Version 0.17.60

[JCav]

Just because they didn't implement YOUR particular suggestion, does not mean that they don't listen, or don't care, or were just going to do what they were always going to do anyways.

Obviously they did not find arguments against this change compelling enough to agree with them. They've brought Factorio this far - maybe cut them some slack and presume they (still) know what they're doing and stop berating them.

Thank you Wube for what you've given us.

[Schallfalke]

I don't get why you guys are so aggressive.

I didn't even express any stance (agree or oppose) on the new basic oil processing recipe. (In fact this week I was spending time on other stuff, don't even have time to look into this.) I am still neutral to this recipe, till this point.

I was just proposing an additional way that devs can try with "very" controversial features, hoping this may prevent such tension between devs and players in the future.
They can just launch other features as usual in the experimental releases.

Was my post so difficult to understand, and easily trigger you guys?

[mtfreitasf]

Dear all,

I have been following this discussion for the last couple of weeks and have some considerations (with the assumption that I have been playing the game for the last 3 months so I am not a newbie but not an expert also):

- Factorio is a mix of complex game if you want to run an efficient factory with a more leisure game if you want to go easier. In my opinion, this mix but skewed to the complex side is the charm and beauty of the game.
- The complexity is derived from other factors such as fine tuning production ratios, integration and maximization of bigger concepts such as energy, production, pollution (and enemies) and an ever increasing need for modules and science and overall factory management than from the tech tree itself.
- Although I haven't tested the new modifications, for me the old oil tech tree and evolution wasn't an issue per se, so simplifying it may remove some of the beauty of the game (and considering the clamor around this issue, that is what people think will be happening).

I just hope the devs doesn't apply shortcuts to the game and I have some suggestions around this issue:

- One of the comments suggested the use of mods by the devs before inserting a controversial feature in the vanilla game. I found this interesting.
- Maybe a new option inside the settings could allow players to choose between a simplified and an expert tech tree.
- Maybe when the player chooses the expensive tech tree automatically will be chose the expert tech tree.

I hope I have contributed to the discussion and I'll wait a little bit more to update the game not wanting to ruin my experience.

Best regards and congratulations for the awesome game.

Marcos

[Astrella]

I don't get why you guys are so aggressive.

I didn't even express any stance (agree or oppose) on the new basic oil processing recipe. (In fact this week I was spending time on other stuff, don't even have time to look into this.) I am still neutral to this recipe, till this point.

I was just proposing an additional way that devs can try with "very" controversial features, hoping this may prevent such tension between devs and players in the future.
They can just launch other features as usual in the experimental releases.

Was my post so difficult to understand, and easily trigger you guys?

I mean, I wasn't "triggered", I just think it's amusing that people have like, gotten a bit too used to just treating the experimental releases as just standard releases. An experimental branch is meant to try out stuff like this. And yeah, it sucks if your factory stops working but consistency is what stable is for.

[FuryoftheStars]

I don't get why you guys are so aggressive.

I didn't even express any stance (agree or oppose) on the new basic oil processing recipe. (In fact this week I was spending time on other stuff, don't even have time to look into this.) I am still neutral to this recipe, till this point.

I was just proposing an additional way that devs can try with "very" controversial features, hoping this may prevent such tension between devs and players in the future.
They can just launch other features as usual in the experimental releases.

Was my post so difficult to understand, and easily trigger you guys?

I mean, I wasn't "triggered", I just think it's amusing that people have like, gotten a bit too used to just treating the experimental releases as just standard releases. An experimental branch is meant to try out stuff like this. And yeah, it sucks if your factory stops working but consistency is what stable is for.

Well, it’s not like the devs haven’t used mods before to try out different features with the community. Some have even released mods that undo official changes: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Dont_lose ... ngredients

[zenos14]

Well, took a peek at the changes in game for a bit, but I won't have time to really play around with them till the day after tomorrow, but after just a surface glance these changes are just as disappointing as I expected them to be, and I don't think this is going to help, at most delay the frustration new players would have, at worst add an extra layer when they try to figure out why pipes aren't working on top of the oil issues this was supposed to fix.

