Adv. circuit - craftingTime rebalancing

[MisterSpock]

Let me explain why the crafting time is too high at the moment:

The main use of circuits are crafting moduls:

Crafting a Tier 3 Modul requieres 915 Electronic circuit, 175 Advanced circuit and 25 Processing Unit.
A good ratio of assembly machines are 5:15:4 (Electronic circuit:Advanced circuit:Processing Unit).

In my understand of balancing, there should not be such a diffrence.
I suggest: Reducing the crafting time for Advanced circuits from 8s to 2-4s.

PS: I am open for a discussion. Maybe my view is wrong.

[Ohlmann]

I don't think that each kind of component in something have to take roughly the same amount of assembling time. Also, shouldn't you craft a gigantic pile of advanced circuit as soon as you can ?

[Robbedem]

I agree. I have made an excel spreadsheet to calculate the number of needed factories to have 1 module 2 factory working at full capacity.
All factories are fairly balanced, except Advanced circuits (exluding mines and ovens, they are needed even more).
highest numbers (apart from mines/ovens):
- Plastic Bars: 3
- Processing Units: 3
- Electorinc Circuits: 5
- Copper Cable: 9
- Advanced Circuits: 16

If productivity modules are used, the balance gets even worse (2 productivity modules 2 where it can):
- Electronic Circuits: 6
- Copper Cable: 10
- Advanced Circuits: 20

A time reduction for Advanced Circuits from 8s to 6s - 4s, would be right IMO. (2s would be too low for me)

[Kazuar]

I disagree. I feel the production time on advanced circuits is okay, they are an endgame-ish intermediate, after all - if you need more, build more factories/smelters/miners

If anything, the crafting time on regular circuits should be upped to 1.5-2 seconds
To elaborate on that opinion, almost all items require just 0.5 seconds to build, with only very few exceptions, and especially on buildings, this feels very off. I think the build time needed for oil-related buildings "feels" right, just as advanced circuits do, to the point where it feels to me that 0.5 seconds crafting time in general is just a placeholder, until actual balancing of build times is even considered (imho).

Point in case: regular inserters require 0.5 seconds to craft as well, and it feels unbalanced, again imho, that a single assembler producing inserters can supply 6 green beaker assemblers plus 12(!!) blue beaker assemblers, all by itself (ignoring the two intermediate yellow->blue inserter and blue->green inserter assemblers).

One assembler (sans modules) should not be able to supply eighteen assemblers (sans modules).

[Robbedem]

The reason why inserters are made quickly is because of gameplay, since many people will make a lot of inserters manually. That's why assemblers, pipes, transport belts, miners,... have a (unrealistic) short building time too.

I guess the production time for electronic circuits could go up a little, processing units could be made slower too. Advanced circuits should be made a bit faster though.

[Koub]

I'm ok with the idea that mid-endgame items, kind of items you're more or less supposed to craft automatically, may be pretty long to craft : if I want more, I just double the number of assembly machines, and that's it.
On the other hand, I think that the items you'll naturally craft manually (and abundantly) throughout the beginning of the game (inserters, transport belts, splitters, copper cable, gear wheels, electric poles, ...) are OK with a very fast craft time. In my opinion, you don't necessarily make a game better simply by adding constraints on whatever is OK just for the sake of "when it's harder it's better".

[MisterSpock]

The reason why inserters are made quickly is because of gameplay, since many people will make a lot of inserters manually. That's why assemblers, pipes, transport belts, miners,... have a (unrealistic) short building time too.

I guess the production time for electronic circuits could go up a little, processing units could be made slower too. Advanced circuits should be made a bit faster though.

I agree. Something like this.

[Rahjital]

I don't think the crafting time of advanced circuits should be reduced. It's currently one of the leading factors for industrialisation - while you can craft items requiring the circuits manually for a while, you'll need to automate the process if you ever want to have plenty of roboports or other things consuming plenty of the circuits.

If anything, the time for crafting processing units should be increased, perhaps even doubled. It's an endgame item, so it makes sense that producing them in numbers should require a great investment.

