PyRO Chains Analysis

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TwentyEighty
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PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:47 pm

I know this can be done in Helmod but it takes a long time for each chain, and I think it would help everyone if there was an easy reference for this rather than each person spending a ton of time in helmod (Which doesn't let you export to a new map, etc). It's also easier in some cases to just force a value in a spreadsheet rather than fighting helmod

Everything is normalized everything to 60 plates /s (4 yellow belts)

This also doesn't bother with modules or factories, etc. Just input/output with no prod modules

4/30/2019
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
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4/8/2019
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =989579757
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4/5/2019
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =989579757
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4/2/2019
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... nSnRO_Z81M
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3/31/2019
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1ua5diVoQg
Image
Last edited by TwentyEighty on Tue Apr 30, 2019 9:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:58 pm

Iron Summary
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =102772535
Depending on how long green science takes, probably should do tier 1.2, which is the first molten recipe. Then after green science, definitely upgrade to tier 2.1. You have to build sinkholes for the iron pulp 1 but it's worth it. After blue science, don't bother with the whole pulp chain just do iron-pulp-1 and unslimed iron, you get much better results. After yellow science, no changes required just start sintering for more iron.

Nickel Summary
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... Z81M#gid=0
Definitely do the tier 1 recipe right away. I'd probably skip the green science tier, not a ton of benefit. Up to you. On blue science, if you're going to upgrade, you must go all the way, do not do "some" of the tier3 chain or you'll never produce that much sulfuric acid. I'd probably just find more nickel patches and stay on tier 1 if possible, I mean that's a lot of biofilm. For yellow science, yeah go all the way at that time.

Chromium Summary
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =630831285
Conquered chrome. Look at the spreedsheet to see everything without it getting cut off. Didn't necessarily worry about gold for these to avoid complication, but notice how how chromite-solution is being used for each chain, that's where the gold comes from.

Pyanodon has smiled upon this metal. Good production after blue science, and if you ever get to yellow science you'll never worry about chromium again. BUT: The more chromium you make the more likely you'll fill up warehouses and get deadlocked trying to produce gold.

Probably you won't have to bother with chromium too much until green science, and then go staight to the full 2.2 chain. It's clear you need to upgrade after hitting blue science, and you'll have to balance gold production with how much chromium you want to produce. The full chains actually produce less gold-per-chromium-bar than if you stop at high-chromite
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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Fri Mar 29, 2019 6:36 pm

.....
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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:59 am

I'm not going to keep posting screenshots of the spreadsheet, since they'll just become outdated.

Zinc
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 2038307754
Red science Tier1 takes you from .1 plates/ore to .133 plates/ore at the cost of over 2 iron plates per zinc plate. Not likely to be useful alone
Green science Tier2 is objectively worse than Tier1
Blue science Tier3.1 (not molten) seems like an upgrade if you can spare the iron plates at .28 zinc plates/ore
If you do the molten chain, which has a lot of inputs like heavy oil, you can get .65 plates/ore, but use the concentrated zinc to molten recipe, only use the high-grade zinc recipe for the zinc-waste.
Yellow science is yellow science. If you ever get that far you get about 1.5 plates/ore and the inputs/plates are much less.

Update 4/2/2019: The inputs are much less, and the plates are the same. Check the spreadsheet for specifics.

Copper
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1733365360
I didn't include the .125 base recipes
Red science gets you up to .2 plates/ore with a bunch of stone, sounds good
Green science Tier2 is great for 2 reasons, it gets you up to .47 plates/ore, and gets you molten copper, which is invaluable for smelting directly to duralumin. This chain is almost required
Blue Science Tier3 is complex, at least in the spreadsheet. It gets you up to .63 plates/ore but at the cost of 17 acid solvent per plate aka 17 sulfuric acid + 34 aromatics + .85 nickel plates per copper plate. I would never do this over tier2 due to the inputs
Yellow science still only gets you to .83 plates/ore. It's a little better, but if you can find another copper patch i'd personally stay on tier 2
UPDATE 4/2/2019: The inputs are greatly reduced. Still not a lot of production but now you can do the chain without killing your factory.

