Artillery too powerful even for late game?

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dpacbach
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Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by dpacbach » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:12 pm

Even though Artillery is a late-game feature, sometimes it still feels too powerful. With artillery I don't really have much need anymore to go to biter bases an engage in combat using all of the other possible weapons and tactics.

Factorio has many weapons that each have their own associated strategy for clearing biter bases and that can be fun; but it seems that access to artillery renders most other weapons/tactics mostly redundant.

In a way, having artillery somewhat also damages the value of nuclear... building nukes was likely one incentive to mine uranium and engage with all of those associated game mechanics, but when I have artillery it feels like I don't need nukes anymore, and so I don't build them given that they are quite expensive and more difficult/time-consuming to use.

Since artillery was only introduced in 0.16, perhaps it still needs some balancing?

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BlueTemplar
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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by BlueTemplar » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:46 pm

Isn't it the point? It's the super-expensive (mostly to research?) "game-ending superweapon"...

(Until we get better... Rocket-Silo launched Nukes with unlimited range carrying Multiple Independently Targetable Reentry Warheads please! :)
Then nerf artillery... maybe?)

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by theolderbeholder » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:48 am

short answer: No.


long answer: No. :mrgreen:

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by eradicator » Sun Aug 19, 2018 1:36 pm

Artillery was introduced to automate another aspect of building a factory: gaining land. All previous methods are manual. And a fully automated weapon will always feel "too powerful" to some people.

Luckily you can just write a mod and nerf it down however you like (cost/range/damage etc...)

@BlueTemplar: https://mods.factorio.com/mod/MIRV

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:46 am

:oops: should have searched for it !
Last edited by BlueTemplar on Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by Cribbit » Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:04 pm

I think you understimate how overpowered the equivalent late game technologies are. Laser in a power armor with a couple of shield modules let you literally run through biter bases obliterating them where you walk. Shells are expensive and the additional waves of attacks can be difficult to fight, still requiring a large coverage with normal turrets.

I do think it would be more interesting if artillery caused essentially a continuous wave of enemies, or spawned harder enemies than you'd normally see.

I think that the combat in the game is a good baseline, especially through the core game until/just after a rocket. I think mods allow expanding on it quite nicely. I think the devs have shown good goals in what they focus on feature wise.

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by BlueTemplar » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:10 pm

Cribbit wrote:Laser in a power armor with a couple of shield modules let you literally run through biter bases obliterating them where you walk.
Well, up to a point in enemy concentration and evolution - after that you have to use a tank, and with a couple of discharge defenses so that you don't get stuck !
Whereas biters have barely any defense against artillery.

Then also, even with the mk3 modules prerequisite (one of which is required for the rocket silo) and with the fusion reactor, the mk2 power armor is still "only" 1200 "Lemonade Bottles" compared to Artillery's 2k

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by drachma » Wed Aug 22, 2018 7:14 pm

Disagree. By the time I get artillery I have already spent tons of time grinding away the enemy bases using multiple different tactics and am quite sick of it - it becomes a chore really quickly. But I do like playing with biters on because they add some pressure to early and midgame, plus I enjoy designing epic endgame defense fortifications! =D

I see what you're saying about getting artillery before nukes and so having no impetus to use them... but that's not a reason to nerf artillery... maybe just move it around in the tech tree or add something else to make nukes more worthwhile. You still have to protect your artillery trains, use nukes for that.

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by Aeternus » Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:43 pm

Not sure what could be done about it. Biter bases that get an "Artillery shield"? A "return to sender" Biter that spawns, and lobs something back to your factory in retaliation? Outranging and bombarding static targets will always win against those...

What artillery could use is some weapon spread. Bombarding a huge base would be effective in thinning it out, but if you'd want to completely bomb the entire thing into submission you'd be expending a loooot of ammo and time. It would be more economic to drive over and finish the last biter remnants with a tank that way. Artillery never was pinpoint accurate until laser guided missiles were invented... the howitzer barrage that this artillery cannon looks to represent has no business being that accurate at the range it's firing at. Even a one degree spread (inaccuracy scaling with distance) would have a significant effect.

