, PLD took care of it for me before I even registered it.
- Unlike every handheld weapon in the game, PLDs confer zero movement speed penalty. To be perfectly honest, players losing movement control not only from acid but also their own attacks is the part about Factorio combat I dislike the most, by far. Before seeing the Pentapod post, I was rather hoping offensive combat was going to get a more substantial makeover (base defense is fine as is, flamer cheese aside). But, I can see limited movement is a core part of the combat design and the Pentapod post only further cemented it, so we've gotta learn to play around it. Except, PLDs completely ignore the movement penalty for attacking. Risk? Tactical positioning? What's that? Kiting go brrrr.
- Most importantly however, PLDs are usable in vehicles, and in vehicles, there is zero tradeoff to filling your entire grid with them (minus batteries). The tank is already extremely powerful without help, but when you can slap 9 lasers (in only mk I power armor...) on top, well...

Notice the common theme? PLDs have zero cost to using them. Free is strong, but more importantly, free doesn't require a careful build, tactical planning, or moment-to-moment skill to make it work. This wouldn't be a terrible problem if PLDs were a purely defensive item like energy shields are, but they have the capability to out-DPS the entire rest of your kit on top of all that. With just the chemical science (damage and speed 1-4) necessary to unlock it, a lot of combat becomes "I walk/drive into the biters and they all die", i.e., boring. I just cleared out a bunch of nests at that tech level, the one PLD i was wearing was enough to keep enemies off my back and allow me to focus down the worm+nests, I could have been wearing between 3-5 more, but I didn't, because I wanted to have to try.

I'm hoping to see some more diverse strategies/playstyles get used and maybe even become optimal, at least in mid-game. Make no mistake, PLDs are still going to be the standard in endgame on account of being free and brainless (especially with quality), but I think the time in which combat requires thought and skill is going to be extended significantly by the nerf. Glad to see shotgun buff, though I'm not sure whether it also applies to the piercing shells? Would still like to see a turret deployment time implemented to make pocket turrets less optimal, but I'm not complaining, and I'm looking forward to the Space Age experience very much.

When you need to clear lots and lots of nests, requiring zero brainpower to use is probably a good thing. I just need land and resources so I can go back to building the base. Factorio, especially at the endgame isn't some riveting combat simulator, it's not even an RTS.

I think that endgame combat should be fairly effortless because nest density goes way up, and amount of land you need also increases drastically. If it requires too much effort, it really just gets in a way of building whatever project you need rather than helping your game experience.

Quite frankly current PLD is not even the best solution for that, as it's still pretty "hands-on" way of clearing nests, unless you build a massive spider army, but at that point I'm not even sure it should be considered that "OP", as it's quite an investment.

[Ogro]

- I did not know PLD was worth it and nerver used it =[
- Tried to use combat robots but found them weak and complicated

I tried to not disable enemies, but this new nest health might be the last drop. Maybe I am slow or something, but I find the expansion rate and the spawning rate absurd.
- So much time and trouble to clean a nest that reappears so quickly. I actually disable expansion now, so I can feel some accomplishment was done when I destroy an enemy base, instead of just wasting time and resources.
- Battling nest is boring and not difficult as some have said. Most dangerous thing is a stupid obstacle in the ground that slows you down. I found redemption on how weak the nests were, since they spawn rate is something surreal. They create the entire army in seconds. So the only way to win was to target the nests and then worry about killing the enemies. Which seems will get less fun and satisfying.
- Again, maybe it is just me, but I find myself researching new weapons/vehicles to survive, and they never seem to be strong, just barely to avoid ultra quick death.
- I am afraid to say my best combat system now, because I don't want it getting nerfed LOL, but since this health nest thing will drag it down already I will share: Found the quickest, less dangerous, way to clean base is a spider-tron with mixed missiles not in auto mode (since they focus enemies instead of nests). Ignore enemies, keep the mouse on the nests and at the same time keep a stack of red grenades too, so you are target firing the spider-tron at same time you are deploying grenades.

All in all I always found combat in this game to be stressing, unethical, not interesting, similar to base defense games that I hate, don't like evolving mechanics (would prefer all difficult levels to be always there, and you avoid what you can't deal with, and enjoy when weak is weak now because you growth).
I dreamed of digging canals...

[Camusensei]

Also worried about the PLD changes.I have had to clear thousands of nests containing at least 300 spawners, and even with mods allowing me more than 100 PLD in the armor, it always takes forever. You are talking about multiplying the amount of PLD by 4 to get the same efficency back (base efficiency + laser resistance buff).
Surely there should be some compensation, like increasing the amount of damage upgrade percent one gets from the research?

[Ranakastrasz]

No flamethrower nerf?

Even if Flamethrower Turrets had their damage divided by 10, they would still be the most overpowered weapon in the dang Game.

Yep
They use little in the way of fuel, making them cheap, their damage is massive, they splash, and the only real tradeoff is the damage being delayed.

[mmmPI]

I like the removal of the stone poop when rocks are destroyed, but it also occurred when mining rocks with inventory full or when you deconstruct with robots. I guess that leaves still some room for some rock sabotage ? =)

Did the little stone poops make the game fun? Is rock droppings a core part of the game design? Does removing them betray the vision of what we want the game to become? These are the questions that keep me up at night.

The important questions are often unanswered somehow.