Aluminum
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... d=13386114
Red science Tier1 gets you from .1 to .2 plates/ore. It costs a LOT of graphite and electricity. I'd wait for green science.
Green science Tier2 is a no-brainer. Gets you to .4 plates/ore, unlocks the direct duralumin recipe, costs a modest amount of phosphoric acid so you need to have that going first.
There are 3 Blue Science Tier3 recipes to choose from. They all involve alamac or nichrome directly. For example the first one requires 4 alamac / plates AKA .3 nickel plates per plate. Seems reasonable but this recipe only goes from .4 to .5 plates/ore so I still would probably skip it unless I couldn't find any aluminum. The highest Tier3 recipe gets you to .67 plate/ore
Yellow science is yellow science. If you get this far, you get to have 1.17 plates/ore and the nickel costs per plate aren't so bad.
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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:54 am

Lead
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1929150127
Lead, this one is really tough. It's the worst producing metal and it's also the most expensive to mine.
Red science gets you from .17 to .4 plates/ore.
Green science Tier2 is basically the same but lets you get silver instead of wasting grade-2-lead, and gets you a bit more lead, so sign me up. That's the best producting lead recipe it goes downhill from here
Molten Tier2 must be broken, it gets you much less lead than directly smelting the ore.
At blue science, smelting sl-01 to molten lead is also awful, gets you only .16 plates/ore and no silver.
Making high-grade-lead is also awful at .18 plats/ore. This gives you about 3x as much silver though, so this is really a silver recipe. However, this requires just an absolute ton of oleochemicals (nichrome) and z3-reagent (sulfuric, methanol, organic solvent) and cyanic acid. It might be cheaper to burn lead plates in a burner to make room for more silver, not sure it depends.
If you ever get to yellow science, lead is still bad at .39 plate/ore. Ton of silver with full sintering though.
So the recommendations are clear: Keep Tier2 to the endgame, but also do the full chain just for the silver if you need it and can produce that much oleochemicals, z3, and cyanic

UPDATE 4/2/2019: Same basic story. Green science is still the best (ignoring silver) until yellow science, but now yellow science exceeds it. And the inputs are reduced.

Tin
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =174571639
Tier 1 gets you from .1 to .17 plates/ore. Probably won't need this though.
Green science tier2 has two recipes, the molten one is longer but much better. Upgrade to .5 plates/ore here.
Blue science tier3 has two recipes, and neither of them are better than tier2 and of course cost a lot more. Objectively worse, unless you like sorting tailings dust. Skip.
If you get to yellow science you can get up to 1.2 plates/ore, so sure you can do the full chain at this time if you like.

Update 4/2/2019: Tin appears broken now :( Stay on Green science. The inputs are reduced but the plates are also greatly reduced past that.

Titanium
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1598478804
After doing all these in a spreadsheet, I've come to the conclusion that this is the most difficult chain in PyRO. I'm not sure how I would even achieve this in helmod. Has anyone accomplished this? The spreadsheet lets me be input-base in places.
Tier1 red science gets you from .1 to .19, but will you need this at this level? Probably not.
Green science Tier2 grade-4 recipe gets you to .24 plates/ore, so that makes sense. The molten recipe gets you to .36 but is costly with so much mibc for a modest gain. Personally wouldn't do it.
Blue science Tier3 has two main recipes, concentrated titanium and high-grade-titanium. The concentrated titanium recipe gets you to .5 and requires a lot of mibc but could be worth it, only if you need a lot of titanium. The super complicated one gets you to .56 plates/ore, but requires more inputs like grease and way more sulfuric acid, so it's probably not worth it. That's a bit of a shame because this one is probably fun to figure out.
At least you can go all the way if you get to yellow science, at 1.12 plates/ore.

Update 4/2/2019: The full blue science titanium chain now gets you a ton of titanium with no crazy inputs. Do it.

Nexelit
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =559750671
Tier0 starts at .2 plates/ore
Red science gets you to .33 for an easy improvement.
Green science gets you the molten recipe for .67 plates/ore, but it requires an astounding amount of sand and borax. There's no way you have this much sand laying around, so it's iron sticks for you. This requires WAY more borax than most molten recipes.
Blue science gets you to 1.33 plates/ore but look at those inputs. 100 syngas and 50 glycerol per plate, and 15 super-expensive armac-12 per plate, which thanks to oleochemicals is 2 nickel and 1.6 chrome plates per nex plate among other things. I can't imagine spending this much, probably better to drill more nexelit-ore.
If you get to yellow science you can be swimming in nexelit at 4.27 plates/ore where the per-plate costs go down in comparison

Glass
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... 1107533602
Tier0 starts at .17 glass/ore
Tier 1 can get you up to .4 glass/ore, at the cost of a lot of coal gas. You're stuck here until blue science.
Tier 3 is a clear winner at blue science. .7 glass/ore and the inputs aren't too expensive.
At yellow science you get get up to 1 glass/ore. The inputs aren't bad so definitely do this if you get this far.