But I'll admit I'm going to have to give it more time before I can come to a conclusion, I will say though, that looking back to my own first experiences with oil and how cracking ratios were such a wall for me compared to literally anything and everything else in oil (especially early stuff like BOP), I have a feeling this fix is only going to make things far worse for new players when they find themselves having to deal with cracking, balancing multiple liquids, AND an oil setup that'll probably have getting a stream of "Can't mix fluids" messages when they try to set a refinery to use AOP

If the devs MUST insist on keeping this change, I encourage them to implement something better to discourage the player from placing pipes along the "reserved" inputs, the blue arrows are good, but I know from experience, if nothing's coming out of it or preventing the player from placing a pipe along it, that's going to be an added source of frustration when they find themselves having to learn how to set up pipes for AOP

Additionally, I'm worried about the delay of bots, especially if they're worried about tediousness, getting frustrated with having to mass deconstruct, and mass rebuild stuff by hand when I discovered better designs was a far, far larger source of frustration and annoyance when I started playing factorio/before I taught my self better designs (and more importantly, to rush bots) than anything in oil ever was for me, I would suggest them placing construction bots earlier than they are now, at least as a green tech rather than a blue one as just having them to automate deconstruction and rebuilding around the time the player starts building big is a major boon to keep the player from getting frustrated

[Arcitos]

Reading the patchnotes was a punch in the gutts for me.

I just hope for now, that we (the ones against the change) eventually will be able to comprehend Wube's grand schemes that made it inevitable and mandatory to rush this extremely controversial change to implementation and that the greater good they want to achieve is actually real and worth the widespread disappointment this change caused. I really hope that.

After this change, Factorio is missing an important puzzle. I think it's time to add a new challenge. Ok, Wube? I'm in desperate need of a new, cool idea for an expanded and improved gameplay to distract me from the phantom pain I feel when I look at these boring, linear BOP refinery setups. Please, add something new, something cool.

[AngledLuffa]

Having the basic tech be superior to higher tech for late game big bases makes little sence, but I guess it's what you guys wanted.

Not to mention that Rocket Fuel taking light oil now has to be one of the most ridiculous and knee jerk changes I've ever seen to the game.

Surely you see that these two statements are contradictory, right? You need massive piles of rocket fuel in a megabase, and the only way to get that now is AOP.

[lovewyrm]

Y'all trollin', or something?
Bots behind another paywall?

When in reality they should be available as soon as possible?
Difficulty? Bro. Broseph. Brotato. Brontosaurus. This is not about difficulty, it's about:
R.
S.
I.

Figuring out bots is less painful than aidscancercarpalarthritis of the extremities.
If it were up to me the player would start with a single free bot that doesn't require any power and builds things slowly unless enemies are around.
I hate clicking THAT much. Clicking is not gameplay, no matter what some game developers think. Clicks in factorio are not gameplay, it's placement of things that generate gameplay.
Please, think of the smelting columns. Think of the children. Starving people in Arcansas could be eating my wrists and index finger.
It hurts. It hurts. It hurts. It hurts. It hurts. It hurts. It hurts. It hurts.

Katherine of Sky is hurt, too. Everyone will be hurt. You're killing us, Wube. You're destroying us. Every needless click we have to do is contributing to climate change.
You're broiling us, Wube. You're making us sweaty, Wube. It was 42C the other day, Wube. All because you make us click click click click click for nothing.
And now, now you're making it even worse.
Why? Why Wube? Why are you so cruel? So unironically, scientifically provable cruel? Why do you stress our limbs so we can use your "automation game"?

Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?
Why, dude? Why. Why you doin' this? Why you doin' me dirty like that? Why you gotta be like that? What's wrong? Is it a cry for help? Do you hurt people to make your own pain go away?
It doesn't have to be like this. You don't have to be like this, Wube. You can change. You can be loved again. You are in your prime still.

Bots can come sooner, eventually. You can do it. You have it in you. I believe in you. The light inside you is not yet gone. It wavers, it flickers, it's trying to escape but you can still keep it burning within you.

You can make the bots come sooner. You can make everything right. Heal the wounds. Soothe the pain.
Retain humanity. Heal again.

[xfir01]

Additionally, I'm worried about the delay of bots

What delay?

Construction bots require:

Roboport

• Advanced Circuit

• gears

• steel

Construction Bot

• Battery
  
  • Sulfur + water
  • Iron
  • Copper

• Electric Engine
  
  • Engine
  • Electronic Circuit

• Electronic Circuit

• Steel

It is harder to make robots than blue science, and as long as roboports require Advanced Circuits it always will be. And now with this change you literally make all the components for blue science while making construction robots.

[mmmPI]

Clicks in factorio are not gameplay, it's placement of things that generate gameplay.

I do regret the fact that construction bots are placed behind blue science (again) as when i started the game.

But this argument is counterproductive to my opinion, this basically means you prefer watching robots do a blueprint you got from internet/made once a few years ago when you started than play the game.

