Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Place to discuss the game balance, recipes, health, enemies mining etc.
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Ohz
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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by Ohz » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:54 pm

I like the idea to reduce size of chests, pushing us to stock things on special 2x2 or 3x3 warehouses.
If you want to stock, it's gonna cost you ressources, space and logistic, because I personnally believe you're supposed to run your factory smoothly, with small chest for buffers...

That's also push us to make bigger trainstation with space to handle huge stock, so wider trainstation like a tile or 2 wide for a dock, more realistic too.

OpenTTD mod:
Image

And so you need special giant inserter to unload a train, if we make a wagon bigger capacity:
Image

And why not a way to stock things is to use wagons:

Image
I'm not english, sorry for my mistakes

Ailure
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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by Ailure » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:15 am

That is ton of waypoints in a row, not a station in openTTD. ;)

Either way, while I don't mind how much you can fit in a container, I find that oil barrels are a bit too effective at storing oil vs how much space they take in stacks. 100 barrels take up 10 slots within a container, while containing as much oil as a storage tank. I was almost a bit disappointed how a fresh but remote oil pumping station would barely fill up the train with filled barrels even when the train had it's orders delayed to the max of 200 seconds (yes I like to have a good excuse to use more than one wagon on my trains ;) ). Maybe it would be slightly better if they contained just 10 units of oil each (that's about how much a oil refinery consumes when refining), and would be max in stacks of five? (basically multiplying the required space by five) Even with this nerf, a level 2 assembly machine would empty barrels fast enough to feed 3.75 oil refineries (and most players don't seem to use more than two refineries from what I seen?).

Slayn25
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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by Slayn25 » Mon May 16, 2016 1:01 am

My first playthrough I appreciated the generous cargo sizes of the character, boxes, and the car because if they weren't so generous I think the gameplay would become a little punishing/grindy while you are still learning the ropes.

However, for my future playthroughs I think I would prefer smaller capacities for everything except the trains because:
1. I identify more with the "unrealistic = not immersive = not fun" crowd.
2. Now that I know how the game works, smaller inventories would be just another logistics problem to solve. The idea of smaller inventories for everything but the train actually makes a new playthrough sound more appealing to me as I would have to rely more on the car in the early/mid game. (I crafted the car when I got the tech but didn't find it useful until the late game when I had claimed a lot of land)

Maybe a hard/realistic mode would solve this? (more likely a mod I'm guessing)

The Dark Souls player in me says give the character 1 slot, containers 1 slot, cars 5 slots, and the train of course would be the santier's spear/dual-avelyn wielding havel monster.

Chao
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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by Chao » Fri May 20, 2016 2:26 pm

There's actually two issues to consider here I think, total items and variety of items. Trying to rebalance number of slots will have problems because as a player I don't really need thousands of plates but I do generally need a variety of items. Ditto for cars or tanks where I may well want a variety to start up a new base. Chests with a large number of slots are also great for emptying what im currently carrying.

So a suggestion here would be to not reduce the number of slots on chests and players but quarter the slot capacity for them. This would also be good for the early trap for new players of trying to hand craft or move lots of items and will push people into realising its time for more assemblers, more belts or time to start that train network.

Then to rebalance the trains give them deeper stacks (the same amount as currently). You could also have the warehouse type building people mention with the same increased stack depth, possibly with fewer actual slots for the large buffer and unloading scenarios. This also has a nice balancing decision between things designed for mass storage of a few things vs a few of many things.

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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by bobucles » Fri May 20, 2016 7:31 pm

Perhaps instead of changing the slot count, perhaps the stacking size of items could be changed? Not too long ago assemblers were changed to store arbitrary amounts of materials in order to build things. Because of that change, the 200 stack of green circuits no longer has any reason to stay. A single slot could very well hold 20 circuits today and the major change for the player is to just liek build moar factory instead of stashing all these raw materials on hand.

The only thing that needs high capacity storage is a train car, and that can be taken care of without much difficulty.

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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by RiiDii » Fri May 18, 2018 6:12 am

The balance between cargo wagons, chests, cars, tanks, and the player has bothered me as well. It feels like the cargo wagon should just carry more because it is bigger.