[Kazuar]

The reason why inserters are made quickly is because of gameplay, since many people will make a lot of inserters manually. That's why assemblers, pipes, transport belts, miners,... have a (unrealistic) short building time too.

I kindly disagree again. Many people will make lots of inserters manually because of the short build time, not the other way around. Also, a 3 to 4 second build time would still be kinda short - short enough, at least, for small-ish amounts. If you need dozens of inserters, go build a factory . Personally, I don't think the convenience for manual crafting should be a big concern outside of burner-stage equipment; this is a game about automation, after all.
Point in case: if Advanced Circuits had a crafting time of 0.5 or 1 second, I wouldn't even bother automating it except for blue beakers and modules - at that point, pretty much the only incentive for actually designing a factory would be research.

I'm ok with the idea that mid-endgame items, kind of items you're more or less supposed to craft automatically, may be pretty long to craft : if I want more, I just double the number of assembly machines, and that's it.
On the other hand, I think that the items you'll naturally craft manually (and abundantly) throughout the beginning of the game (inserters, transport belts, splitters, copper cable, gear wheels, electric poles, ...) are OK with a very fast craft time.

I agree with the idea of that, but don't agree completly with your list of early game items. The game begins at the burner stage, burner inserters are imho completly fine with a 0.5-1 second build time. Electric inserters require electricity, electricity requires setup (and imho, steam engines could stand a 20 second build time - it works for pump jacks and oil refineries!). That being said, I do miss a burner assembler.
One might say that the burner stage is not relevant, since electricity is sooo easy to achieve right after a fresh start, and sooo much better than using burner stuff, and I concur that electricity is very easy to obtain. I will say, though, that if the burner stage can be skipped almost entirely and immediatly, it should be removed altogether (what is the point of a burner inserter if no one will ever ever feel justified crafting one?). It boils down to the question what one should be supposed to craft automatically. Sorry for the slightly off-topic tangent, though.

In my opinion, you don't necessarily make a game better simply by adding constraints on whatever is OK just for the sake of "when it's harder it's better".

I don't think it it a point of difficulty or constraint, though. I think it is a point of credibility - one machine suppling 18(!!) machines just feels "off", nothing more. Creating an automated supply chain does not become more difficult just because you need to place 4 assemblers instead of 1.

[vmetal]

Just think like this, the trailer on the main page would be less interesting if you didn´t need a ton of factories to get stuff going at a reasonable pace ^^

[tralala]

I think 8s are appropriate. If you're mass building modules you need indeed lots of adv. circuits assembler - but I find that appropriate. There should be circumstances where a few assemblers aren't enough.
As for build times, the most ridiculous are those for accus and solar panels with 0.5 s respectively.
The stuff you need in the beginning and throughout the game constantly (like belts and inserters) I'm okay with it taking only a very short time. Although I wouldn't mind longer build times for advanced inserters and advanced belts.

[tralala]

I don't think it it a point of difficulty or constraint, though. I think it is a point of credibility - one machine suppling 18(!!) machines just feels "off", nothing more. Creating an automated supply chain does not become more difficult just because you need to place 4 assemblers instead of 1.

It is challenging to supply adv. circuit assemblers with cables in an efficient manner exactly because you have very fast producing cable assemblers and very slow but many adv. circuits assemblers. This is a major source of fun for me. See this module factory design.

[Ohlmann]

I agree with tralala. And seriously, it's unrealistic to expect that every step will require the same amount of effort.

[Kazuar]

I don't think it it a point of difficulty or constraint, though. I think it is a point of credibility - one machine suppling 18(!!) machines just feels "off", nothing more. Creating an automated supply chain does not become more difficult just because you need to place 4 assemblers instead of 1.

It is challenging to supply adv. circuit assemblers with cables in an efficient manner exactly because you have very fast producing cable assemblers and very slow but many adv. circuits assemblers. This is a major source of fun for me. See this module factory design.

That comment was meant to be a reference to the current inserter->science ratio ( ), although that is a very, very sweet factory there. Now that is the scale I'd like to see become necessary by mid-game (as opposed to late-game, which tier 3 modules are imho). But, there's the "It boils down to the question what one should be supposed to craft automatically" tangent again...