If you think placement of things generate gameplay, then robots are good when you copy/paste few parts here and there when you fiddle around doing one small build. This spares you the annoyance of switching materials lots of time.

It's different than using robots to import your previous factory little by little and watch it unfold for the 10th or 20th time.

Placement of things as designing stuff : yes , placement of things as placing blueprint like they are buildings in a tycoon game : meh.

If you use robots to copy paste gigantic array of furnaces, well maybe setting up the new (too) simple refinery that allow you to make the (simpler) blue science is for a good thing for you then .

Else you'd make a (simpler) starter base, like everyone i guess to get the first robots going, and you'd use those first robots for the scaling.

The changes (that i dislike) are still coherent in that regard to my opinion. So i'd prefer pointing out the size / complexity / time required to make those robots in the starter base than just complain they are behind blue science, which if you account for the other massive complain of "dumbing-down" doesn't means the robots will arrive necessary later in a game if you try to rush them.

Bots behind another paywall?

Also i laugh at this one, probably because i got a free copy of the 0.17 DLC lol, how much you had to pay for the in-game transaction to get faster robots ? maybe you can get them for cheaper if you farm a lot with the paying option for double crafting speed or wait for haloween and the sales on the new skin for the weapons

[777]

The changes to BOP seem great to me. I have more than one friend who just couldn't be arsed to deal with oil. They resorted to playing Bob's full blown first, bc it delayed the fluid madness that they just, perhaps after getting burned by the complexity jump on first sight, had no interest to deal with. One such friend has over 100 hours played, but I think only muddled some ways through oil processing in any capacity once.

One fluid in, one fluid out seems like something I might be able to sell these people to come and take a second look.

Also, the complaints that BOP being more efficient than AOP for a UPS concerned megabase simply sound absurd. A) You are optimizing for a meta-property. It does not exist in game, so there is no conflict with in-game "advanced" recipes not satisfying it. B) You just got a big present: a tool to (potentially) massively reduce UPS.
So the salt is for....?

[xfir01]

Surely you see that these two statements are contradictory, right? You need massive piles of rocket fuel in a megabase, and the only way to get that now is AOP.

Coal liquefaction will probably be preferred.

[IronCartographer]

After this change, Factorio is missing an important puzzle. I think it's time to add a new challenge.

The challenge remains, in the form of Advanced oil processing. Simplified Basic oil just enables blue science to be automated reliably before dealing with the complications of everything it unlocks (including said later oil puzzle).

Then there's coal liquefaction, which is even more complex--though quite possibly less necessary, now that Advanced gives more Heavy...

Surely you see that these two statements are contradictory, right? You need massive piles of rocket fuel in a megabase, and the only way to get that now is AOP.

Whether or not his statements are contradictory depends on the extent to which it may be more UPS-efficient to generate solid fuel from pure gas (BOP) rather than using AOP. In a way, however, the ratios/balancing between using AOP and Basic will itself be an interesting design challenge--even if the Basic section is simple in layout, and only useful to the extent the other fractions will not be missed.

[zenos14]

It is harder to make robots than blue science, and as long as roboports require Advanced Circuits it always will be. And now with this change you literally make all the components for blue science while making construction robots.

No it's not? I mean, maybe we play differently but I've always made bots my highest priority each playthrough, to the point I usually have them before I have any sort of automated production of blue science or even a "proper" oil set up in place. So while you might be correct for how you play, I really don't see how them requiring red circuits would require them to be a blue science product. In fact, I'm in the camp that before the change they were already a bit past the very edge of where I'd place them if it was up to me, and any further delay is the opposite of fun, at least as far as getting Construction bots are concerned, just the hint that they're being delayed is a very bad thing in my book.

Now, as I said in my post, I'll need time to start a new playthrough to judge, but this feels like an extra unnecessary layer to get them. I hate having to do any sort of deconstruction/reconstruction or experimentation in design beyond small scale designs without them, I've mentioned it mostly in the FF 305 thread, but the biggest wall for me when I got started playing factorio was how tedious constructing stuff/experimenting with designs by hand gets when your factory has grown to a certain point not anything to do with oil (except cracking, that took a bit for me to get), but "You can make them while making blue science cause their harder" is a near non sequitur to me because I usually have a hundred or so con bots and a roboport or two before I even start on it, but the devs saying "We made getting this vital thing take longer to get" isn't a plus in my opinion


Edit: Cause this post came in while I was typing

It's different than using robots to import your previous factory little by little and watch it unfold for the 10th or 20th time.