Here's
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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Sun Mar 31, 2019 6:03 am

Here's a chart of the best recipe per science tier. It ignores the inputs to each tier, which you should absolutely NOT ignore since some of them get crazy expensive.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:09 am

Thanks a lot for doing this !
Could you please add some important intermediates like steel and duralumin ?

For instance steel goes from 10 iron plates in science 1 to 1.24 iron plates (equivalent) in science 2...)
(0.10 and 0.81 using your way of presentation.)

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by BlueTemplar » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:52 pm

TwentyEighty wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:47 pm
helmod (Which doesn't let you export to a new map, etc). It's also easier in some cases to just force a value in a spreadsheet rather than fighting helmod
Actually, it does allow you to export/import. But you have to do it one Production Line at a time...

Also, would you mind using a speadsheet not from the likes of Google ? (nor Microsoft...)

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:58 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:09 am
Thanks a lot for doing this !
Could you please add some important intermediates like steel and duralumin ?

For instance steel goes from 10 iron plates in science 1 to 1.24 iron plates (equivalent) in science 2...)
(0.10 and 0.81 using your way of presentation.)
Hmm not sure how to express that without copying iron and doing every permutation of aluminum and copper. The main point of these was to show at a glance which chains to make decisions on and concentrate on without spending your life in helmod. So you only have to helmod 1 recipe instead of 6. Duralumin and steel decisions are easy: molten all the way.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by pyanodon » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:40 pm

Great job so far.... i will take that to adjust and balance more some recipes. Thank you.
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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by Lurve » Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 pm

One element I think you're missing is the use of production modules. If the longer chains offer more places to shove prod mods, that can build to a pretty impressive multiplier even if the baseline production is modest.

The yields for lead, nickel and zinc jibe with my experience of them as bottlenecks, but I'm surprised how low green copper is. I've never had a copper plate shortage once my smelter gets going. I guess without a required fluid for mining, the per-ore efficiency just doesn't make a big difference.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm

Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 pm
One element I think you're missing is the use of production modules. If the longer chains offer more places to shove prod mods, that can build to a pretty impressive multiplier even if the baseline production is modest.
Actually Pyanodon removed a lot of the production module recipes that kingarthur added, almost immediately. I'm sure there were dozens of infinite loops. So there aren't really any places you can use prod modules in these chains. I do wish that there were a few left in, like the very first ore crushing or the molten recipes or the casting to plates where there wouldn't be loops, but they are also gone. We still got a quite a few useful ones though (Batteries! Fiberboard!)

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:44 pm

TwentyEighty wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm
Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 pm
One element I think you're missing is the use of production modules. If the longer chains offer more places to shove prod mods, that can build to a pretty impressive multiplier even if the baseline production is modest.
Actually Pyanodon removed a lot of the production module recipes that kingarthur added, almost immediately. I'm sure there were dozens of infinite loops. So there aren't really any places you can use prod modules in these chains. I do wish that there were a few left in, like the very first ore crushing or the molten recipes or the casting to plates where there wouldn't be loops, but they are also gone. We still got a quite a few useful ones though (Batteries! Fiberboard!)
nitrogen and helium they are sorta loops but require lots of gasoline and power and need constant autobalaning

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by Lurve » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:55 pm

TwentyEighty wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm
Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 pm
One element I think you're missing is the use of production modules. If the longer chains offer more places to shove prod mods, that can build to a pretty impressive multiplier even if the baseline production is modest.
Actually Pyanodon removed a lot of the production module recipes that kingarthur added, almost immediately. I'm sure there were dozens of infinite loops. So there aren't really any places you can use prod modules in these chains. I do wish that there were a few left in, like the very first ore crushing or the molten recipes or the casting to plates where there wouldn't be loops, but they are also gone. We still got a quite a few useful ones though (Batteries! Fiberboard!)
Well that's a shame. The fact that it doesn't shy away from making loops in the early game (power, slacked lime) was one of the things that attracted me to the mods to begin with. Guess the later recipes are just genuinely crummy.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:02 pm

Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:55 pm
TwentyEighty wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm
Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 pm
One element I think you're missing is the use of production modules. If the longer chains offer more places to shove prod mods, that can build to a pretty impressive multiplier even if the baseline production is modest.
Actually Pyanodon removed a lot of the production module recipes that kingarthur added, almost immediately. I'm sure there were dozens of infinite loops. So there aren't really any places you can use prod modules in these chains. I do wish that there were a few left in, like the very first ore crushing or the molten recipes or the casting to plates where there wouldn't be loops, but they are also gone. We still got a quite a few useful ones though (Batteries! Fiberboard!)
Well that's a shame. The fact that it doesn't shy away from making loops in the early game (power, slacked lime) was one of the things that attracted me to the mods to begin with. Guess the later recipes are just genuinely crummy.
what loops ??? besides wood with CO2 there arent that many loops

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by Lurve » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:27 pm

immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:02 pm
Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:55 pm
TwentyEighty wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm
Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 pm
One element I think you're missing is the use of production modules. If the longer chains offer more places to shove prod mods, that can build to a pretty impressive multiplier even if the baseline production is modest.
Actually Pyanodon removed a lot of the production module recipes that kingarthur added, almost immediately. I'm sure there were dozens of infinite loops. So there aren't really any places you can use prod modules in these chains. I do wish that there were a few left in, like the very first ore crushing or the molten recipes or the casting to plates where there wouldn't be loops, but they are also gone. We still got a quite a few useful ones though (Batteries! Fiberboard!)
Well that's a shame. The fact that it doesn't shy away from making loops in the early game (power, slacked lime) was one of the things that attracted me to the mods to begin with. Guess the later recipes are just genuinely crummy.
what loops ??? besides wood with CO2 there arent that many loops
Power's the big one that sets it apart. You can power your base with fawogae or wood as soon as you've got science 1. Angel's has a power loop as well, but it takes either finite resources you find while exploring or good luck in seed extraction (more exploring) to set up. It's a good idea, but not a given.

Also, when you start needing NaOH for stuff, slacked lime makes more limestone than what was used to make it, which if you've been getting your limestone as a byproduct from soil sorting, can really simplify acetylene production.

[ETA] While not infinite loops, lots of the ore processing steps are loopy. Precursor makes intermediate + waste, which makes stone + precursor.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by immortal_sniper1 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:38 pm

Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:27 pm
immortal_sniper1 wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:02 pm
Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:55 pm
TwentyEighty wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:36 pm
Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 2:56 pm
One element I think you're missing is the use of production modules. If the longer chains offer more places to shove prod mods, that can build to a pretty impressive multiplier even if the baseline production is modest.
Actually Pyanodon removed a lot of the production module recipes that kingarthur added, almost immediately. I'm sure there were dozens of infinite loops. So there aren't really any places you can use prod modules in these chains. I do wish that there were a few left in, like the very first ore crushing or the molten recipes or the casting to plates where there wouldn't be loops, but they are also gone. We still got a quite a few useful ones though (Batteries! Fiberboard!)
Well that's a shame. The fact that it doesn't shy away from making loops in the early game (power, slacked lime) was one of the things that attracted me to the mods to begin with. Guess the later recipes are just genuinely crummy.
what loops ??? besides wood with CO2 there arent that many loops
Power's the big one that sets it apart. You can power your base with fawogae or wood as soon as you've got science 1. Angel's has a power loop as well, but it takes either finite resources you find while exploring or good luck in seed extraction (more exploring) to set up. It's a good idea, but not a given.

Also, when you start needing NaOH for stuff, slacked lime makes more limestone than what was used to make it, which if you've been getting your limestone as a byproduct from soil sorting, can really simplify acetylene production.

[ETA] While not infinite loops, lots of the ore processing steps are loopy. Precursor makes intermediate + waste, which makes stone + precursor.
well that wood power loop is a loop but its big and not really that ups friendly

regarding NaOH it is limestone neutral unless you use productivity modules , and i dont remember acetylene requiring limestone or that as the dry gas chain?
[ETA] While not infinite loops, lots of the ore processing steps are loopy. Precursor makes intermediate + waste, which makes stone + precursor.
yes i know that and use that but its not always the precursor sometimes its a branching way to a component with an additional step in there

also looping is hard to balance since if you input 10 and get 1 back you need to make a infinite sume of 10*(1/10)^n not just substract the 1 from the 10
in the case of the nexelite chain these sums get peaty big

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:50 pm

Lurve wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:27 pm
Power's the big one that sets it apart. You can power your base with fawogae or wood as soon as you've got science 1. Angel's has a power loop as well, but it takes either finite resources you find while exploring or good luck in seed extraction (more exploring) to set up. It's a good idea, but not a given.
Well, those power loops are in a category of their own, considering that they end up doing basically the same job as vanilla's solar panels + accumulators, but (usually) earlier, more complex and requiring water...
They're also designed to be positive from the get go, without the need of any productivity modules...

