[0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Place to discuss the game balance, recipes, health, enemies mining etc.
Post Reply
gasika
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:45 pm
Contact:

[0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by gasika »

I had 15 levels of the laser turret damage researched and after loading the save game in 0.17.0 this got converted to level 8 energy weapons that effectively crippled my current laser turret setup (damage from base + 144 down to base + 60). This combined with the acid damage is making my current map much more difficult.

Is this part of a rebalance or a bug?

User avatar
Klonan
Factorio Staff
Factorio Staff
Posts: 4318
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:09 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by Klonan »

Can be considered a balancing issue

User avatar
bobingabout
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 7166
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by bobingabout »

I'd just write this off as one of those "things change in major versions" thing... just research it again.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

gasika
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:45 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by gasika »

Tldr: I think laser turret damage from 16 should be converted to the same level of energy weapons damage in 17.

Hm. Yes, but that's still 126000x6 lost research and with the amount of drop in firepower I don't survive on that map long enough to research it again.

In a few mins after loading 17 I lost 70 laser turrets and normally I would lose ~5/hr
I upped the energy weapons damage research to lvl 14 (the level I was at, I incorrectly said 15 in my opening post) and the laser turrets now have base + 156 damage which is higher than it was before. However with the new acid attack I still lost 5 turrets in one single attack vs the previous ~5/hr, so I think even with the higher damage the lasers are on par with how it worked before or even somewhat harder because of the new acid damage. I think because of this, it would be better to convert laser turret damage level to the same level of energy weapons damage on upgrading map from 16 to 17.

User avatar
invisus
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 222
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:33 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by invisus »

After loading my old base in 0.17 I was noticing that my turrets just weren't keeping up as they had been before the update. Although, I was too busy looking at all the new shiny things to dig into what was going on, I definitely noticed a major difference. I'll have to look to see if I'm hitting the same thing regarding the turret damage; seems likely, so thanks!

barbary
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:31 am
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by barbary »

Please could we reconsider this. I'm about to lose more than 90 million research. It will take me about a month IRL to redo it.

It just seems so harsh.

barbary
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:31 am
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by barbary »

bobingabout wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:20 am
I'd just write this off as one of those "things change in major versions" thing... just research it again.
It will take about 24 days IRL to research it again. So that's not that helpful.

User avatar
Ranakastrasz
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2062
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:05 am
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by Ranakastrasz »

The migration script should have taken the infinite techs for all the merged techs, and averaged them, or taken the highest, w.e.
Erring on the side of not screwing over old maps, unless something fundamentally changed, like boiler size or recipe changes.

I mean, get level of infinite tech for laser. Infinite tech for.... Actually, was anything else rolled into Energy weapons?
Either way, why was this not migrated?
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

User avatar
bobingabout
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 7166
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by bobingabout »

barbary wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:15 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:20 am
I'd just write this off as one of those "things change in major versions" thing... just research it again.
It will take about 24 days IRL to research it again. So that's not that helpful.
The issue there is, and I ran into this myself when trying to migrate some of my own researches, you can't migrate infinite tech, so beyond the very first one of an infinite research, all further research would be lost when technology changes.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

barbary
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:31 am
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by barbary »

bobingabout wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:31 pm
barbary wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:15 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:20 am
I'd just write this off as one of those "things change in major versions" thing... just research it again.
It will take about 24 days IRL to research it again. So that's not that helpful.
The issue there is, and I ran into this myself when trying to migrate some of my own researches, you can't migrate infinite tech, so beyond the very first one of an infinite research, all further research would be lost when technology changes.
Now that is both interesting and helpful. Thank you.

User avatar
Ranakastrasz
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2062
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:05 am
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by Ranakastrasz »

barbary wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:45 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:31 pm
The issue there is, and I ran into this myself when trying to migrate some of my own researches, you can't migrate infinite tech, so beyond the very first one of an infinite research, all further research would be lost when technology changes.
Now that is both interesting and helpful. Thank you.
Weird. I mean, can't you somehow get the number of infinite techs researched, and then apply that many researched? or is the API not there?
Is Level not something that works there?
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

User avatar
bobingabout
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 7166
Joined: Fri May 09, 2014 1:01 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by bobingabout »

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:53 pm
barbary wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:45 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:31 pm
The issue there is, and I ran into this myself when trying to migrate some of my own researches, you can't migrate infinite tech, so beyond the very first one of an infinite research, all further research would be lost when technology changes.
Now that is both interesting and helpful. Thank you.
Weird. I mean, can't you somehow get the number of infinite techs researched, and then apply that many researched? or is the API not there?
Is Level not something that works there?
you can't do it in LUA, you can't read an item that no longer exists, so you have to use the JSON.
JSON simply allows turn A into B
so you say... turn technology A into technology B, and it does that.... which only seems to work with technologies that are defined, additional levels are not.