Placement of things as designing stuff : yes , placement of things as placing blueprint like they are buildings in a tycoon game : meh.

Can't speak for others, but I regularly go back and clear out my library of blueprints, I like bots cause it lets me screw around with trying different designs AND (and this is the number 1 reason I want bots earlier), with them I can easily clear out failed designs and start working on another one, I could care less about their ability to build stuff, I just want them for their ability to deconstruct stuff, give me that in green science and 99% of my displeasure of them being a blue science tech is gone

[MrBadDragon]

Massively disappointed by the oil change. This "fluids for dummies" mechanic should be confined to the NPE campaign only, where all the rest of the baby toys are.

I think you should actually try it before you bag it. If you want you can still go the old way, however everything I have seen and experienced leads me to believe that these are a big step up.

[lovewyrm]

But this argument is counterproductive to my opinion, this basically means you prefer watching robots do a blueprint you got from internet/made once a few years ago when you started than play the game.

If you think placement of things generate gameplay, then robots are good when you copy/paste few parts here and there when you fiddle around doing one small build. This spares you the annoyance of switching materials lots of time.

While I do enjoy watching robots do my bidding, I don't think a new player will be spoiled by it, after all, unless they are, as you correctly put it, just copy pasting internet blueprints.
If they do that, then that dampens the self exploration a bit (but at the same time one could just painstakingly copy it by hand...via -shudders- clicking ).
If they don't do that, then in order for the new player to have a blueprint of their own, they first have to lay down a design to begin with.

In other words, even if bots were there from the first second, without a blueprint in the book, the first iteration of something would have to be placed by hand. So the self design process won't be gone.

And yeah, I do firmly believe that clicking is not the gameplay in factorio, it's just input, it's telling the game your wish. Maybe it feels more interactive on a mental level to clutch that mouse button and drag it around with staccatos of little clicks inbetween, but it still just "paints tiles".
If you could control factorio with your mind and your hands, would you want to click, or would you just want to will your plans into action via thought?

You gain no gameplay advantage from clicks. They're not even that precise... you step on a belt and you slip, or there's a rock and you get displaced, etc.

It has no real payback aside from possibly some initial mental reward of "I am questing and getting by with my meager resources", but at the same time, a little robot companion could be fun, too.
Anyway, I just don't see the value in clicks when the game already has the superior tile paint mode. Blueprints and bots. No need to strain those tendons, it adds up. It really does, and it's not even a good range of motion, it's repetitive and awkward and damages regardless of age, the damage is just more mitigated by youth.

Repetition should be easy from the start in "The ultimate automation game". When I first started playing, 90% blind, I still built long stretches of furnaces.
Even in my utter noob state I placed repetitions of something that worked, it was inefficient and spaghetteriffic to the extreme, but it was still, even on a small scale, a repetition of a simple pattern.

The biggeset reward from factorio, I think, is actually (ironically, somewhat) similar to an idler/clicker game. Its nice when you get more and more and MORE and MORE and bigger and BIGGER and BIGGER, seeing those assembler machines pump out stuff, seeing the ever growing river of plates.
Do you go "man those were some gooooood clicks, yessiree, good clicks I did there" in that situation, or do you lean back, with an approving expression, going.
Yes, yes...this is pretty good, beautiful, oh look at all that iron. Mhhh babbeh, that's some good inserter actuation action. Can't wait to see(!) more of that.

[mmmPI]

Edit: Cause this post came in while I was typing

It's different than using robots to import your previous factory little by little and watch it unfold for the 10th or 20th time.

Placement of things as designing stuff : yes , placement of things as placing blueprint like they are buildings in a tycoon game : meh.

Can't speak for others, but I regularly go back and clear out my library of blueprints, I like bots cause it lets me screw around with trying different designs AND (and this is the number 1 reason I want bots earlier), with them I can easily clear out failed designs and start working on another one, I could care less about their ability to build stuff, I just want them for their ability to deconstruct stuff, give me that in green science and 99% of my displeasure of them being a blue science tech is gone

Oh but what you need are not construction bots , but rather deconstruction bots, too bad that doesn't exist in vanilla (yet?) maybe they could tear down stuff rolling on the map like Klonan's bot https://mods.factorio.com/mod/Construction_Drones those could use barrel of crude for energy until you need to replace the barrel with a Light oil one so that they go faster and what not ?

They'd also get rid of trees and rock that's be nice

This case of use seems logical, you have big design to destroy, but you could also wait for robots to fiddle with big design or deconstruct older design. ( which gives a motivation to setup blue science this is how it was when i started and it pushed me/felt rewarding to setup oil for them.)