[Edit] I'd like Napalm shells though if we go that route. Aside from being the perfect weapon against Factorio's true enemies (trees) an inaccurate incendiary bombardment could be... nasty.

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by theolderbeholder » Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:32 pm

If you make artillery inaccurate, most of us will probably just doutriple the amount of guns. Can´t be bothered, just a logistic problem.

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by BlueTemplar » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:58 pm

Hmm, depends just *how* inaccurate? There's a cost balance there... (Especially with the shells!) Potential for range research decreasing accuracy, and a specific accuracy-increasing research?

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by Hannu » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:21 am

Cribbit wrote:I think you understimate how overpowered the equivalent late game technologies are. Laser in a power armor with a couple of shield modules let you literally run through biter bases obliterating them where you walk. Shells are expensive and the additional waves of attacks can be difficult to fight, still requiring a large coverage with normal turrets.
Overpowered related to what? It work as intended. Player can concentrate to building megabases or whatever he want to build and military operations are automated. Player is a general and manages defense and area expansion in higher level than earlier phases of the game. In my opinion it is good balance. I remember when I cleared 20 square kilometers with combat bots (before flame thrower came). It took several days very tedious and uninteresting grind even I played long sessions. Now I do not hesitate use commands if I need such operations. Gaming should be interesting entertainment and not boring work obeying artificial rules devs have invented. This is of course my opinion, I understand that people feel very different things entertaining or tedious.

But you may think from combat game point of view. Of course weapons are overpowered and Factorio is boring combat game. In my opinion Factorio should be building and logistics game with some relatively insignificant and decreasing during progress combat content. If some player wants to give more weight combat part he can mod the game or just refuse to use technologies he do not like. It works well, for example I never use beacons, because they are overpowered, unrealistic and easy and force to build unaesthetic production plants. I avoid also many techs in Bob's mods, like modules.
I do think it would be more interesting if artillery caused essentially a continuous wave of enemies, or spawned harder enemies than you'd normally see.
It is easy to mod weapons weaker so that current number of enemies cause more damage and takes more resources to defeat. That way is also more UPS friendly than increasing number of enemies.

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Re: Artillery too powerful even for late game?

Post by Cribbit » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:17 pm

Hannu wrote:
Cribbit wrote:I think you understimate how overpowered the equivalent late game technologies are. Laser in a power armor with a couple of shield modules let you literally run through biter bases obliterating them where you walk. Shells are expensive and the additional waves of attacks can be difficult to fight, still requiring a large coverage with normal turrets.
Overpowered related to what? It work as intended. Player can concentrate to building megabases or whatever he want to build and military operations are automated. Player is a general and manages defense and area expansion in higher level than earlier phases of the game. In my opinion it is good balance. I remember when I cleared 20 square kilometers with combat bots (before flame thrower came). It took several days very tedious and uninteresting grind even I played long sessions. Now I do not hesitate use commands if I need such operations. Gaming should be interesting entertainment and not boring work obeying artificial rules devs have invented. This is of course my opinion, I understand that people feel very different things entertaining or tedious.

But you may think from combat game point of view. Of course weapons are overpowered and Factorio is boring combat game. In my opinion Factorio should be building and logistics game with some relatively insignificant and decreasing during progress combat content. If some player wants to give more weight combat part he can mod the game or just refuse to use technologies he do not like. It works well, for example I never use beacons, because they are overpowered, unrealistic and easy and force to build unaesthetic production plants. I avoid also many techs in Bob's mods, like modules.

You misunderstand me, I'm not saying overpowered is bad. Simply that people shouldn't complain artillery is overpowered, because it's intended to be, like all other late game combat tech.

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