(Seriously, though, nice factory )

[MisterSpock]

I think 8s are appropriate. If you're mass building modules you need indeed lots of adv. circuits assembler - but I find that appropriate. There should be circumstances where a few assemblers aren't enough.
As for build times, the most ridiculous are those for accus and solar panels with 0.5 s respectively.
The stuff you need in the beginning and throughout the game constantly (like belts and inserters) I'm okay with it taking only a very short time. Although I wouldn't mind longer build times for advanced inserters and advanced belts.

Solar panel crafting time makes using machines obsolet. Tier 2 and 3 circuits are ok. In my opinion fast/smart inserter can be 1-2s. T2 / T3 Belts too. To force the player crafting it with machines.

[Marconos]

I don't think it it a point of difficulty or constraint, though. I think it is a point of credibility - one machine suppling 18(!!) machines just feels "off", nothing more. Creating an automated supply chain does not become more difficult just because you need to place 4 assemblers instead of 1.

Compare this to real world manufacturing ... company I used to work for. 40 presses feeding 4 kilns feeding 8 grinders. It really depends on the complexity of the step that you are on. It is VERY realistic to have one machine feeding a ton. Heck forming metal into wire is much faster than creating a printed circuit board.

[Kazuar]

Compare this to real world manufacturing ... company I used to work for. 40 presses feeding 4 kilns feeding 8 grinders. It really depends on the complexity of the step that you are on. It is VERY realistic to have one machine feeding a ton. Heck forming metal into wire is much faster than creating a printed circuit board.

I have no problem with 18 machines feeding one, to be honest, or 10 feeding one like in your example. Also, I was deliberatly avoiding the word realism - I'm not arguing realism and I hold that gameplay>realism. That platitude of mine aside, all I'm saying that it just feels "wrong" (as in: unsatisfying or imbalanced), not that I think it'd be unrealistic.

Now, to specificly respond to your last two sentences, especially the very last one:

First, this is very dependand on how much of a thing the abstract concept "1 item of x" refers to in a specific context, i.e. how many meters of copper, and with what diameter, is "1xCopper Cable". All we know is

• It's the same material, element-wise.
  It's made from uniform, refined plates.
  It's made in a flake-free process.
  It's 1/2 of a copper plate in 'stuff'
  It's 1/4 of a copper plate in volume
  WAIT, WHAT?!?

Also, a wooden crate can contain 800 perfect, assembled copies of itself, but only if assembled - if it's processed but otherwise unworked, solid wood (i.e. without empty spaces to contain stuff), it can only contain 200 chests of worth, but if it's unprocessed, raw wood with the bark and the knobs still on, it can contain 400 chests of worth. *insert Jackie Chan meme*

We won't ever be able make approximate guesses as to the RL-equivalent of "1 item of x", ever. Also, I don't feel a problem with any of that.

Second, the specific manufacturing step we're on in my "1 to 18" comparision is the complete construction of a robotic arm capable (by itelf!) to identify, track, and transport item's of varying size, weight and hardness (ranging from what appears to be a single coil of copper wire to life-sized, fully functional diesel trains) as well as the ability to self-adjust the firmness of it's grip depending on what it picks up, so as to not break glass, "from the ground up" out of plates, gears and circuits, necessiating everything from "bending iron into shape" over "assemble gear mechanism" to "program the EEPROM".

It's not something we can easily compare with the complexity of drawing a wire, is what im saying .

PS: I swear, I wanted to make a short, concise post this time.

[ssilk]

You are pointing here at some interesting missbalancing which is in my eyes open to change, cause it is not very gameplay relevant, but - you are right - from the logic somehow distracting.

Why not make a balancing suggestion out of that?

[Kazuar]

You are pointing here at some interesting missbalancing which is in my eyes open to change, cause it is not very gameplay relevant, but - you are right - from the logic somehow distracting.

Why not make a balancing suggestion out of that?

I'm unsure to which point you refer to?

[ssilk]

That with the raw wood and wooden crate. This is just the other way around than with ore .