If you could control factorio with your mind and your hands, would you want to click, or would you just want to will your plans into action via thought?

Repetition should be easy from the start in "The ultimate automation game".

The biggeset reward from factorio, I think, is actually (ironically, somewhat) similar to an idler/clicker game. Its nice when you get more and more and MORE and MORE and bigger and BIGGER and BIGGER, seeing those assembler machines pump out stuff, seeing the ever growing river of plates.
Do you go "man those were some gooooood clicks, yessiree, good clicks I did there" in that situation, or do you lean back, with an approving expression, going.
Yes, yes...this is pretty good, beautiful, oh look at all that iron. Mhhh babbeh, that's some good inserter actuation action. Can't wait to see(!) more of that.

Those fail to explain me how you do not recognize yourself in the sentence, i was not only talking about new players.

But this argument is counterproductive to my opinion, this basically means you prefer watching robots do a blueprint you got from internet/made once a few years ago when you started than play the game.

I would prefer controling factorio with my mind ofc, that's why i hate clicking, i have stored what is in my mind once, i called it a blueprint, I seldom change my mind, because that's too much effort, and this allow me to always be sure i can indicate in 1 click, or 2 but that cost me , how i want my factory, but sometimes i paste the left part, before the right part. Best value per click ever. Then it's only satisfaction of watching robots doing everything and congratulating myself from the smart click !

( that's how i read it , why i think it's not really a good argument, which is sad because i think i'd miss early robots, and this is not helping getting them back early IMO,so i guess i have to start exercising a bit more to hopefully mitigate the damages in my tendons )


EDIT: Although your point "it doesn't affect much new player" is true. i have to admit. but it also means that those who will seek them, knows how to get them :/

[Antaios]

The problem is now more about the measurement of success. At the moment we all have just opinions about what the change will accomplish. Facts will be available only after some time and a statistically relevant number of new users had a chance to play it. But will Wube remember to check the numbers again then? Hopefully. Maybe we have to remind them in half a year or so.

The problem with this is actual new players, or rather, naive players, will enjoy the change simply because it's easier, less effort for more reward. And that is presuming they even know there was a change involved, that oil used to be more interesting.

It takes a while to realise that an easy game is a boring one (as anyone who has played a game with cheats enabled should be able to attest to), so initial feedback from these kinds of players will of course be positive - if only due to sheer laziness alone.

Additionally, I'm worried about the delay of bots

What delay?

what delay, you ask?
Someone in the 305 thread did the math, and it worked out that in order to research bots now it takes about ~450 construction bots worth of materials.
viewtopic.php?f=38&t=73684&start=160#p445569

The challenge remains, in the form of Advanced oil processing. Simplified Basic oil just enables blue science to be automated reliably before dealing with the complications of everything it unlocks (including said later oil puzzle).

People have said the part of oil that took the longest to 'get' is cracking.

Ultimately, this isn't about removing overall challenge it's about the flow of progression, and sorting out all three liquids fits better into the progression where it was. Not only does it separate sorting out cracking ratios from setting up oil, it puts the 'tedius' part of setting up oil in a section of the game that is full of other different fun things to do that can also benefit from light and heavy oil technologies.

Now what you have is the requirement to up your production to make purple science whilst at the same time essentially setting up oil for the first time, and setting up cracking for the first time, with nothing really to do in between but manage and continue monitoring any other side projects. Those projects are waning down at this point in their fun, and as the progression shifts towards purple science, outposts and defence start to get slightly monotonous rather than interesting. So you have tedium ontop of tedium ontop of the logistics for purple science production and advanced technologies, and now ontop of oil having to be properly setup, cracked, then shoved on max output from the get-go to start meeting the needs of advanced technologies and purple/yellow science.

And as an aside, the best way to help players out with figuring out their cracking ratios, is an easy way to tell how much they're making too much of - which is exactly what you do by allowing a tank to fill up before they start cracking.

[zenos14]

but you could also wait for robots to fiddle with big design or deconstruct older design. ( which gives a motivation to setup blue science this is how it was when i started and it pushed me/felt rewarding to setup oil for them.)

True, Looks at his 2168 hours of playtime on steam, I could do that, but I know from experience that's not very fun for me, and actually was the main reason I'd quit Factorio for long periods of time before I got good at beelining bots. Even to this day I'll still just stop playing for several days if I can't get bots quickly enough after starting a new map for whatever reason, I hate having to deconstruct large amounts of stuff by hand, it's infuriatingly tedious to me