I guess if it's really an issue a command in the console could unlock more? I dunno.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.
I also have a Patreon.

gasika
Manual Inserter
Manual Inserter
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2019 7:45 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by gasika »

Ranakastrasz wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:20 pm
I mean, get level of infinite tech for laser. Infinite tech for.... Actually, was anything else rolled into Energy weapons?
Either way, why was this not migrated?
I believe it's a merge of laser turret damage and combat bot damage

And to me, it does average out, as I had no combat bot damage researched, but that does not help with the lost research and the sudden difficulty change

User avatar
Ranakastrasz
Smart Inserter
Smart Inserter
Posts: 2062
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:05 am
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by Ranakastrasz »

bobingabout wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:32 pm
you can't do it in LUA, you can't read an item that no longer exists, so you have to use the JSON.
JSON simply allows turn A into B
so you say... turn technology A into technology B, and it does that.... which only seems to work with technologies that are defined, additional levels are not.


I guess if it's really an issue a command in the console could unlock more? I dunno.
That makes sense. It's been a while since I touched migration scripts..... Oh, that is the conversion one, that is more data than script, used to replace all objects of type X with type Y. As opposed to the lua script that... Uhm, was used for other stuff. And I guess at that point it already forgot about those techs.
Yea, I see the problem.
My Mods:
Modular Armor Revamp - V16
Large Chests - V16
Agent Orange - V16
Flare - V16
Easy Refineries - V16

barbary
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:31 am
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by barbary »

barbary wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:45 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:31 pm
barbary wrote:
Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:15 pm
bobingabout wrote:
Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:20 am
I'd just write this off as one of those "things change in major versions" thing... just research it again.
It will take about 24 days IRL to research it again. So that's not that helpful.
The issue there is, and I ran into this myself when trying to migrate some of my own researches, you can't migrate infinite tech, so beyond the very first one of an infinite research, all further research would be lost when technology changes.
Now that is both interesting and helpful. Thank you.
Clearly it is possible for them to do because they have done it for physical projectile damage. When I converted the map I got 17 the same as I had for gun turret damage.

barbary
Inserter
Inserter
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:31 am
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by barbary »

Klonan wrote:
Tue Feb 26, 2019 8:01 pm
Can be considered a balancing issue
Could be but shouldn't be. It's represents more than 50 million in research lost.

Also you haven't done this with projectile damage that stays at the same level I had 17 I still have 17 after upgrading. So why to lasers get this treatment.

Hiladdar
Fast Inserter
Fast Inserter
Posts: 187
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 6:47 pm
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by Hiladdar »

+1 on this,

I also concur, there should be some algorithm to convert completed research on a map in .16 into comparable levels in .17. This problem cropped up not just with laser turret damage, but also with mining proficiency, where I was sitting at 370 mining in mining and when the mining change came in my mining dropped down down to 0. Fortunatly, that map had a buffer of 200k of each science pack, and could push out 5k research, so I was able to priority and get the critical stuff done fairly fast. But I'm still trying to redo the mining, and about half way there now, after several gaming sessions.

There are several other changes between .16 to .17, that are not as well advertised, such as change to the assembly machine 2 recipe (it now needs steel plates), and changes to medium. power poles, big power poles, and train stops (they now need iron sticks). Mk2 equipment battery, shields and roboport (they now need LDS), lamps (they now need copper wire). There may be other changes, that do not require player attention to fix, or I have not yet identified.

Some of the changes, when a recipe no longer uses a resource, are not the issue, but when recipe changes, particularly when it now needs a resource it did not need before, becomes a rather high priority issue to identify and fix on a map that was converted from .16 to .17

Over time, I do not see this as a balance issue, we will just adjust to it, on new maps, modify our blueprints and be up and running in no time. But when it does happen it is extremely annoying and disheartening for a player.

Hiladdar

Koub
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 5489
Joined: Fri May 30, 2014 8:54 am
Contact:

Re: [0.17.0] Laser turret damage research lost after loading map in 17

Post by Koub »

Fixed damage technology migrations not migrating infinite technologies properly. (67731)
More specifically viewtopic.php?p=414154#p414154

Source : viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68030
Koub - Please consider English is not my native language.

Post Reply

Return to “Balancing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users