The combat change don't really change anything for me, it's more of a gauge thing usually, try something change or upgrade if it doesn't work. My games have usually very different pace and i don't have clear picture of which tech is needed or "weaker" or "different" before i try the particular moment i need to fight.

Pretty sure the LAN party takes place on the last planet, the one that was not yet revealed !

[xttweaponttx]

Shoot, looks like I'm not the only one worried about the PLD balance shift since this post was a short one, hopefully we'll hear more about the thought process behind the change from ya'll in the next update! I wonder if maybe the quality level makes a crazy difference, or if higher level armor has more slots or something?

6.4 weeks till space!!

[Jarin]

Individually, the PLD nerf, and the spawner buff both seem... not-terrible. But I'm very worried about them being combined. That comes out to spawners taking thirty (30!) times the effort to kill with lasers. Basically making them completely useless for the job. Is that the intent? I guess the only mid-lategame base clearing option is atomic firepower now.

[skuggg]

I think the PLD nerf isn't a bad move with the new quality system in mind. Now, complaints outside of those who would use the quality system I can see as being valid to a point, but pre-nerf a full set of PLD at legendary quality would be an unstoppable killing force, to the point of trivializing combat. I think outside of those who have the DLC or those who will even use the quality system though, 66% might be a bit harsh for a nerf but I guess it's all gonna come down to what exactly is being added with and without the DLC. I think for sure with the buffs that came through on other weapons we will at least be forced to explore other combat options we normally ignore for what has so far been the status quo, which isn't really a bad thing. Who here can honestly say they've really used the combat drones or the poison capsules? I welcome change to a game I've dumped over 1000 hours into, especially when its changes to items I've never used in that time due to them being too weak.

[ataaron]

The stark contrast between the imposing designer desktops and the absolute spaghetti cable management hidden below somehow catches the essence of Factorio pretty well.

[Davolution]

Since devs removed the Alien spheres that were required for purple science, I don't play anymore with enemies ON.
This is an automation, factory game, and all the logistics and ressources management is was make is fun for me, not the combat.

Killing tediously ennemies bases after bases that bring nothing to my progression, technologies is not what I find enjoyable... more like a chore.
With all the nerfing, this give me even more reasons to leave it to OFF. Since when becoming overpower in late game is considered wrong?

If devs doesn't add settings in the map creation game to decide the Nerfing level, I wounld't be surprise to see on Day 1 a mod that will "un-nerf" these changes.

[porcupine]

What if personal lasers (and/or lasers in general) did more damage/damage ramped up the longer they were focused on a target?

I mean from a physics standpoint, it makes sense, you're heating up, weakening, and melting a path through 'em.

[AileTheAlien]

With the nerf to personal lasers, I think the recipe should be changed. I'm not paying a full laser turret's resources, time and module space if the dominant defensive strategy still involves a wall of turrets, because that still encourages turret-creep. The perimeter of your base is a linear growth, but the area for your mines and factory is area (squared) growth. As others have noted earlier, deploying robots in the middle of battle is still cumbersome, even with the bigger deployment size. Maybe the non-stationary ones could have an auto-deploy checkmark, for when you go into battle? If I'm clicking a bunch just to go into battle turret-creep still feels like equal clicks and hassle.

[IgorV]

Wow, where is that awesome LAN room?

This is Prague, Czech Republic. Specifically in Prague 4, one interesting center. Different events take place there. I probably won't write more precisely, I don't think uninvited people are welcome there.

[Tertius]

- PLDs require zero resources to fire. I've seen posts on here and Reddit complaining "resource-agnostic combat is dead" and I'm thinking... yeah it should be? Combat should require a working production line just like every other aspect of the game, but in 1.1 it's entirely possible, dare I say even optimal to kill everything for free.
- PLDs are automatic, meaning they require zero brainpower to use. I had a lapse in judgment during the fight and got myself flanked like an idiot? Lmao, no I didn't, PLD took care of it for me before I even registered it.

But this is exactly what I want. I want to invest zero brainpower, I just want to shoot enemies for the lulz. For entertainment, because shooting down stuff this way is relaxing and a nice change to the brainwork required for the real Factorio, the base building. I don't see enemies as challenge - they're entertainment. And they are obstacles you need to clean out, like rocks and cliffs and water. The game would be too bland without such things.

If the nerf means it's more tedious to clean out the enemies, I will just turn them off silently. Or may be install some mod that restores original laser fire power. Challenge denied. If I want to have a fighting challenge, I choose some shooter game, but not Factorio.

For me, Factorio is about automating. The way how Factorio automates fighting (e. g. turrets) is not evolved enough to contribute to interesting gameplay. It lacks depth. It's not the core competence of the Factorio devs to design good fighting. For example, the user controls for manually operated weapons are atrocious. If you're in a hurry, the risk of shooting your own foot off is higher than the probability to hit an enemy. So it's in my opinion not a serious part of it. It just has entertainment level for the occasional shootout.

I'm sure many people, probably even the devs, have a different opinion about that, but it's how I personally see this.
However, I don't complain about the combat balancing, since I'm not forced to follow and other people might even enjoy it. It's just that I don't like it and will circumvent it, if it reduces my gaming fun.

[Jerrybubbles]

I'm completely fine with the nerf if they have some other new combat toys to play with, we'll see.
Also PLD enjoyers can probably put some legendary PLD into a legendary power armor and get decent results.