That said, there are some other logic issues. For example, storing a chest, the size of a chest, inside a chest. Tardis anyone? Or, even worse, storing 3x3 assembly machines inside a 1x1 chest. I won't even get into the volume and weight of all the cr*p the guy is carrying. So, I figure there must be something going on that we just don't see; some sort of energy ray that converts stuff. My guess, this ray makes things smaller and turns them into little energy cubes - like the dehydration tech from Megamind.
Megamind Dehydrated Fish Thingy.png
Megamind Dehydrated Fish Thingy.png (162.75 KiB) Viewed 315 times
Taking this idea a little further, perhaps instead of water, the shrunken factorio energy cubes are susceptible to vibrations. Just tossing them roughly to the ground causes things to revert back to their normal sizes and states. Chests have almost no vibrations, so you can store a lot without a lot of padding. Trains, on the other hand, have a lot vibrating going on, so a lot of the space is used to cushion these cubes against the rough train rides and occasional collisions. Tanks and cars need some cushioning because of blah-blah-unimportant-detailed-and-completely-made-up-explanation-blah-blah. And there you have it. It all makes perfect sense now.

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thereaverofdarkness
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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by thereaverofdarkness » Mon May 28, 2018 5:52 pm

This debate is going back and forth, saying the same two things:

1.) cargo wagon should carry more because it looks big
2.) cargo wagon should not carry more because that would make trains OP

Why not nerf the train in another area? The train moves like it's made from thin aluminum plates with an electric engine powered externally. It's way too fast and fuel-efficient. Why not increase the train's weight to a reasonable value? Then there's better reason to put more space on the train. Then increase the material cost of each car, and add a couple fuel slots to the engines. That will make the train more train-like, you know, heavy.

As for item storage, I think something like the Warehousing mod should be made vanilla, and it wouldn't hurt to reduce storage space of smaller chests after that. Once you start using large storage units for logistics, you won't want to go back. You can fit way more inserters onto one chest when it takes up more space. Also, there's a neat aspect to having storage actually take up a significant amount of space. The biggest problem with chests is that they're tiny, not that they hold a lot of stuff.

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bobingabout
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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by bobingabout » Tue May 29, 2018 8:42 am

Give the cargo wagon massive story space (120 slots perhaps?)

Add a weight penalty per slot with something in it. (Yes, dynamic weight)

result:
Empty train runs like it does now
full train runs like a lead brick being pulled by a snail.
in actually, the fully loaded single wagon would weigh about as much as 3 or 4 do now, which is why having 3 or 4 times the storage space makes sense.
Creator of Bob's mods. Expanding your gameplay since version 0.9.8.

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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by Adeon Hawkwood » Tue May 29, 2018 11:41 pm

Regarding larger chests, one thing to watch out for there is that multi-space chests essentially function as faster belts (not quite infinite speed, but only capped by stack insert speeds). People occasionally use cars or stationary train wagons in this manner already. This isn't a major concern with 2x2 or 3x3 chests (which would be pretty similar to the car/wagon option anyway) but if you allow flexible chest shapes you can get some ridiculous options.

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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by Hannu » Thu May 31, 2018 9:44 am

thereaverofdarkness wrote:This debate is going back and forth, saying the same two things:

1.) cargo wagon should carry more because it looks big
2.) cargo wagon should not carry more because that would make trains OP

Why not nerf the train in another area? The train moves like it's made from thin aluminum plates with an electric engine powered externally. It's way too fast and fuel-efficient. Why not increase the train's weight to a reasonable value? Then there's better reason to put more space on the train. Then increase the material cost of each car, and add a couple fuel slots to the engines. That will make the train more train-like, you know, heavy.
I agree this. Trains in Factorio are not like trains. They are some kind of ultra fast cargo tram system. I see that current choose give some elements in railway planning, because there must be very many very fast trains and player must avoid jamming. But I would prefer more realistic train logistics. Trains are slow but can haul huge amounts of stuff. Only large real factories need more than one train per a day to transport their raw materials and products. I would increase capacity of cargo wagon by factor of about 10 and limit acceleration, deceleration and speed to 80 km/h. Maybe rails could also be more expensive so that player could optimize between single track and double track layouts instead of 4 track systems wit crazy intersections. That would give a feeling about railroads and not toy train system. I would also increase energy consumption to be significant so that player would be motivated to create reasonable schedules. Currently it is just tedious work to put requester chest to all stops and one train to bring fuel to all factories, but it has absolutely no significance in base's energy budget.

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Lav
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Re: Balancing of Capacities of Containers

Post by Lav » Thu May 31, 2018 11:52 am

After two pages worth of discussion, I still fail to see the purpose. Pretty sure I'm not the only one.

Current system has one important advantage: it works and it's familiar to everyone.

Perhaps a mod is in order by one of proponents of this change, then there will be something tangible to discuss.

Another funny thing: people advocate increasing the train capacity and decreasing chest capacity. But increased train capacity means less frequent train trips, with much higher peaks in cargo transportation, which greatly increases the need for train station buffering, which requires bigger chest sizes... Kinda self-contradictory IMO.

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