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by Lurve » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:56 pm

BlueTemplar wrote:
Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:50 pm
They're also designed to be positive from the get go, without the need of any productivity modules...
Which is why it surprised me that productivity modules were disabled for doing it accidentally later on, is all.

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Re: PyRO Chains Analysis

Post by TwentyEighty » Wed Apr 03, 2019 3:28 am

Pyanodon just released an update and I'm on the case. I'll update the first post in this thread with links to the old and new, and I'll update the summary of each changed metal. What I've noticed:

1. Copper inputs for Tier3 and above:

Acid solvent input is reduced by a factor of 5
Acid solvent also got much cheaper, requiring a bit less sulfuric acid and much less hydrogen peroxide
Grease inputs is reduced by a factor of 5
Salt inputs reduced by 40%
Output is the same

So clearly it's much cheaper to move to tier 3 now.

2. Armac-12 got much cheaper. That benefits lead, iron, nexelit

3. Lead: Tier3.1 or the molten-lead-02 tier went from .16 plates/ore to .23 plates/ore. It uses less than half the z3 reagent (now ~11.6 z3 per plate) less than half the graphite and borax (now .35/plate each), way less oleochemicals and soda-ash (now 2.91/plate), about 20% or so of cyanic acid (now 4.36/plate). So the inputs are way less, you still only get .23 plates/ore.
"Tier 3.2", or the high-grade-lead chain, gets you to .36 plates/ore. It's very similar to the previous chain but uses less inputs, so definitely skip 3.1. It also gets you some silver, but from last patch reduced from .04 high-grade silver/lead-plate to .01 high-grade-silver/lead-plate. And then you get 50% more silver plates from last patch, but still, less silver overall. Silver is still hard to get on blue science, and lead is still better to get via the green science recipe.
Now, if you can get to yellow science, lead is upgraded to .92 plates/ore

4. Tin: Molten green science recipe 2.2 uses less graphite and less borax
MIBC got cheaper but now the first tier3 chain uses more of it. It uses less sand, much less filtration media, much less grease, much less soda ash, much less chromium, and much less organic solvent. It also gives you only .21 plates/ore so it's not usable.
Same sort of situation with the full 3.2 chain but it's .29 plates/ore
Even yellow science only gives you .5 now
All of this seems to require a huge amount of MIBC compared with titanium

5.Titanium: The first tier3 recipe now gives twice as much titanium, just in time for PyPH. Uses less limestone, aluminum, heavy oil, graphite, biofilm, sulfuric acid, MIBC. Highly recommended upgrade over green science now.
Actually, nevermind that and take a look at the full blue science Tier 3.2 chain. 3.34 plates/ore puts this metal on par with chromium. And the inputs are all reasonable. If you are able to design for the most complicated chain in PyRO you are richly rewarded with the pink metal.
Likewise, if you make it to yellow you get upgraded to 4.45 plates/ore

6. Zinc: Red science Tier1 got slightly better from .13 to .15 using slightly less iron
Green science Tier2 is now .25 plates/ore from .125. Heavy oil usage halved per plate but still pretty tough. The first Blue science Tier 3.1 recipe is increased from .286 to .429 plates/ore with no other changes.
The second Blue science Tier 3.2 recipe has a slight increase from .64 to .69, and uses less filtration media, NaOH and creosote, much less grease, aerofloat-15, cresylic-acid.
The high-grade-zinc recipe 3.3 managed to keep the exact same .49 ratio, with similar reduced inputs. Same with yellow science

7. Iron:
The first blue science recipe went down a little from 1.47 to 1.3, using less filtration-media. The full high-grade iron blue science recipe went down from .79 plates/ore to .53, using less filtration-media, but still a significant downgrade.
Likewise the yellow recipes went from 2.0 to 1.65 and 1.58 to 1.05


Phew that took longer than I thought

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